Guentzel

[tnt]

1) One could argue that anyone could win a national title with teams Hakstol has had the last few years, but obviously that didn't happen. There are teams every year that have rosters that would indicate they could / should win a title, such as UND's the last few years.

2) "Implosions?" So, let's see: two regular season titles, one WCHA playoff title, All-Americans, etc. Yeah, the Holy Cross loss is terrible, and last season wasn't great (though they still made the most of things at the end when most people -- including myself -- thought they would go down without a fight).

And don't give me this BS that Sioux fans like to spit out about how the NCAA title is all that matters. Convenient excuse considering the lack of banners under Hakstol and the many that have been hung by the Gophers and other teams over that same time period.

3) Three of the four classes on the 2002 team were Lucia recruits. Obviously guys like Leopold and Pohl were big contributors and they were of course Woog recruits, but guys like Ballard, Taffe, Koalska, Riddle, Martin, etc. were Lucia recruits that made a huge difference on that team.

And, by the way, 100 percent of the players on the 2003 title team were Lucia recruits, so explain that one. Must have been the influence of Woog's recruits from the previous year that put them over the top, right?

If memory serves me correctly, it was your coach that devalued anything but the NCAA title!

[sagard]

If memory serves me correctly, it was your coach that devalued anything but the NCAA title!

Ahhhhh noo.. That was you guys until '01.

[Dean]

Ahhhhh noo.. That was you guys until '01.

Sagard apparently has read this forum for a long time because he is correct.

[siouxlove]

Ahhhhh noo.. That was you guys until '01.

No,that was Lucia. I seem to remember a quote attributed to him saying at a F5, that the only game worth playing well or with your all was the one for first place, third place didn't matter.

I also remember a quote from Andy Schneider that is someone's sig. "Doesn't matter if it's 1st place or last place, you're playing for the team and it's history." That's not quite it but pretty darn closs.

[dagies]

Not winning it all? It's hard to win it all.....

In the last 12 years here are the teams that have won the national championship:

UND 2x

MN 2x

Denver 2x

BC 2x

Michigan State 1x

Michigan 1x

Maine 1x

Wisconsin 1x

There aren't many programs who get a chance to win, and to get 2 of the last 12 is pretty good.

We can get down to parsing out whether Hakstol should have won one by now but let's look at Jerry York.

York took over at BC in 1994. From 1998 to 2008 York's teams have been in the Frozen Four 8 times. How many times have they won? Hak is not far off the pace. However, he needs to win one who put himself with the next level of coaches.

[Cardinal]

No,that was Lucia. I seem to remember a quote attributed to him saying at a F5, that the only game worth playing well or with your all was the one for first place, third place didn't matter.

First place in a conference tourney is a lot different than winning an NCAA title. I don't agree with Lucia's theory about how third place games aren't worth going for, but I can understand where he's coming from and can respect his thinking on it.

[Sioux-cia]

First place in a conference tourney is a lot different than winning an NCAA title. I don't agree with Lucia's theory about how third place games aren't worth going for, but I can understand where he's coming from and can respect his thinking on it.

I don't understand it. Please explain.

[Gopherguy33]

Not questioning talent levels, just the fact that the issue is a concern for "some" underclassmen. It is difficult enough when the head coaches' son is in the locker room, but when you add a number of his friends it can lead to dissension. Not that difficult to imagine if you think about it. Perception and reality aren't always the same thing.

The fact that he went to Hill-Murray, is now going to Notre Dame, may have something to do with it.

[Cardinal]

I don't understand it. Please explain.

The logic is that you don't want to go balls to the wall for a game that, in most cases, doesn't mean a whole lot, especially with the NCAA tournament on the horizon. Obvioulsy things like PairWise rankings could make the game VERY meaningful, but that's on a case-by-case basis.

Everyone points to the Holy Cross year as a reason why you take the third place game seriously, but there are plenty of examples where a team has sputtered late in the season or lost their last non-NCAA game but still done very well in the NCAAs, so I feel that logic is slightly flawed. And during the Final Five prior to the HC game, the Gophers played a dramatic, OT game on Friday night with SCSU and had to turn around and play a very good UW team the next afternoon. They were SOL from the second they stepped on the ice, IMO, and I think most teams would have faced a similar fate given that predicament.

I don't think the Gophers threw the game or anything, and I certainly don't believe that's what Lucia means when his words tend to "devalue" the game.

There's a reason that the other conferences have got rid of the third place game: it's not worth having. The only reason the WCHA keeps it around is because of the money they can generate off of it that other conference's can't because of the location of the Xcel Energy Center, the great fan bases that travel, etc.

