DI Partners

[johnnyroyale]

Curious. NDSU & SDSU formed a partnership in the transition to DI. Both schools said it was "both or neither" in gaining conference membership to the Mid-Con/Gateway. Do the UND fans feel the same way with USD? Will the UXD's partner-up during the transition? Serious question, not to be construed as smack.

[Yote 53]

Judging from what I have read on this board, I would say the sentiment is "no", at this time. Don't take that as a slant against UND, because it is not meant to be that way. I can understand why many in GF would feel that way, though I do not see why. USD and UND have been neck and neck in every major sport the last few years, both competing for conference titles and both qualifying for NCAA playoffs, yet I still feel as if USD is viewed as the weakest of all the Dakota schools, unjustifiably. Our football squads are on par in competitiveness and resources. Your WBB program is stronger, but our MBB program is far ahead of yours at this time. The other sports, they are non-revenue, save hockey which won't come into play in conference talks, and should not matter much.

The USD administration is on record as saying that we would like to partner with UND, I have not heard similar remarks come out of GF. These feelings may change over time as the process of transition moves on. The two schools may come to rely on one another, as the SU's came to rely on each other, and that bond may go stronger over time. It depends on the circumstances. The SU's took the stance they did with the GFC because they were in a better bargaining position together rather than seperately. I did not hear the "all or nothing" talk when it came to MIdCon membership, like I did with the GFC, probably becasue they had developed a pretty formidable GWFC, and with one autobid in football, the money was not as big of a factor like it is in BBall and the "Big Dance" money that comes with an autobid. But, let's not fool ourselves, if the Big Sky had come to either of the SU's early on in the transition process and asked them to join, they would have tripped over themselves ditching the other school.

Personally, I think they should stick together as we are a stronger draw together than apart. We can provide any potential conference with an instant competitive rivalry and have shown in the past that we will set roots and build to strengthen a conference from within instead of conference jumping looking for the best deal. You can do all the transition school vs core school talk that you want when it comes to the MidCon, but I feel they would be crazy to let the opportunity slip by them to have the 4 Dakota schools with their intense rivalries and long affiliations.

Maybe if the BSC opens their eyes, they would see that a UND/USD combo would perfectly complement the Mon/Mon St. core that they currently have as well. That said, with no truly open avenues at this time, I look for this to be a long process, and we're going to need each other inorder to stay strong and kick down some conference doors by beating them on the field and court until someone decides it would be a good idea to let us in.

[bincitysioux]

First off, anyone who believes that it was truly "both or neither" regarding the xDSU's getting into the Gateway is just fooling themselves. If one or the either was offered, that one would have jumped at the chance to join. The Gateway took them both because they wanted 9 members which is ideal for a football only conference, not because they had to take them both to get one of them.

As far as partnering with USD, it hasn't happened yet, but I hope it does. I think that UND is hanging onto the slim chance that the Big Sky may take them at some point, and I think USD would prefer the Mid-Con. But I give alot of credit to the way that NDSU and SDSU have worked together through the trasition, and I hope that the UxD's take a page from that. They have both done a great job marketing their rivalry, and UND and USD should do the same. But when conferences come calling, it'll be every man for himself.

[Yote 53]

But when conferences come calling, it'll be every man for himself.

I agree. Just as it would have been in the SU's case. I can hear the responses now about how they never would have left their wingman, etc. Truth is, they will never know because they were never put into that position. Each institution has to look out for themselves, and I see us being hitched for the foreseeable future out of necessity, not out of any feelings of altruism.

[bincitysioux]

.........I see us being hitched for the foreseeable future out of necessity, not out of any feelings of altruism.

Exactly, if nothing else, UND-USD games during the transition will provide game on the schedules that fans of both schools can look forward to, that is if they market it correctly. After Sioux-Bison games, I have always looked at USD as our biggest rival in football and basketball. There is a lot of history there, and not to mention the fact that the universities are very similar academically as well. Unfortunately, though I'm not sure if most Sioux fans would agree with me. Due to geographical location of UND, it seems that most fans view Minnesota schools as our biggest rivals after NDSU, namely St. Cloud and Duluth. I think that is because of our proximity to the state of Minnesota, and because of hockey ties to those schools, UND fans looked forward to football and basketball games with those schools. It is highly unlikely that after 2007, we will be playing WCHA/NCC schools in other sports so I hope that the rivalry with USD will start to pick-up. I think the administration is starting to pick up on that. UND aggressively advertised the UND-USD football game last season, and televised it as well. They should televise it every year from here on out in my opinion whether it is in Grand Forks or Vermillion seeing as how the FSSN is available in most areas of South Dakota. It wouldn't hurt to start playing for a trophy again either. We played for the Sitting Bull for 40-some odd years, they should bring something in to replace it.

