Standing Rock/Spirit Lake

[jukenjive27]

Read the comment by A Standing Rock Voiceposted 4/03/08 @ 11:05 AM CST it gives a very interesting perspective. Seems as if there are some people upset with RHT...

Controversy surrounds November sorority party

I am glad a lot of them feel it is dishonorable to take something back that they gave us. Very classy.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Goetz is the chancellor of the North Dakota University System. In other words, he is in charge of all of the public colleges and universities in the state of North Dakota. He reports to the State Board of Higher Education.

Thanks.

I've never completely understood academic nomenclature. We have someone who is in charge of the three campuses of the University of Illinois, and he's called a president: reporting to him are three chancellors of each individual campus. So it seems as if the same duties are being done by a "president" at some places but a "chancellor" at others.

In any case, it seems as if he (Goetz) is more of a politician than an educator at this point in his career. That position seems to deal more with budgets, etc. than setting up academic programs.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Read the comment by A Standing Rock Voiceposted 4/03/08 @ 11:05 AM CST it gives a very interesting perspective. Seems as if there are some people upset with RHT...

I agree, an interesting letter: I sincerely hope that this poster is who he says he is, and I hope that (at least) on his reservation and at his tribe's political meetings he stands up and gives this same speech.

[Chewey]

Think of the irony if the Fighting Sioux (hostile and abusive nickname and people should go to Hell for even uttering it) play the Fighting Irish (not hostile because they are not people and, even if they were people, they would be white people and we don't care about them) in the national championship game for hockey.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Think of the irony if the Fighting Sioux (hostile and abusive nickname and people should go to Hell for even uttering it) play the Fighting Irish (not hostile because they are not people and, even if they were people, they would be white people and we don't care about them) in the national championship game for hockey.

Yes, and as many others have pointed out-if the Illini played FSU at Tallahasee, a face-painted student wearing buckskins and riding a horse could fling a flaming spear into the ground at midfield (BTW, directly into their logo) and nobody in Indianapolis objects.

Now if we played them at Champaign, the very possibility that anyone could REMEMBER our Chief at halftime (and at halftime only) would cause the world to explode.

(BTW, has anyone here seen the new controversy about Absolut Vodka's ads? Right now, it seems to be centered around Mexican complaints. I wonder if all parties have been heard from yet? )

[Goon]

From the comments of his DS editorial:

This is what Mr Fool Bear had to say to a student that said you only feel this way because your an imcoming student.

It is a nice rebutal.

Steve Fool Bears: My opinion will not change; I've spent a lot of time at the UND campus, a lot time all over the world and have made a lot of friends from every race. You can choose to let the chauvinists control your life, just like you can choose not to. The logo has nothing to do with these people's feelings towards you; those feelings will not change after the logo is gone. I have experienced racism at a level much higher than most could imagine.

Mr Fool Bear also said: choose to live by the moral code our ancestors set for us, there's no honor in what is happening at UND. Unless SR and every other Native school in ND retire their logos and nicknames, "which will never happen on SR" We're proud to be the Standing Rock Warriors, we have no business telling UND to retire theirs. There's no honor and taking back something we gave away. If you have a problem with the way people treat you, then direct your attention or inattention toward those people.

[dagies]

Steve Fool Bear for President.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

This is the part most of the anti-nickname/logo screamers just don't (or won't) understand. The nickname didn't cause your "problems", and removing it won't change a thing.

Do you really think that ANYTHING about that frat party a few months ago would have been different if your nickname was 'Bananna Slugs'?

[redwing77]

Steve Fool Bear for President.

Now... I wonder if Graham Kracker's statements are true... if so, Steve Fool Bear may not have a home in the reservation to return to for saying such things.

He's right though. The nickname goes away but the racism* will continue.

