Swept again!

[stickboy1956]

I can't admit it because...now pay attention...

I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S TRUE!

Do you not understand the idea that most recruits play for more than half a season? Do you not understand that every player isn't an instant success his freshman season? Do you not understand that there's no way you can say such a thing about a highly regarded recruit like Michael Forney who hasn't been at 100 percent for most of the season?

When this season is done, then you can more accurately judge the impact of this freshman class. And when their careers are done at UND, you can say with great certainty how weak or how strong this particular class was. But until then, there's no way you can claim that your opinion is objective.

Put it this way - would you trade the play of any freshman this year for the player's we lost last year?

Of course you wouldn't. Every year, an elite college hockey team will be losing players and better be ready to replace them with more elite players - if that doesn't happen the team will not be as good.

I don't see why this is so complicated - and why we can't admit the 06 class is one of the weakest UND has brought in recent years.

The next 2 years look better - and they have to be.

[Slap Shot]

I don't see why this is so complicated - and why we can't admit the 06 class is one of the weakest UND has brought in recent years.

I don't want to get into any argument about UND's '06 class, but it can't be as bad as the past 2 Vikings drafts.

[SIOUXELEVENS]

Whats so complicated the year is not over, they haven't even played half of their league games yet.

[PCM]

Put it this way - would you trade the play of any freshman this year for the player's we lost last year?

Put it this way: That is not an option. UND has to play and win with what it has. Most programs would give anything to have two No. 1 NHL drafts at forward and two No. 1 NHL drafts on defense. But apparently I'm supposed to believe that the only way the Sioux could expect to be successful this season was if they brought in freshmen who were clones of Smaby, Zajac, Stafford, Spirko and Parise.

Was that a lot of talent to lose? Yes it was. Is it reasonable to expect that such players can be replaced during the course of one season with "impact" freshmen? No it's not.

It's perposterous to think that way because it so seldom happens. Don't tell me that because the Gophers' freshmen have been successful this season that it proves anything. Right now, they are the exception to the rule. And if they fizzle out in the playoffs like Minnesota's highly regarded recruiting class of last season (it was No. 1 in the nation, right?), what they accomplished in the first half of the season won't mean much, will it?

Every year, an elite college hockey team will be losing players and better be ready to replace them with more elite players - if that doesn't happen the team will not be as good.

I realize that this is the conventional wisdom around here, but there are many real-life examples to prove it wrong.

I don't see why this is so complicated - and why we can't admit the 06 class is one of the weakest UND has brought in recent years.

So the season has ended. Thanks for clearing that up.

The problem here is that everything is relative. For example, one of our favorite Gopher posters claimed that UND's class of 2001 was a bust. But who defines that? How do you define it?

That was the class that helped win a WCHA championship in 03-04 and might well have won a national title that season if not for Adam Berkhoel's stonewall performance at the NCAA West Regional. By almost any standard, it was one of the best teams UND ever put on the ice.

The next season, those seniors were the heart and soul of a team that scratched and clawed its way into the playoffs and played in the national championship game, despite some very trying circumstances. Is it fair to label that class a bust or a group of underachievers because they never won a national title? I don't think so.

Now, hypothetically speaking, what if Michael Forney gets 100 percent healthy over the Christmas break and begins contributing offensively as expected? What if Chris VandeVelde continues to improve and starts chipping in goals here and there? What if Chay Genoway continues to improve and becomes this season's Ryan Duncan? What if Darcy Zajac ends up scoring around the same number of goals this season that his brother did last season? What if the Sioux make it to the Frozen Four for the third straight year because Anthony Grieco does an imitation of Aaron Schweitzer in 1997? What if Forney scores the game-winning goal in overtime in the national championship game, giving UND its eighth NCAA title?

If that happens, will you and buckseive be back here telling us that this year's freshman class was one of the worst in recent years?

I'm not claiming that my hypothetical scenario will happen. I simply don't know. Now, pay attention, because here's my main point:

YOU DON'T EITHER!

There's a lot of hockey left to be played. Young players with potential still have time to play up to their potential. Joe Finley can still become a physical force. Brian Lee can begin playing the way we all know he's capable of playing. Getting T.J. Oshie and Jonathan Towes back to 100 percent might be all it takes to get the team back on track.

There's also time for hot goalies to cool off and hot teams to burn out. So don't tell me with more than half a season to play that you know anything for certain because you don't.

[Southernmn]

The norm for most income freshmen is that they spend the first part of season watching players skate past them when they try to defend them, and get pasted when they have puck, as they try to aclimate themselves to players that are bigger and faster than they have ever played with before. Having the type of a season that Okposo is having (so far) is the exception to the rule.

What you DO look for in freshmen, is progress every game, as they work to adjust their play to the WCHA game. Some take longer than others.............some don't get it till their second season, some never do get it. But to write off the entire Sioux frshmen class at this point in the season seems a little rediculous.

Besides, you know what ND's record was last year 12 games into the WCHA season ? 6 wins, 6 losses. Sound familiar ??

