Would "Sioux" Be Acceptable?

[JESUS,family,rutgers]

If the word "Fighting" was taken out of "Fighting Sioux", would that be acceptable to Indians and to North Dakota sports fans?

"

[Siouxmama]

I think the Sioux tribes (or SOME of their enrolled members) are just against UND using any form of Sioux. They won't be happy until we bow down and give up that name.

[redwing77]

I think the Sioux tribes (or SOME of their enrolled members) are just against UND using any form of Sioux. They won't be happy until we bow down and give up that name.

Precisely.

It doesn't matter what we say. We could be the "Peaceful Sioux" or the "Graceful Sioux" or the "Awesome Sioux." It won't matter. The word "Sioux" is being used and the ultra-PC and the tribal elders won't care.

This is their chance to dictate policy and make some waves. It may not be the most positive way to do it, but the victim card will be greatly reinforced by this victory.

[Goon]

To the pro name change crowd anything less than changing Sioux or Fighting Sioux will be acceptable.

[GeauxSioux]

Okay, so the name Sioux would be gone in this excercise. Lets keep the Fighting part of it. How about the "Fighting Dakotans"? Of course they wouldn't let UND keep the logo, so use a Nordic looking guy as the logo.

[Goon]

How about the "Fighting Dakotans"?

I like it and could live with it. How about Norse?

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

How about the "Fighting Dakotans"? Of course they wouldn't let UND keep the logo, so use a Nordic looking guy as the logo.

Sure, you could use "Dakotans". Until someone claims ownership of THAT word.

But how about a picture (or pictures) of a random protestor as the logo? One day a priviliged, out-of-touch-with-reality professor. The next day it would rotate to being a picture of a person who found his Native American heritage late in life; someone who feels unfairly persecuted by others and and uses randomly targeted outrage against society as a boost to his own ego... the possibilites are there. Those people are definitely "fighting".

Really, it could be anyone

but

your Board of Trustees.

[darell1976]

Sure, you could use "Dakotans". Until someone claims ownership of THAT word.

But how about a picture (or pictures) of a random protestor as the logo? One day a priviliged, out-of-touch-with-reality professor. The next day it would rotate to being a picture of a person who found his Native American heritage late in life; someone who feels unfairly persecuted by others and and uses randomly targeted outrage against society as a boost to his own ego... the possibilites are there. Those people are definitely "fighting".

Really, it could be anyone

but

your Board of Trustees.

As a Dakotan I claim ownership of that name but i do give UND permisson to use the word as a nickname provided i get some incentives...like season tickets to all Sioux sporting events.

[Sioux-cia]

If the word "Fighting" was taken out of "Fighting Sioux", would that be acceptable to Indians and to North Dakota sports fans?

"

No.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

No.

I agree, this would not satisfy the protestors.

To get back to the original question, this is a popular misconception IMHO: it was discussed repeatedly at Illinois also. I really don't think the objection is to the "fighting" nomenclature, despite the ceaseless rhetoric saying "you're misrepresenting us as warlike savages".

This is just one aspect of the Hydra of objections raised by the various professional protestors. It's not the be all/end all of the protest IMHO. The real objection is to "Sioux" in this case: and that's because they can claim ownership of this word.

At FSU, Chief Osceola comes out on horseback with a flaming spear and flings it into the ground (BTW, directly into their warrior symbol painted at midfield) and the Seminoles don't protest. If this doesn't symbolize "fighting" I don't know what would.

[Fetch]

Fighting Cavalry

[Sioux-cia]

Fighting Cavalry

No.

[redwing77]

No.

Maybe not, but it would prove the point "It could always be worse."

Chief- If we became the Fighting Cavalry, perhaps we can have some guy dress up as Custer, ride out into midfield, and thrust a bayonetted replica Civil War era rifle into the emblem.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Chief- If we became the Fighting Cavalry, perhaps we can have some guy dress up as Custer, ride out into midfield, and thrust a bayonetted replica Civil War era rifle into the emblem.

I personally am a big fan of solutions that make the original whiners even more annoyed: "hey, you got what you wanted, we don't have a "hostile and abusive" Indian name anymore. What do you mean, this is warlike? Tell that to Annapolis, West Point, Colorado Springs and places like the Citadel-they've had exactly the same type of nickname for years."

In that spirit, I can tell you that one t-shirt being sold by the official merchandise sponsor of our athletics department has a very simple design, looking a bit like

this

only with the details filled in. Yes, IMHO it looks even more cartoonish than our late, lamented "retired" symbol. But OTOH, the University doesn't hold a copyright on this drawing.

(And Blackhawk hats, t-shirts, sweatshirts, etc. are still very available from Chicago to Champaign. I've already written to them suggesting the Hawk's symbol on an Orange t-shirt would be a big seller.)

I think the protestors at Illinois are getting a lesson in the immutable "Law of Unintended Consequences".

Off this subject: Dennis Savard was fired as the coach of the Blackhawks last week: last year he coined the phrase "Commit to the Indian" which caused a tempest in a teapot among certain newspaper writers with little else to write about.

[wilson]

How about the "North Stars".

[sioux7>5]

I still like Cavalry! I think it would be a nice way to honor the military.

[Esoxpirate]

How about Fighting Sue....

I kinda like calvary as well...