* let me make a caveat regarding this term with direct regard to recent events at regional campuses and greek life. I do not believe that any of these people are racists. They are just criminally stupid. There is a big difference. Racists may not be vocal, but those who are speak out that the world's problems stem from an ethnicity or can be traced back to a trait (perceived or otherwise) displayed by people of a race or creed. These NDSU students and those unfortunate events that happened 20+ years ago on UND's campus weren't racists really. They were just idiots. Idiots exist. But whatever helps the activists make their headline.

[fourwindsboy]

This only serves to validate my contention that it's really a waste of time to deal with these tribes, and the settlement was nothing more than a complete surrender. Retire the name on our own terms, forget the tribes, and move on. Let's quit deluding ourselves that these people will be reasonable at any time. F**k 'em

Scottm and goon, you people are exactly why the nickname needs to be changed. I am a member of the Spirit Lake tribe and also an alumni of UND. When I was at UND there were numerous times I was called derogatory names and discriminated against. Back then I just shrugged those things off and even kicked some a$$ a couple of times. Now when I hear that the conditions are still the same, I feel the only way we can fight back is to force UND to change the name and know that it absolutely kills guys like you 2. You know, we NA's have been getting the shaft from you caucasions since 1492 and if this is one little battle we can win then count me in!

[ScottM]

Scottm and goon, you people are exactly why the nickname needs to be changed. I am a member of the Spirit Lake tribe and also an alumni of UND. When I was at UND there were numerous times I was called derogatory names and discriminated against. Back then I just shrugged those things off and even kicked some a$$ a couple of times. Now when I hear that the conditions are still the same, I feel the only way we can fight back is to force UND to change the name and know that it absolutely kills guys like you 2. You know, we NA's have been getting the shaft from you caucasions since 1492 and if this is one little battle we can win then count me in!

God, you went all the way back to November 2007 to find that quote?

As for getting "the shaft" since 1492, get over it. It's too easy to keep being a "victim" and rely on your own self-pity.

[Chewey]

Scottm and goon, you people are exactly why the nickname needs to be changed. I am a member of the Spirit Lake tribe and also an alumni of UND. When I was at UND there were numerous times I was called derogatory names and discriminated against. Back then I just shrugged those things off and even kicked some a$$ a couple of times. Now when I hear that the conditions are still the same, I feel the only way we can fight back is to force UND to change the name and know that it absolutely kills guys like you 2. You know, we NA's have been getting the shaft from you caucasions since 1492 and if this is one little battle we can win then count me in!

Oh, so your aim is retribution and pay back rather than remedying the "hostile and abusive" nature of the nickname? Your aim is not to work to allay the supposed deleterious "self-esteem" effects of the big bad nickname? I knew those claims were always just shams for the racist motivations that you so eloquently stated. Besides, what were your racist experiences specifically at UND? Do they even exist? Did you report them? Given that you kicked some @$$ at least one time, I presume there are police reports/campus security reports? No? Is this just the same old trip-trap that name changers trot out about insults and racist experiences that never happened except for in their dreams?

[Goon]

Scottm and goon, you people are exactly why the nickname needs to be changed. I am a member of the Spirit Lake tribe and also an alumni of UND. When I was at UND there were numerous times I was called derogatory names and discriminated against. Back then I just shrugged those things off and even kicked some a$$ a couple of times. Now when I hear that the conditions are still the same, I feel the only way we can fight back is to force UND to change the name and know that it absolutely kills guys like you 2. You know, we NA's have been getting the shaft from you caucasions since 1492 and if this is one little battle we can win then count me in!

Fourwinds boy I believe your fight is with someone else. I will still go to the game no matter what the name is.

First off how I am not one of those you people that you are referring. How dare you even imply that, you can't piegon hole me buddy, your WRONG, WRONG... You have no idea who I am so you might want to back the hell off. Second: I don't wear a F'N sheet and I am not some bigot like you have implied with your post.

I have never nor would I ever say anything derrogatory and or offensive to an Native American nor have I gotten into a fight with any of them; ever. I haven't even been on campus except for hockey since 1999. I would be willing to bet that ScottM is not guy as well. Thirdly, I hear all of these things that are said or done to Native American's but I have yet to see anyone give any evidence of actual events. Let's lay them out on the table and address them, we aren't talking about anecdotal evidence. Lay out some hard facts. So back the hell off.