[Bison Dan]

But when conferences come calling, it'll be every man for himself.

I agree. Just as it would have been in the SU's case. I can hear the responses now about how they never would have left their wingman, etc. Truth is, they will never know because they were never put into that position. Each institution has to look out for themselves, and I see us being hitched for the foreseeable future out of necessity, not out of any feelings of altruism.

Both the mid-con and GWC were told going in it's either both (NDSU & SDSU) or none - but hey you believe what you want.

[MplsBison]

I doubt that a conference, esp. if it's the Mid Con or Gateway, is going to want to add only UND or USD and not also the other.

[The Sicatoka]

I doubt that a conference, esp. if it's the Mid Con or Gateway, is going to want to add only UND or USD and not also the other.

Wouldn't "numbers" and "space available" dictate some of that also though?

USD has a distinct geographic advantage in a "one slot available in Mid-Con" scenario.

[Yote 53]

Wouldn't "numbers" and "space available" dictate some of that also though?

USD has a distinct geographic advantage in a "one slot available in Mid-Con" scenario.

Not Necessarily. NDSU has expanded the MidCon footprint. GF isn't that much further of a stretch.

This kind of talk is premature at this time, however. I would like to think that if the MidCon was going to expand again they would view the 4 Dakota schools as a future anchor for their conference that would provide stability in what has been to this time a revolving door conference. The larger conferences above them can only get so large then the MidCon isgoing to have to think about improvement from within. I agree with MplsBison

[Hammersmith]

I agree with MplsBison

Doesn't that just make your skin crawl to say that? I normally feel like a shower after being forced to agree with him. Thankfully, it's a rare occurrence.

On point:

1. I do believe the xDSU's were a package deal for the GFC. I guess I'm a fool then.

2. UND and USD should start working together, and soon. Having someone you can trust and compare notes with(pres to pres, AD to AD) can be invaluable.

3. At the moment, I think the BSC looks better for UND and the Mid-Con looks better for USD. That could all change in an instant if another conference shift begins.

4. While the 4-Dakota schools package in the Mid-Con sounds good, there is a slight possibility that the xDSU's won't be in the Mid-Con by the time the Mid-Con is ready for you guys.(~5-10%)

[star2city]

3. At the moment, I think the BSC looks better for UND and the Mid-Con looks better for USD. That could all change in an instant if another conference shift begins.

Wow. Could there actually be a Bison fan who understands why, from a strategic standpoint, USD would have a strong preference for the MidCon and UND would prefer the BSC?

4. While the 4-Dakota schools package in the Mid-Con sounds good, there is a slight possibility that the xDSU's won't be in the Mid-Con by the time the Mid-Con is ready for you guys.(~5-10%)

If the MidCon is 'never 'ready for UND because of 'core' membership issues, does that mean NDSU/SDSU are in perpetuity in the MidCon?

Seriously, though, NDSU in the MoValley in 2-5 years? You're not serious are you? NDSU would need several NCAA tourney bids, a sparkling new arena (the BSA definitely wouldn't do), SDSU would be a competitor (no "pairs" deal on that at all) before it would ever conceivably happen. Just because of Frost, SDSU could actually be preferred right now.

If you are refering to the MoValley as a IA football league, a IA league can have IA associate members to meet the eight team requirement. Prime example: both Florida Atlantic and Louisiana-Monroe were associate members of the SunBelt in IA football until later obtaining full membership. If the Sunbelt was a prime basketball conference, ULM and possibly FAU would still be associate members.

If the MoValley wanted to go IA in football, there would be takers from the MAC (like No Ill, W Mich, Toledo, and Miami O) in return for full membership, as those school could then drastically improve their basketball standing.

[bincitysioux]

1. I do believe the xDSU's were a package deal for the GFC. I guess I'm a fool then.

C'mon Hammer, can you honestly look me straight in the avatar and tell me that you truly beileve that if Patty V had called Joe Chapman and said, "Joe, we'd love to invite NDSU to join the Gateway. You have a solid program, nice facilities, and a rich tradition. But the presidents of the Gateway have decided that SDSU isn't quite our style". , that Chapman's response would have been, "Thanks, but no thanks Patty. Our relationship with the Jackrabbits is so strong and runs so deep that it far outweighs the benefits of being a member of arguably the strongest FCS conference in the country, which has an autobid, and a TV deal. We'll stay in the GWFC, there's a rumor that some non-scholarship team may join, as well as Sac St., and if we're lucky Utah Valley State will add football in the next few years."