[Sioux-cia]

From Dave Bergr's Blog http://blog.siouxsports.com/2008/03/08/fri...st-cloud-state/

My favorite quote on this matter comes from former Sioux defenseman Andy Schneider, who had this to say after UND defeated Minnesota for third place at the 2005 WCHA Final Five (several Gopher players and coaches were heard explaining that the game didn't really matter):

"There's a certain amount of pride when you put on a Sioux jersey. We know how fortunate we are to play here. Going into that Saturday game for third place, it didn't matter that it was for third place. For North Dakota, we're playing for the 70 years that there's been hockey here."

There in lies a huge difference between the programs.

[Cardinal]

From Dave Bergr's Blog http://blog.siouxsports.com/2008/03/08/fri...st-cloud-state/

There in lies a huge difference between the programs.

I agree that there's a touch of that; to what degree I'm not sure, and in the end, the results on the ice are what matters. I know people on this board don't think so, but the Gophers have had a pretty good run over the last few years. Yes, some bad games / stretches have come along the way, but that happens. The fact is they've had as much success as anyone in college hockey during Lucia's tenure, no matter how you want to define "success." They've captured every type of banner available (DQ Cup too!), had a Hobey Baker winner, first team All-Americans, guys going to the NHL and being factors, etc.

You guys might not like Lucia (though I'm not sure Sioux fans would like anybody who coached the Gophers), but to ignore the success to to try to paint him in a bad light at this point is foolish. The same can be said for Gopher fans who unleash unprovoked attacks on Hakstol. Most of the Hak-bashing done by Gopher fans comes on the heels of Lucia ripping by UND fans, IMO.

[Sioux-cia]

Both sides rag on each other as is done between fan bases of all athletics. It's what's done. It's part of the rivalry.

But, to get to the reason for the thread,

Was Guentzel a scap goat? Was the wrong coach eased out? What are the players saying about Guentzel leaving? How is this going to affect the Goofs's program?

[Cardinal]

But, to get to the reason for the thread,

Was Guentzel a scap goat? Was the wrong coach eased out? What are the players saying about Guentzel leaving? How is this going to affect the Goofs's program?

Those are all big unknowns at this point, and I think that a majority of those questions can only be answered on the ice over the coming years. If the team flops the next few years, then they'll likely be changes. If last year's down season was a blip on the radar and they come back strong in the coming years, then I think Lucia and/or Hill will be vindicated. Time will tell...

[dagies]

Personally, I don't even see this as an issue of whether Lucia made Guentzel a scapegoat. A head coach has a right to "adjust" his staff has he sees fit. In fact, I'll even guess that if Lucia made a change he probably had a good reason to do so.

That said, the public explanation of what went down likely differs from the real story. And in the case of a firing described as a resignation that can also be understandable.

However, since the majority of a team's fans are going to drink the Kool-Aid on those explanations, if a sports writer wants to stir the pot all he has to do is bring out the real story, add a dash of red pepper to spice it up, and there you go. Now Reusse has joined those few MN fans who don't care so much for Lucia with fans of other schools who are mandated to hate everything about their rival (or suffer death) and pitted them against the Kool-Aid drinkers.

We should ALL thank Reusse for the off-season fun (easy for me to say).

[Slap Shot]

So if it's not Wheeler who are the unhappy upperclassmen?

1) You assume there's enough validity to the accusation that it requires scrutiny. The only reason citing unhappy players is relevant is if there is a significant portion players that feel this way and/or the coach has engaged in questionable behavior. Sometimes it's the kid and not the coach.

Cardinal please tell what part of the statement isn't true? The first 2002 title contained a lot of Woogs recruits that is a true statement.

1) Define "a lot".

2) After you've done that, apply that same criteria to the 2003 Gophers team that won the title then compare and contrast.

3) When you're done there, if you still wish to claim Lucia only won 2 titles because he was handed talented rosters, explain Hak's 4 straight FF appearances without a NC despite heavily talented rosters.

4) Finally, explain what supposed advantages Lucia walked into at CC, Goon, where he won 3 straight McNaughton's?

Is Lucia infallible? Heck no, but I think it's disingenuous to claim he's not a good coach despite the body of work and a bit premature to call for his head. As a Gophers fan no coach is above the program and if the team continues to fall short of the NCAA FF I'll be one of the first in line to call for a change.

[skateshattrick]

1) You assume there's enough validity to the accusation that it requires scrutiny. The only reason citing unhappy players is relevant is if there is a significant portion players that feel this way and/or the coach has engaged in questionable behavior. Sometimes it's the kid and not the coach.

1) Define "a lot".

2) After you've done that, apply that same criteria to the 2003 Gophers team that won the title then compare and contrast.

3) When you're done there, if you still wish to claim Lucia only won 2 titles because he was handed talented rosters, explain Hak's 4 straight FF appearances without a NC despite heavily talented rosters.

4) Finally, explain what supposed advantages Lucia walked into at CC, Goon, where he won 3 straight McNaughton's?