[Chewey]

Do you have a job since you seem to spend a lot of time posting here? That was very racist of you to question if a Native American has a job. Racist stereotype. Nope no racism here is there?

Nice. That's very racist of you to say so. That racist vitriol is all too tired. ScottM's response could apply to anyone, especially the racist, creatively-impaired and intellectually numbed sociology professors at UND. I can think of at least one so-called educator in the law school who could start earning his keep, too.

[Siouxman]

I am just so terribly disappointed that the tribes don't take advantage of the current situation to a) use it as an economic advantage to further education on the reservation and at UND for the NA students, and b) to use it as an educational opportunity for non-NA's.

On the economic front, a working relationship could be developed with UND that provides funds from the use of the Fighting Sioux name through licensing/merchandise sales. The funds could be used to improve educational opportunities on the reservation and/or provide scholarship opportunities to NA students in college. Low self-esteem, poor economic situations, etc. can all be improved with education, support programs, etc. And I am not talking handouts here.

On the non-NA education front, how appropriate it be to have a Sioux heritage museum as part of The Ralph complex. This would provide historical perspective and education on tribal history, customs, traditions, etc. and could be tied into the UND History Dept. and the NA center on campus. Many people tour The Ralph and such a facility would be a natural fit. What a way to provide context and honor to the tribes and the use of the Fighting Sioux name. It would sure help to offset the Hollywood stereotype of Native Americans.

The tribe could also use the working relationship to help guide usage of the name and logo and eliminate current improper uses (such as Sioux-per Dogs).

Certainly some would see this as buying out the tribes and I believe that is a serious mistake. I don't know that much about the Florida Seminole situation, but having a white guy ride out on a horse to throw a spear doesn't do it for me. I view that as disrespect. I don't know that I would like it even if it was a tribal member. To me that is a buyout situation, but I don't know what the tribe is using the funds for. I am a native North Dakotan who has now lived in MN for more than half my life (I am 56), but I am and always will be North Dakotan and proud of it. I view the NA heritage as a significant part of North Dakota history. To me this is a grand opportunity to improve relations, understanding, and education as well as bring increased respect to the Fighting Sioux tradition.

At UAA in Anchorage they have an excellent program targeted at the native tribes to help provide education and support, and retain the students through graduation. The program is targeted at areas where Alaska can use the most personnel, such as the oil industry, natural resources, etc. Alaska has had a real problem getting people that move to Alaska to stay. They tend to leave after a short period of time because they cannot adjust. Educating the local native tribes benefits all. It is a tremendous program, and UND attended a seminar last October in Anchorage on this program. Watch for some possible developments at UND on this front.

Just my two cents worth.

[dagies]

I am just so terribly disappointed that the tribes don't take advantage of the current situation to a) use it as an economic advantage to further education on the reservation and at UND for the NA students, and b) to use it as an educational opportunity for non-NA's.

On the economic front, a working relationship could be developed with UND that provides funds from the use of the Fighting Sioux name through licensing/merchandise sales. The funds could be used to improve educational opportunities on the reservation and/or provide scholarship opportunities to NA students in college. Low self-esteem, poor economic situations, etc. can all be improved with education, support programs, etc. And I am not talking handouts here.

On the non-NA education front, how appropriate it be to have a Sioux heritage museum as part of The Ralph complex. This would provide historical perspective and education on tribal history, customs, traditions, etc. and could be tied into the UND History Dept. and the NA center on campus. Many people tour The Ralph and such a facility would be a natural fit. What a way to provide context and honor to the tribes and the use of the Fighting Sioux name. It would sure help to offset the Hollywood stereotype of Native Americans.

The tribe could also use the working relationship to help guide usage of the name and logo and eliminate current improper uses (such as Sioux-per Dogs).

