Recruiting Issues

[jk]

I'm thinking a few things about recruiting.

First, I have noted the trend in college hockey toward kids committing very early, as early as their freshman year of high school. I can't imagine that it's a very healthy trend for schools or kids, but I guess if you have a chance at a Parise or Crosby or Pineault type of player, you take them.

Second, since UND doesn't seem to be participating in this trend, I wonder what kind of players will be left when UND gets around to signing players. I recognize that some guys are late bloomers, like Bochenski and Prpich. But will most of the great players be spoken for?

Third, I'm curious about UND's needs for the 2004 and 2005 classes. For 2004, UND currently has commitments from one goalie (Lammy), one defenseman (Beaverson) and no forwards. Considering the size of the current junior class, I'm guessing that numbers aren't a big priority for 2004. Still, depending on a host of factors, a pretty large group of players could leave for the pros after next year (if they don't leave this summer). The list of possible departures over the next few years could include Bochenski, Parise, Stafford, Schneider, Jones, Greene and Smaby. I'm not saying they're all stars or that any will necessarily be ready to go, but blue-chip recruits are focused on getting to the next level.

For 2005, all these players will be gone: Lundbohm, Hale, Palmiscno, Canady, Connelly, Bochenski, Massen, McMahon, Fylling, Genoway, Schneider, Jones and Fuher. In addition, Parise and Greene would be pretty big early departure risks. So Blais will need another big class. With so many young kids committing early, I hope the staff has a game plan for restocking the program.

[OETKB]

I too have been wondering why there are zero offensive recruits for the '04-05 season. Recently, we've had at least one recruit who was announced two years early.

Not that I'm really worried about UND's recruiting. Murray, Stafford & Smaby are all excellent catches. J. Parise & Ziggy aren't too shaby, either. Mostly, I'm just anxious to see who else we can nab to make UND's offense the powerhouse it used to be.

[Superman0099]

I agree. In a couple of years UND will take a big hit in numbers. Many graduating and I would be shocked if some did not leave early. I'm impressed with the recruits coming in, Murray, Stafford and Smaby are all great recruits for this upcoming season. I think this year UND will have one of the best offensive squads in the country. But after that, alot of things could change. I know that one of the Lamoureux's who plays forward (I think it's Jacque..) is not going to GFC next year, but to SSM. Blais has created sort of a pipeline to SSM, I would guess that we will be seeing some of their best talent come through UND in the future. However, It would be interesting to see if they recruited some players from the BCHL. I know there alot of great players in that league, and some feel that it holds better competition than the USHL. A few canadians here and there couldn't hurt, eh?

[mksioux]

However, It would be interesting to see if they recruited some players from the BCHL. I know there alot of great players in that league, and some feel that it holds better competition than the USHL.

Certain Gopher fans will disagree that statement. They claim the BCHL is defensively weak. Since I've never been to a BCHL game, I'll reserve judgment. However, I will say that I've liked many of the BCHL recruits that have come to UND in the past.

[sprig]

Certain Gopher fans will disagree that statement. They claim the BCHL is defensively weak. Since I've never been to a BCHL game, I'll reserve judgment. However, I will say that I've liked many of the BCHL recruits that have come to UND in the past.

From all I've seen of past Sioux players and watching Canadian Juniors as well as lower level Canadian hockey, still the one advantage they have over American hockey players is how well they play defensively, at any level. It's what helped so many of those Sioux players step right into the NHL. The majority of college hockey players in more recent years (obviously there are exceptions) need to spend time in the minors improving their defensive game.

In addition, those Canadians that came in as freshmen were immediately productive and effective players, didn't need that year or two to mature (80-83 Sioux) like the current crop of American recruits seem to need (2002 Sioux). Course, most of those Canadians were gone to the NHL by the time they would have been juniors.

College has, imo, become a much more offensive game than it was in the 70's and 80's, more wide open and, many would say, more entertaining. I guess I'm basing this on my perception of the Sioux, however, as SL is posting on uscho that the game has become more defensive. From a Gopher point of view, I could agree with that, but I don't know that any teams, past or present, could match the defensive hockey played by UND and Wisco in the early 80's.

I'd love to see the Sioux get back into recruiting a few more Canadian Junior players. Many came from the SJHL in the past, as well as the BCHL.

[dagies]

With the knock on Blais that he recruited some guys too quickly like Brandt and Sedevie it doesn't bother me that he's not locking up high school sophomores. On the other hand, I can understand the concern about whether or not any blue chip players will be be uncommitted by the time they are juniors and seniors. I guess I am ok with losing out on some of the very very top guys if it means you eliminate some of the duds by not recruiting them too early. And enough very good players will still be available later that if you do a very good job of recruiting them you won't have to worry about the few very top guys you never had a chance at.