Is Lucia infallible? Heck no, but I think it's disingenuous to claim he's not a good coach despite the body of work and a bit premature to call for his head. As a Gophers fan no coach is above the program and if the team continues to fall short of the NCAA FF I'll be one of the first in line to call for a change.

Slapshot and Cardinal,

Can we PLEASE stop debating whether Lucia is a good coach? Several UND fans on this board, including me, have agreed completely that he's a great coach. There are several who disagree. So what? Do you really need to convince every Sioux fan? In other words, can we talk about something other than Lucia and the Gophers? I know that you want this to be a Gophers/Lucia lovefest, but that is really not a reasonable expectation considering where you are posting.

[Slap Shot]

In other words, can we talk about something other than Lucia and the Gophers? I know that you want this to be a Gophers/Lucia lovefest, but that is really not a reasonable expectation considering where you are posting.

1) You're saying a Gopher fan started this thread and was also the first to bring up Lucia?

2) You're saying this thread was started purely for the purpose of sincerely discussing Mike Guentzel's future endeavors and not Don Lucia?

3) Either way - it's all good in the love and war that is WCHA hockey.

[Greenbayguy]

I agree that there's a touch of that; to what degree I'm not sure, and in the end, the results on the ice are what matters. I know people on this board don't think so, but the Gophers have had a pretty good run over the last few years. Yes, some bad games / stretches have come along the way, but that happens. The fact is they've had as much success as anyone in college hockey during Lucia's tenure, no matter how you want to define "success." They've captured every type of banner available (DQ Cup too!), had a Hobey Baker winner, first team All-Americans, guys going to the NHL and being factors, etc.

You guys might not like Lucia (though I'm not sure Sioux fans would like anybody who coached the Gophers), but to ignore the success to to try to paint him in a bad light at this point is foolish. The same can be said for Gopher fans who unleash unprovoked attacks on Hakstol. Most of the Hak-bashing done by Gopher fans comes on the heels of Lucia ripping by UND fans, IMO.

I always love a good chicken/egg argument. I think most TDon bashing comes on the heels of Hakstol ripping by Gopher fans, IMO.

[Sioux-cia]

I always love a good chicken/egg argument. I think most TDon bashing comes on the heels of Hakstol ripping by Gopher fans, IMO.

I think most tDon bashing came after his first haircut.

[Goon]

Both sides rag on each other as is done between fan bases of all athletics. It's what's done. It's part of the rivalry.

But, to get to the reason for the thread,

Was Guentzel a scap goat? Was the wrong coach eased out? What are the players saying about Guentzel leaving? How is this going to affect the Goofs's program?

On beyond the pond former Goofs star Johnny Pohl said that losing Mike Guentzel was a huge loss to the program he also sounded pretty shook up about it.

[buckysieve]

On beyond the pond former Goofs star Johnny Pohl said that losing Mike Guentzel was a huge loss to the program he also sounded pretty shook up about it.

It's not surprising that he said that because Guentzel was very close to the players but saying it's a huge loss to the program is being short sighted because it only focuses on what were losing as opposed to what were gaining. Who's to say the new assistant won't be even better?

[Slap Shot]

I think most tDon bashing came after his first haircut.

[siouxguyinstpaul]

It's not surprising that he said that because Guentzel was very close to the players but saying it's a huge loss to the program is being short sighted because it only focuses on what were losing as opposed to what were gaining. Who's to say the new assistant won't be even better?

your right - its probably not a huge loss - perhaps not a loss at all - hell, maybe even a blessing by your train of thought.

[Gopherguy33]

your right - its probably not a huge loss - perhaps not a loss at all - hell, maybe even a blessing by your train of thought.

SGISP,

You are the Jarko Rutuu of message boards. You add little substance to any discussion.

You are your own, University of Minny Mystery.

One could also say that a fan of rival A, will attach their petty hopes to any sign of trouble at rival B. Why does this matter so much? I could care less if Eades or Osieki leave heir current posts..well, Eades anyway...........

[redwing77]

SGISP,

You are the Jarko Rutuu of message boards. You add little substance to any discussion.

You are your own, University of Minny Mystery.

One could also say that a fan of rival A, will attach their petty hopes to any sign of trouble at rival B. Why does this matter so much? I could care less if Eades or Osieki leave heir current posts..well, Eades anyway...........

Truthfully, I disagree in this context.

I really think we don't know how this will affect the team on or off the ice. We're not privy to off ice issues really and I'm not sure how much what we are privy to is affected by an assistant head coach (as opposed to the associate head coach or head coach) stepping down.

It may be obvious on ice, but we'll have to wait until next season to know for sure.

I know for a fact that UND's game changed drastically after losing Brad Berry. It took Dane Jackson a while to become effective.