Certainly some would see this as buying out the tribes and I believe that is a serious mistake. I don't know that much about the Florida Seminole situation, but having a white guy ride out on a horse to throw a spear doesn't do it for me. I view that as disrespect. I don't know that I would like it even if it was a tribal member. To me that is a buyout situation, but I don't know what the tribe is using the funds for. I am a native North Dakotan who has now lived in MN for more than half my life (I am 56), but I am and always will be North Dakotan and proud of it. I view the NA heritage as a significant part of North Dakota history. To me this is a grand opportunity to improve relations, understanding, and education as well as bring increased respect to the Fighting Sioux tradition.

At UAA in Anchorage they have an excellent program targeted at the native tribes to help provide education and support, and retain the students through graduation. The program is targeted at areas where Alaska can use the most personnel, such as the oil industry, natural resources, etc. Alaska has had a real problem getting people that move to Alaska to stay. They tend to leave after a short period of time because they cannot adjust. Educating the local native tribes benefits all. It is a tremendous program, and UND attended a seminar last October in Anchorage on this program. Watch for some possible developments at UND on this front.

Just my two cents worth.

I agree with you, Siouxman. There's a chance to do a lot more good with a little cooperation between the parties, than there is by winning a spite battle, which will only end up with more negative emotions.

[fourwindsboy]

I am just so terribly disappointed that the tribes don't take advantage of the current situation to a) use it as an economic advantage to further education on the reservation and at UND for the NA students, and b) to use it as an educational opportunity for non-NA's.

On the economic front, a working relationship could be developed with UND that provides funds from the use of the Fighting Sioux name through licensing/merchandise sales. The funds could be used to improve educational opportunities on the reservation and/or provide scholarship opportunities to NA students in college. Low self-esteem, poor economic situations, etc. can all be improved with education, support programs, etc. And I am not talking handouts here.

On the non-NA education front, how appropriate it be to have a Sioux heritage museum as part of The Ralph complex. This would provide historical perspective and education on tribal history, customs, traditions, etc. and could be tied into the UND History Dept. and the NA center on campus. Many people tour The Ralph and such a facility would be a natural fit. What a way to provide context and honor to the tribes and the use of the Fighting Sioux name. It would sure help to offset the Hollywood stereotype of Native Americans.

The tribe could also use the working relationship to help guide usage of the name and logo and eliminate current improper uses (such as Sioux-per Dogs).

Certainly some would see this as buying out the tribes and I believe that is a serious mistake. I don't know that much about the Florida Seminole situation, but having a white guy ride out on a horse to throw a spear doesn't do it for me. I view that as disrespect. I don't know that I would like it even if it was a tribal member. To me that is a buyout situation, but I don't know what the tribe is using the funds for. I am a native North Dakotan who has now lived in MN for more than half my life (I am 56), but I am and always will be North Dakotan and proud of it. I view the NA heritage as a significant part of North Dakota history. To me this is a grand opportunity to improve relations, understanding, and education as well as bring increased respect to the Fighting Sioux tradition.

At UAA in Anchorage they have an excellent program targeted at the native tribes to help provide education and support, and retain the students through graduation. The program is targeted at areas where Alaska can use the most personnel, such as the oil industry, natural resources, etc. Alaska has had a real problem getting people that move to Alaska to stay. They tend to leave after a short period of time because they cannot adjust. Educating the local native tribes benefits all. It is a tremendous program, and UND attended a seminar last October in Anchorage on this program. Watch for some possible developments at UND on this front.

Just my two cents worth.

You are exactly right but why can't it come from the UND end? I worked at the tribal college in Fort Totten for many years and UND presence there was scant. Many from the SLT have earned degrees from Mayville via distance learning, NDSU does a summer science camp and sunday science academy at CCCC, Minot State sends a person 4 times a year to CCCC to recruit. UND's efforts are meager compared to these other schools.