As for numbers, just a couple of years ago Blais had about all his recruiting done about 2 years ahead of schedule, or so it seemed to me. It is a bit surprising we aren't seeing more for the 2004 year even, but I'll be late this summer and fall we'll see slots in 2004 and 05 start filling pretty quickly.

It is a daunting list of players that will be gone in 2.

[dagies]

With the knock on Blais that he recruited some guys too quickly like Brandt and Sedevie it doesn't bother me that he's not locking up high school sophomores. On the other hand, I can understand the concern about whether or not any blue chip players will be be uncommitted by the time they are juniors and seniors. I guess I am ok with losing out on some of the very very top guys if it means you eliminate some of the duds by not recruiting them too early. And enough very good players will still be available later that if you do a very good job of recruiting them you won't have to worry about the few very top guys you never had a chance at.

As for numbers, just a couple of years ago Blais had about all his recruiting done about 2 years ahead of schedule, or so it seemed to me. It is a bit surprising we aren't seeing more for the 2004 year even, but I'll be late this summer and fall we'll see slots in 2004 and 05 start filling pretty quickly.

It is a daunting list of players that will be gone in 2.

[ScottM]

Certain Gopher fans will disagree that statement. They claim the BCHL is defensively weak. Since I've never been to a BCHL game, I'll reserve judgment. However, I will say that I've liked many of the BCHL recruits that have come to UND in the past.

One of the things I've always like about the Canadian leagues is that they tend to produce hardnosed, two-way players who aren't afraid to play 30-35 minutes a game. I've always been a fan of the western leagues especially the BCHL. I'd rather Blais spend more time/recruiting dollars in the BCHL to bring in brutal, capable players than bringing in local kids *just* because they went to Central, RR or wherever, and certain fans still get their panties in a bunch because the Potluny brothers and Dan Irmen went to Minnesota.

I'm not worried about losing some sophomore "star" to another school. I'm more worried about the guys just playing their game, and let Blais et al. worry about filling whatever gaps may develop over time.

[skateshattrick]

ScottM, I'm not sure what you are implying. Are you implying that the Potulny's and Irmen are "just" ordinary players and that fans want to see them "just" because they went to Red River or Central? If that is what you are implying, then you are dead wrong.

The Sioux have had token local players in the past, including some of the Marvins from Warroad and a few local kids from Minot and Grand Forks. However, make no mistake about the 3 at the Gophers. Ryan Potulny is only a graduating high school senior, and was the leading scorer and MVP of the USHL. Danny Irmen may have been Ryan's biggest competition if not for an injury that forced him to miss a number of early games. Steve Johnson has said that Danny has the most upside of any player he coached at Lincoln, the USHL champs. Grant Potulny is the captain on the 2 time defending champs, and was MVP of the 2002 national championship. You will not find better quality than Ryan and Danny anywhere, whether it be the USHL, the BCHL or the SJHL. By your logic, Jeff Panzer was "just" a local kid that was recruited because of his local connections. If you recall, when Jeff was recruited, the headline and article focused nearly exclusively upon Wes Dorey, who tore up the Canadian junior leagues and had a ton of points. Is there any question who turned out better? Can you name 5 players from the BCHL in the past 5 years who are better than Jeff Panzer?

I understand your point that the BCHL has turned out some excellent players and that the Sioux have had great success with players from Western Canada. However, you paint with far too wide of a brush when you label all local kids as token or insinuate that people just want local kids because they went to Red River and Central.

Sioux fans do not want token local kids that will not produce. However, when the local kids are equal or better to competition from Canada and elsewhere and are true blue chip players like Ryan Potulny and Danny Irmen, then we do want to see them in a Sioux uniform, moreso than kids from Western Canada. At the very least, those kids should be recruited. There is no excuse for not recruiting Danny Irmen despite Hakstol's arrogant claim that you can't get them all. I can think of at least 5 forwards on this team on scholarship who are not even in Danny Irmen's class. It would have hurt to see Jeff Panzer be a Hobey Baker finalist for the Gophers. Irmen and Potulny have that kind of talent.

[ScottM]

The Potulny's and Irmen are top-flight talent, and any team would be blessed to have them wear the uniform.

However, a number of Sioux fans, including some on this board, adopt the "recruit him because he went to Central or RR" or whatever school, or his dad played in the 70s. or 80s. That's the same homerism that put Minnesota into the crapper under Woog. Young Moreland is a great example, so are the comments about Ziggy and Lamaroux. Not to say these guys aren't talented or won't contribute in college. Their point seems to be that recruit the local kid, first and worry about his ability, second. Naturally, a number of local kids possess great talent, e.g., Panzer's, Schneider, Furher, etc. However, I'd prefer to focus on talent first, and recruit players from wherever ... and I don't care if we have a roster full of Canadians and Minnesotans to have a winning program. Just like in the past.