You're a very smart guy Hammersmith, you have a better idea than most how university leadership and conference leadership operate. There is no way that if one of the xDSU's were offered membership and not the other that the one offered would not have joined.

[Riverman]

It wouldn't hurt to start playing for a trophy again either. We played for the Sitting Bull for 40-some odd years, they should bring something in to replace it.

I thought USD had turned to the "dark side" (NC$$) about UND keeping their nickname?

IMHO, All the Dakota's schools will be playing in the Mid Con.

But I a holding out hope for the BSC for UND.

[Yote 53]

I was thinking the same thing. The list would be long to get into an all sport Valley. Wichita St would most likely restart its program as the rumors already suggest if that were to happen. There's another school that would be ahead of the SU's. The Valley is far out of reach for the SU's at this point. Many experts consider them beyond "mid-major" status in MBB, hovering in between the BCS conferences and the rest of the mid-majors. I find it interesting the time frame that SOME SU posters have for their admittance to the Valley. They haven't even tipped off in one MidCon game yet, aren't eligible for the conference tourney, much less having won a conference title, yet are already eyeing a Valley invite in a few short years? I don't get it. Don't get me wrong, it's great to have aspirations, but taking care of the business at hand comes first and good things will present themselves down the road. Maintain perspective. That is about the only "plan" that the UXD's have to follow. Play hard, get competitive and the reward will come.

On another note. USD's plan is to increase football schollies to 57 in 2008 and 63 the following year. Pretty aggressive in my estimation. I think USD is showing a full commitment to D1 as opposed the half-heartedness some have accused we would have. What are UND's schollie plans, if any have been announced?

3. At the moment, I think the BSC looks better for UND and the Mid-Con looks better for USD. That could all change in an instant if another conference shift begins.

That won't work for USD either because it leaves our football program in limbo, unless the GWC were to give us an invite sometime down the road, then that would fit.

[aff]

With all due respect, rushing to average 60 schollies so that you qualify for multiple D-IA body bag money games doesn't really prove to me that USD is fully committed to D-I. Fully funding you're already competitive swim team or other non-revenue sports would be more of a commitment. Most schools can throw all of their money into football and mens bball. Committed schools want to be competitive across the board.

[bincitysioux]

The Valley is far out of reach for the SU's at this point. Many experts consider them beyond "mid-major" status in MBB, hovering in between the BCS conferences and the rest of the mid-majors.

The Missouri Valley is far from a mid-major conference. As far as basketball is concerned, it is possibly the fourth maybe even third best conference in the country.

On another note. USD's plan is to increase football schollies to 57 in 2008 and 63 the following year. Pretty aggressive in my estimation. I think USD is showing a full commitment to D1 as opposed the half-heartedness some have accused we would have. What are UND's schollie plans, if any have been announced?

UND is on the same plan. There was an article last fall in the Herald saying that UND would be at 57 scholarships in 2008.

[bincitysioux]

With all due respect, rushing to average 60 schollies so that you qualify for multiple D-IA body bag money games doesn't really prove to me that USD is fully committed to D-I. Fully funding you're already competitive swim team or other non-revenue sports would be more of a commitment. Most schools can throw all of their money into football and mens bball. Committed schools want to be competitive across the board.

I actually agree with you aff. I think it is pretty obvious that the biggest reason for ramping up schollies in football right away is to cash in on a FBS payday game. But of course the money from those big payday games can be used for anything from football to tennis. It simply provides a new revenue stream.

[Yote 53]

True about ramping up the schollies, but while we are both ramping up schollies in football, we will also have to increase schollies in women's sports to balance those men's sports increases. A rising tide will lift all ships, so to speak. I am only speaking of the plans for football at this moment as well. I do not know what is in store for MBB, etc.

[Coyote Fan]

Ramping up to 57 and 63 as quickly as USD is, hasn't proven that USD is 100% committed to D1 but it sure points that direction. I really wonder whether or not some kind of a revenue stream is being held under wraps. Anything from a sugar daddy donor or two to a committment from the University to fund raising and using their recent fund raising success to help supliment the athletic department. If not the potential for USD to raise money has now proven to be true with the recent success of the last fund raising efforts. I hope a basketball arena is in the near future because it is really needed.

[Hammersmith]

Wow. Could there actually be a Bison fan who understands why, from a strategic standpoint, USD would have a strong preference for the MidCon and UND would prefer the BSC?