[fourwindsboy]

Oh, so your aim is retribution and pay back rather than remedying the "hostile and abusive" nature of the nickname? Your aim is not to work to allay the supposed deleterious "self-esteem" effects of the big bad nickname? I knew those claims were always just shams for the racist motivations that you so eloquently stated. Besides, what were your racist experiences specifically at UND? Do they even exist? Did you report them? Given that you kicked some @$$ at least one time, I presume there are police reports/campus security reports? No? Is this just the same old trip-trap that name changers trot out about insults and racist experiences that never happened except for in their dreams?

You know why you don't hear about most of these racist experiences. Because we are used to being discriminated against at the towns close to our reservations and we sort of become use to it. Devils Lake is a very racist community and myself and pretty much everyone I know has had experiences there thoughout our lives. As for putting them on the table what the hell is that going to do? Are the attackers going to repent? Come on, wake up and smell the coffee. i find it amusing that when I come on here and other forums and express my veiwpoint on how I think the nickname should be changed based on my life experiences, I end up being accused of not tolerating other races.

[Chewey]

I am just so terribly disappointed that the tribes don't take advantage of the current situation to a) use it as an economic advantage to further education on the reservation and at UND for the NA students, and b) to use it as an educational opportunity for non-NA's.

On the economic front, a working relationship could be developed with UND that provides funds from the use of the Fighting Sioux name through licensing/merchandise sales. The funds could be used to improve educational opportunities on the reservation and/or provide scholarship opportunities to NA students in college. Low self-esteem, poor economic situations, etc. can all be improved with education, support programs, etc. And I am not talking handouts here.

On the non-NA education front, how appropriate it be to have a Sioux heritage museum as part of The Ralph complex. This would provide historical perspective and education on tribal history, customs, traditions, etc. and could be tied into the UND History Dept. and the NA center on campus. Many people tour The Ralph and such a facility would be a natural fit. What a way to provide context and honor to the tribes and the use of the Fighting Sioux name. It would sure help to offset the Hollywood stereotype of Native Americans.

The tribe could also use the working relationship to help guide usage of the name and logo and eliminate current improper uses (such as Sioux-per Dogs).

Certainly some would see this as buying out the tribes and I believe that is a serious mistake. I don't know that much about the Florida Seminole situation, but having a white guy ride out on a horse to throw a spear doesn't do it for me. I view that as disrespect. I don't know that I would like it even if it was a tribal member. To me that is a buyout situation, but I don't know what the tribe is using the funds for. I am a native North Dakotan who has now lived in MN for more than half my life (I am 56), but I am and always will be North Dakotan and proud of it. I view the NA heritage as a significant part of North Dakota history. To me this is a grand opportunity to improve relations, understanding, and education as well as bring increased respect to the Fighting Sioux tradition.

At UAA in Anchorage they have an excellent program targeted at the native tribes to help provide education and support, and retain the students through graduation. The program is targeted at areas where Alaska can use the most personnel, such as the oil industry, natural resources, etc. Alaska has had a real problem getting people that move to Alaska to stay. They tend to leave after a short period of time because they cannot adjust. Educating the local native tribes benefits all. It is a tremendous program, and UND attended a seminar last October in Anchorage on this program. Watch for some possible developments at UND on this front.

Just my two cents worth.

This makes too much sense for the politically correct mindset. RHHT and David Gipp and some of the UND professors and administrators only care about effecting the PC mandate of changing the name and chalking up a "victory" over the oppressive masses. Such a sensible solution would do nothing to feed their racism or their effervescent rage.

[Siouxman]

You are exactly right but why can't it come from the UND end? I worked at the tribal college in Fort Totten for many years and UND presence there was scant. Many from the SLT have earned degrees from Mayville via distance learning, NDSU does a summer science camp and sunday science academy at CCCC, Minot State sends a person 4 times a year to CCCC to recruit. UND's efforts are meager compared to these other schools.

Unfortunately, fourwindsboy, you hit the problem on the head but not the way you intended. Your reply comes across as "Do it for me!" That simply does not work and is a mindset failure from the start. You mention distance learning. UND has an extensive on-line curriculum. I know, my son made use of it.