[skateshattrick]

I agree with you completely ScottM. However, I did not understand your comment that certain fans still get their panties in a bunch because Potulny and Irmen went to Minnesota. Count me among them, not because they went there, but because it seemed avoidable. UND did not recruit Grant and instead recruited the kid from Edina, who transferred to Wisconsin, and is now out of hockey. Even if the Sioux were not thrilled with Grant, they had to know that would have on effect on Ryan who was very well known even as a Pee Wee and Bantam as a blue chip talent. It certainly was a hot topic in Grand Forks at the time the Gophers recruited Grant. I realize, however, that you cannot get all of them, so the Sioux deserved the benefit of the doubt on that one. However, when Danny Irmen gets full-ride offers from Minnesota and CC and the Sioux don't even bother to call him until AFTER he commits to Minnesota, that one justifiably ticked a lot of people off. I have seen Danny play since he was a squirt and I know how good he is and will be. That one I place squarely on Hakstol. In my opinion, the Sioux coaching staff deserves to hear about that one.

By the way, Phillipe Lamoreaux is also very good. His numbers speak for his ability. If he was not very good, Minnesota would not have recruited him knowing full well that his father played at UND.

[Superman0099]

There is no excuse for not recruiting Danny Irmen despite Hakstol's arrogant claim that you can't get them all. I can think of at least 5 forwards on this team on scholarship who are not even in Danny Irmen's class. It would have hurt to see Jeff Panzer be a Hobey Baker finalist for the Gophers. Irmen and Potulny have that kind of talent.

Trust me, if you knew these kids, you would know they don't do a damn thing without each other. I swear they are bonded at the hip and sometimes share a brain, but they can really, really, play hockey.

[skateshattrick]

I don't disagree that Danny Irmen and Ryan Potulny are close, and Danny may well have gone to Minnesota anyway. However, I do know Danny and his dad, Don, and I can tell you that they were not happy that Danny was not recruited by the Sioux until after committing to the Gophers. The Sioux recruited Ryan Kraft and Karl Goehring even though it was rumored they would go to the Gophers. It made both of their decisions difficult, and Karl was ultimately swayed to go to UND.

[Slap Shot]

I don't know that we're ever to see offensive numbers like we saw from Broten-Broten-Erickson or Kariya-Montgomery-Ingraham anytime soon. It'd be interesting to see a comparison of overall GAA from year to year.

[sprig]

I don't know that we're ever to see offensive numbers like we saw from Broten-Broten-Erickson or Kariya-Montgomery-Ingraham anytime soon. It'd be interesting to see a comparison of overall GAA from year to year.

Very rare for anyone to put together lines like those. Have any idea how their numbers for a year compared to Lundbohm-Panzer-Bayda?

[Slap Shot]

Very rare for anyone to put together lines like those. Have any idea how their numbers for a year compared to Lundbohm-Panzer-Bayda?

Good question:

'81

N. Broten 17 54 71

A. Broten 47 59 106

B. Erickson 39 47 86 (btw, Ulseth also had 93 points that season)

'93

P. Kariya 25 75 100

M. Montgomery 32 63 95

C. Ingraham 46 39 85

'01

J. Panzer 26 55 81

B. Lundbohm 32 37 69

R. Bayda 25 34 59

[Shawn-O]

Let's add the Hrkac Circus numbers to the discussion:

'87 (48 games)

T. Hrkac 46-70-116

B. Joyce 52-37- 89

S. Johnson 26-44- 70

[PCM]

There is no excuse for not recruiting Danny Irmen despite Hakstol's arrogant claim that you can't get them all.

Stating the obvious is arrogant?

I can think of at least 5 forwards on this team on scholarship who are not even in Danny Irmen's class.

Of course, Irmen hasn't played a minute of college hockey yet, so it's rather presumptious at this point to class him against known quantities.

[MinnesotaNorthStar]

It made both of their decisions difficult, and Karl was ultimately swayed to go to UND.

It has been my understanding (and please, correct me if I am wrong because I might be) that Woog didn't want Goerhing, or didn't offer him enough, which is why he went here.

Second of all, just be cause a kid is good in PeeWee's and Bantams doesn't mean he will be a good college or even high school player. Blais made a judgement call on Potulny, worked out for the Gophers. If Ryan was so highly talked about as a college recruit at these ages, why did I never hear of him, or Grant for that matter? (Remember I didn't grow up here)

Finally, I agree with ScottM that we shold not recruit a player just because he played at RR or Central or even EGF. He is right that there are some fans up here who love the GF kids and get their panties in a bunch when they are not recruited to play here. Blais gets paid to win, not recruit local boys. There is not a coach in the NCAA that would recruit somebody who is a decent player just because he is from the area. That's just ridiculous.