If the MidCon is 'never 'ready for UND because of 'core' membership issues, does that mean NDSU/SDSU are in perpetuity in the MidCon?

Seriously, though, NDSU in the MoValley in 2-5 years? You're not serious are you? NDSU would need several NCAA tourney bids, a sparkling new arena (the BSA definitely wouldn't do), SDSU would be a competitor (no "pairs" deal on that at all) before it would ever conceivably happen. Just because of Frost, SDSU could actually be preferred right now.

If you are refering to the MoValley as a IA football league, a IA league can have IA associate members to meet the eight team requirement. Prime example: both Florida Atlantic and Louisiana-Monroe were associate members of the SunBelt in IA football until later obtaining full membership. If the Sunbelt was a prime basketball conference, ULM and possibly FAU would still be associate members.

If the MoValley wanted to go IA in football, there would be takers from the MAC (like No Ill, W Mich, Toledo, and Miami O) in return for full membership, as those school could then drastically improve their basketball standing.

1. I've said for quite a while(though probably in real life and not on the messageboards) that UND/USD is the worst combination of any two of the Dakota schools. NDSU/UND and SDSU/USD have strong historic rivalries and are geographically close to one another. NDSU/SDSU doesn't have the same degree of history, but it does have the geography. UND/USD doesn't even have that. The two schools are almost as far apart as they can be on a North/South line and still be in their respective states. Still, you play the hand you're dealt. Until and unless two different conferences come a calln', the UxDs need to stick together. NDSU and SDSU thought much the same thing a few years back(NDSU to BSC/SDSU to somewhere else). It turned out that a home together was a far better solution than first thought. History might repeat itself.

2. NDSU to MVC in 2-5 years? No chance. In 7-15 years? A small chance. I agree with most of what you said just after that, except I flip it around. I would say that if all those things happen(tourney appearances, new arena, etc.) then a MVC invite could happen. And yes, I do think it would be part of a MVC move to FBS. It's a small chance, 5-10% at best, but the possibility is there. I don't agree with what you said about SDSU, though. I think that the two schools as a pair would be more attractive as travel partners than just one of the schools alone. Of course, it would be contingent on SDSU's MBB program returning to its former glory. You suggest that the MVC would be willing to accept sub-par BB schools that are already FBS in the hopes that they would improve in BB. I believe that current BB success would be more important to them and that they would insist on schools with already high RPIs. If the xDSUs can achieve that, I think they would have almost as good a chance as any MAC school.

3. Regarding bincity's comments to me in the following post: You know, I actually think he would've said no. I don't say that with certainty, but I think the odds would've been better than 50/50 that Chapman would've turned her offer down. In the scenario you describe, the GFC would've increased to 8 members with NDSU. The GWFC would've been at 7 if NDSU stayed put; possibly as many as 9 if the hushed rumblings over on AGS are correct. I understand your skepticism, and I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

[Yote 53]

Ramping up to 57 and 63 as quickly as USD is, hasn't proven that USD is 100% committed to D1 but it sure points that direction. I really wonder whether or not some kind of a revenue stream is being held under wraps. Anything from a sugar daddy donor or two to a committment from the University to fund raising and using their recent fund raising success to help supliment the athletic department. If not the potential for USD to raise money has now proven to be true with the recent success of the last fund raising efforts. I hope a basketball arena is in the near future because it is really needed.

The cost estimates for the new Coyote Student Center have projected upwards another $2mill, an annonymous donor instantly steps up and chips in the $2mill to cover it, after they had already put $3mill inot it. There are some alumni of USD that have some jack. No one on the level of Ralph, but there is some serious cash.

[MplsBison]

Neuharth must be around there.

Engelstad wasn't a billionaire or anything.

[The Sicatoka]

Engelstad wasn't a billionaire or anything.

Are you sure?

Estimates ranged from net worth of $600 million to $1.2 billion at time of his death.

Only Betty (and Owen Nitz and Jeff Cooper) really know.

Then again, I'm sure Mr. Engelstad was the only UND alumnus to do well (fiscally) in life.

[Hawkster]

Anyone who thinks the SU's are going to leave the mid con in 2-5 years is forgetting one thing: they agreed to an early termination fee of something like $500,000 if they leave in less then 8 years. I realize a half a million bucks isn't what it used to be, but considering how they flinched over paying an up front initiation fee, they aren't going anywhere. Heck, they'll be waiting for us with open arms when we come calling to join.

[MplsBison]

Are you sure?

http://www.und.edu/org/bridges/gifthorse.html

Forbes magazine puts his net worth at more than $400 million