It takes two to tango and "Do you it for me" is failure mode from the start. What would it take for Fort Totten to go to UND and propose discussing some joint efforts? Not much, and it has been done in ND for decades with other schools. I started in pre-engineering at Dickinson State, and it was closely linked with the engineering department at UND. Joint efforts are going on, opportunities are there, but you cannot simply wait for others to do it for you. This isn't entitlement, it is empowerment. It won't be handed to you, but the rhetoric that is being heard from various elements makes doing these joint things just that much more difficult.

Does Fort Totten have an alumni advisory board or alumni advisory councils? If so, that would be a great opportunity to participate and help get something like this going. Don't sit back and wait for someone to do it for you.

All I hear is UND doesn't do this or doesn't do that. But I haven't heard anyone say that we approached UND with this concept and were rejected. So you have indentified the problem, but you haven't recognized the proper solution. I don't want this to come across as critical, but it you want something to happen you have to make the effort rather than just complain that someone didn't do it for you.

[fourwindsboy]

Unfortunately, fourwindsboy, you hit the problem on the head but not the way you intended. Your reply comes across as "Do it for me!" That simply does not work and is a mindset failure from the start. You mention distance learning. UND has an extensive on-line curriculum. I know, my son made use of it.

It takes two to tango and "Do you it for me" is failure mode from the start. What would it take for Fort Totten to go to UND and propose discussing some joint efforts? Not much, and it has been done in ND for decades with other schools. I started in pre-engineering at Dickinson State, and it was closely linked with the engineering department at UND. Joint efforts are going on, opportunities are there, but you cannot simply wait for others to do it for you. This isn't entitlement, it is empowerment. It won't be handed to you, but the rhetoric that is being heard from various elements makes doing these joint things just that much more difficult.

Does Fort Totten have an alumni advisory board or alumni advisory councils? If so, that would be a great opportunity to participate and help get something like this going. Don't sit back and wait for someone to do it for you.

All I hear is UND doesn't do this or doesn't do that. But I haven't heard anyone say that we approached UND with this concept and were rejected. So you have indentified the problem, but you haven't recognized the proper solution. I don't want this to come across as critical, but it you want something to happen you have to make the effort rather than just complain that someone didn't do it for you.

I worked at CCCC for over ten years and alot of attempts were made to partner with UND via distance learning but those efforts were always in vain. The sticking point was, of course money. By the way, CCCC initiated those talks and I guess you could say they were rejected.

[Siouxman]

I worked at CCCC for over ten years and alot of attempts were made to partner with UND via distance learning but those efforts were always in vain. The sticking point was, of course money. By the way, CCCC initiated those talks and I guess you could say they were rejected.

I am glad to hear there were efforts made. Perhaps the timing was wrong, but I would be strictly guessing. I just know that there is a substantial program out there now that anyone can use. And yes, money will always be a problem. But UND attending the seminar last October at UAA tells me that they are serious about these efforts to educate and retain Native Americans. The article that I saw was written up in an engineering magazine. I have not heard anything from UND on it so far. I did try to find a link to it on the internet so that I could post it here but couldn't track it down even on the UAA site. If I can find the article again, I will post it. It appeared to be a very positive program based on the results at UAA.

[GeauxSioux]

Has there been any further movement since this from April 4th??

Goetz has said the nickname issue likely will be much closer to a resolution by the time Robert Kelley takes office as the school

[GeauxSioux]

Has there been any further movement since this from April 4th??

Wasn't there supposed to be a committee formed and discussions occurring? Anyone hearing anything?

In my best Ben Stein "Anyone? Anyone?"

[Chewey]

In my best Ben Stein "Anyone? Anyone?"

I have not heard. Something tells me that several alumni have contacted Goetz and the incoming President and have told them not to be too quick to just dump the name. I think that there may be something going on with the votes being more likely on the reservations. I think the irresponsible and racist cries of "institutional racism" made by the usual anti-nickname suspects surrounding the events concerning the Jewish student were made to try and thwart progress being made. That's all speculation on my part but it seems reasonable to me.