[Handyman]

Take it for what it is worth, but I remember reading interviews with Potulny and Irmen about their commitments. They both talked about how they independantly made the decision and how they had no idea where each was going until the decision was made. Now that could mean nothing, but at least on the surface it would seem that they both just wanted to come here for their own reasons. (not because their buddy was coming)

And as soon as Grant signed here I heard about Ryan, and some of the things I heard could rival they hype Parise got.

[PCM]

It has been my understanding (and please, correct me if I am wrong because I might be) that Woog didn't want Goerhing, or didn't offer him enough, which is why he went here.

According to what I once heard Woog say in an interview, he wanted Goehring, but didn't have a spot on the roster for a goalie at the time Karl was available.

If Ryan was so highly talked about as a college recruit at these ages, why did I never hear of him, or Grant for that matter?

Ryan was a more highly regarded recruit than Grant.

Finally,  I agree with ScottM that we shold not recruit a player just because he played at RR or Central or even EGF.

As much as I love to see local players do well for UND, this is Division I hockey and the Sioux need to go after the best players available to fit Blais' system. We should be flattered that locally produced players are sought after by other top college teams. And for that reason, the Sioux aren't going to get them all.

[skateshattrick]

To clear up any misconception about Karl Goehring, he was recruited by Minnesota and offered money. I believe it was a 1/2 ride. Woog had a reputation for being arrogant about the U of M program, and purportedly expected that Goehring, like many local kids, would come to Minnesota for less than a full ride. By the way, I have heard that accusation leveled at UND recently by many in the hockey community, including 3 different former Sioux players.

No one is claiming that UND needs to recruit all of the local players. However, when very, very good players are expected to walk on or take less because they are local players, that does not sit well. That is arrogant, and is very similar to what happened to Woog. Woog did not lose his job because of a lack of quality players, he lost his job because of horrible communication skills with players and because he could not win with great players. He also lost some good players from Minnesota because he expected many to walk on or take less than a full ride.

Minnesota North Star, if you never heard of Ryan Potulny or Danny Irmen, then you obviously either do not follow youth hockey very closely . Ryan was one of the leading scorers for GF Red River as a 9th grader, and Danny Irmen was a top 2 scorer for Fargo North as a 9th grader. Ryan was the most talked about kid from North Dakota for many years. Danny was in the Burggraf camps since he was a kid, and Frank told anyone who would listen how good Danny was and was going to be. By the time they were sophomores in high school, they were 2 of the best players in the State. They played on Select Teams and were well known in both North Dakota and Minnesota. They then both left for juniors at age 16, and had 2 great seasons at Lincoln in what would have been their junior and senior years of high school.

[dagies]

It has been my understanding (and please, correct me if I am wrong because I might be) that Woog didn't want Goerhing, or didn't offer him enough, which is why he went here.

Second of all, just be cause a kid is good in PeeWee's and Bantams doesn't mean he will be a good college or even high school player. Blais made a judgement call on Potulny, worked out for the Gophers. If Ryan was so highly talked about as a college recruit at these ages, why did I never hear of him, or Grant for that matter? (Remember I didn't grow up here)

Finally, I agree with ScottM that we shold not recruit a player just because he played at RR or Central or even EGF. He is right that there are some fans up here who love the GF kids and get their panties in a bunch when they are not recruited to play here. Blais gets paid to win, not recruit local boys. There is not a coach in the NCAA that would recruit somebody who is a decent player just because he is from the area. That's just ridiculous.

I remember hearing on boards like these about Ryan several years ago, and how he was going to be the next great GF player.

[sprig]

Having trouble figuring out what is going on here and on poi, concerning recruits. Here, Sioux fans (some) are not happy the ND kids are choosing MN. On POI, Goph fans (some) are not happy that they are not getting the SSM players.

Would Sioux fans prefer to add the current MN recruits to the existing Sioux recruits, then drop some of the upperclassman to make room, thereby creating another very large freshman class, or trade Sioux recruits for MN recruits. Would MN fans want to do the same. Don't think so, for either team.

None of this year's class for either team has proven anything yet, and arguments about whether the USHL or SSM AAA midget is better are useless. All are expected to be good college players.

May the best team win (and may the best team not be MN) As for SSM, wish the Sioux's "pipeline", had started a couple years earlier (like Eaves earlier).

And I still don't think we have nearly enough 25 year old Canadians to keep Ha**y ranting.

[PCM]

To clear up any misconception about Karl Goehring, he was recruited by Minnesota and offered money.

So you're saying Woog was lying when he said he had no spot on the roster for another goalie at the time Goehring was available?