Esox

[darell1976]

How about the "North Stars".

Then eventually the University would have to move to Dallas.

[redwing77]

I personally am a big fan of solutions that make the original whiners even more annoyed: "hey, you got what you wanted, we don't have a "hostile and abusive" Indian name anymore. What do you mean, this is warlike? Tell that to Annapolis, West Point, Colorado Springs and places like the Citadel-they've had exactly the same type of nickname for years."

In that spirit, I can tell you that one t-shirt being sold by the official merchandise sponsor of our athletics department has a very simple design, looking a bit like

this

only with the details filled in. Yes, IMHO it looks even more cartoonish than our late, lamented "retired" symbol. But OTOH, the University doesn't hold a copyright on this drawing.

(And Blackhawk hats, t-shirts, sweatshirts, etc. are still very available from Chicago to Champaign. I've already written to them suggesting the Hawk's symbol on an Orange t-shirt would be a big seller.)

I think the protestors at Illinois are getting a lesson in the immutable "Law of Unintended Consequences".

Off this subject: Dennis Savard was fired as the coach of the Blackhawks last week: last year he coined the phrase "Commit to the Indian" which caused a tempest in a teapot among certain newspaper writers with little else to write about.

It would be funny if someone asked our Custer mascot about his stance on the Sioux. I'd roar in laughter if he responded:

"The Sioux? Well, I'd reckon they're out there somewhere. Go ask them!"

[GeauxSioux]

I'm sure that some who have posted they like the name Cavalry have done it in jest, but I'm sure there are some who are serious.

I have been of the mindset that the majority of the people at both Standing Rock and Spirit Lake are not against the Fighting Sioux name and in general are supportive of UND. There is a small group at both places that have the loud voice and want the name changed at any cost. If UND were to change to the Cavalry moniker, Ron His Horse of Thunder and his crew would be happy, because they won and the name has been changed, but you would likely anger the very people who have been supportive of the Fighting Sioux name.

Cavalry

$0.02

[UND92,96]

I'm sure that some who have posted they like the name Cavalry have done it in jest, but I'm sure there are some who are serious.

I have been of the mindset that the majority of the people at both Standing Rock and Spirit Lake are not against the Fighting Sioux name and in general are supportive of UND. There is a small group at both places that have the loud voice and want the name changed at any cost. If UND were to change to the Cavalry moniker, Ron His Horse of Thunder and his crew would be happy, because they won and the name has been changed, but you would likely anger the very people who have been supportive of the Fighting Sioux name.

Cavalry

$0.02

Wasn't it Ron McNeil himself who floated the idea of "Roughriders" as a replacement for Fighting Sioux? From Theodore Roosevelt's wikipedia bio:

With the aid of U.S. Army Colonel Leonard Wood, Roosevelt found volunteers from cowboys from the Western territories to Ivy League friends from New York, forming the First U.S. Volunteer Cavalry Regiment. The newspapers called them the "Rough Riders."

I don't honestly think the Board would ever allow "Cavalry" anyway, but if it did happen and some Native Americans didn't like it, as far as I'm concerned it could be blamed on Ron--both in terms of the dropping of the "Fighting Sioux" name and logo, and the replacement name. I'm comfortable with that.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

I'm sure that some who have posted they like the name Cavalry have done it in jest, but I'm sure there are some who are serious.

I have been of the mindset that the majority of the people at both Standing Rock and Spirit Lake are not against the Fighting Sioux name and in general are supportive of UND. There is a small group at both places that have the loud voice and want the name changed at any cost.

I agree that there is a small group that is the loudest. But exactly what that much larger group

does

feel is unknown IMHO. Are they supportive of your nickname? Are they (silently) in agreement with people like Ron His Horse is Thunder? Or are they simply indifferent and couldn't care less one way or another?

It's JMHO but if the latter is true, then whatever nickname the school changes to (if they are forced to change at all) should meet with that same apathy/indifference by those who are apathetic today.

If UND were to change to the Cavalry moniker, Ron His Horse of Thunder and his crew would be happy, because they won and the name has been changed, but you would likely anger the very people who have been supportive of the Fighting Sioux name.

Cavalry

$0.02

That may be true. But once the nickname goes, it goes

FOREVER

: and the leverage both Ron/Thunder and the tribes overall currently enjoy over your University disappears also.

If a failure of leadership by Ron/Thunder and the rest of the Tribal elected officials causes a majority of the common people to fail to understand why the school suddenly has "Cavalry" (or any other nickname that those people dislike nearly as much as Sioux) then they'll need to take out their anger on their representatives on the next election day, according to the laws set up under their Tribal Constitution. Or, as noted above if they are indifferent then they'll vote according to different criteria.

JMHO (or my $0.02

)

...but if it did happen and some Native Americans didn't like it, as far as I'm concerned it could be blamed on Ron--both in terms of the dropping of the "Fighting Sioux" name and logo, and the replacement name. I'm comfortable with that.

100% agreement. Be careful what you wish for Ron-you just might get it. (And as far as I'm concerned, if some of the anger spilled over into those activist/busybody/perptual malcontent profs and other hangers-on I wouldn't feel too badly either.)

[Goon]

There is a small group at both places that have the loud voice and want the name changed at any cost.

Cavalry

$0.02

Yep a vocal minority...