Not saying that they ARE going to turn everything around the second half this year too..............but it seems a little premature to write them off as well.

[Goon]

Anthony Grieco does an imitation of Aaron Schweitzer in 1997? What if Forney scores the game-winning goal in overtime in the national championship game, giving UND its eighth NCAA title?

First thing we have to do is convince Hak to have Phil step asside so Grieco can get a shot. Second its possible, Grieco is about the same age as Schweitzer when he made his run.

There's also time for hot goalies to cool off and hot teams to burn out. So don't tell me with more than half a season to play that you know anything for certain because you don't.

I am glad I am not the only one thinking this. There are some amazing runs out there and as we all know in college hockey the same team doesn't stay hot the whole year. Ala the Goofers loss to HC in the Regonal last season.

Spirko eats up Briggs.

[Goon]

The norm for most income freshmen is that they spend the first part of season watching players skate past them when they try to defend them, and get pasted when they have puck, as they try to aclimate themselves to players that are bigger and faster than they have ever played with before. Having the type of a season that Okposo is having (so far) is the exception to the rule.

And next season he will be in the NHL.

[stickboy1956]

Put it this way: That is not an option. UND has to play and win with what it has. Most programs would give anything to have two No. 1 NHL drafts at forward and two No. 1 NHL drafts on defense. But apparently I'm supposed to believe that the only way the Sioux could expect to be successful this season was if they brought in freshmen who were clones of Smaby, Zajac, Stafford, Spirko and Parise.

Was that a lot of talent to lose? Yes it was. Is it reasonable to expect that such players can be replaced during the course of one season with "impact" freshmen? No it's not.

It's perposterous to think that way because it so seldom happens. Don't tell me that because the Gophers' freshmen have been successful this season that it proves anything. Right now, they are the exception to the rule. And if they fizzle out in the playoffs like Minnesota's highly regarded recruiting class of last season (it was No. 1 in the nation, right?), what they accomplished in the first half of the season won't mean much, will it?

I realize that this is the conventional wisdom around here, but there are many real-life examples to prove it wrong.

So the season has ended. Thanks for clearing that up.

The problem here is that everything is relative. For example, one of our favorite Gopher posters claimed that UND's class of 2001 was a bust. But who defines that? How do you define it?

That was the class that helped win a WCHA championship in 03-04 and might well have won a national title that season if not for Adam Berkhoel's stonewall performance at the NCAA West Regional. By almost any standard, it was one of the best teams UND ever put on the ice.

The next season, those seniors were the heart and soul of a team that scratched and clawed its way into the playoffs and played in the national championship game, despite some very trying circumstances. Is it fair to label that class a bust or a group of underachievers because they never won a national title? I don't think so.

Now, hypothetically speaking, what if Michael Forney gets 100 percent healthy over the Christmas break and begins contributing offensively as expected? What if Chris VandeVelde continues to improve and starts chipping in goals here and there? What if Chay Genoway continues to improve and becomes this season's Ryan Duncan? What if Darcy Zajac ends up scoring around the same number of goals this season that his brother did last season? What if the Sioux make it to the Frozen Four for the third straight year because Anthony Grieco does an imitation of Aaron Schweitzer in 1997? What if Forney scores the game-winning goal in overtime in the national championship game, giving UND its eighth NCAA title?

If that happens, will you and buckseive be back here telling us that this year's freshman class was one of the worst in recent years?

I'm not claiming that my hypothetical scenario will happen. I simply don't know. Now, pay attention, because here's my main point:

YOU DON'T EITHER!

There's a lot of hockey left to be played. Young players with potential still have time to play up to their potential. Joe Finley can still become a physical force. Brian Lee can begin playing the way we all know he's capable of playing. Getting T.J. Oshie and Jonathan Towes back to 100 percent might be all it takes to get the team back on track.

There's also time for hot goalies to cool off and hot teams to burn out. So don't tell me with more than half a season to play that you know anything for certain because you don't.

I'm sorry - you are right - I don't know the 06 class is weak.

I also don't know where the 50+ goals are going to come from that we lost from last year's team.

I also don't know where the big, shutdown defenseman you play against the other teams #1 line is.

I also don't know where the tough as nails senior leader is.

You are right - I just don't know.

[luapsided]

I'm sorry - you are right - I don't know the 06 class is weak.

I also don't know where the 50+ goals are going to come from that we lost from last year's team.

I also don't know where the big, shutdown defenseman you play against the other teams #1 line is.

I also don't know where the tough as nails senior leader is.

You are right - I just don't know.

pass the pipe throughout the forum

[PCM]

You are right - I just don't know.

Finally. You get it.

[Walsh Hall]

Man, nobody is saying that we should dismantle the program. I have to agree that I have not seen too many flashes to indicate that the freshman class will contain first and second team all WCHA calibur players. I hope for the best and will support the team as always, but I don't see the problem with questioning whether this class has the talent level recent classes had. Many may turn out to be solid 4 year players, but I haven't seen anyone that looks to be an elite player. Which Freshman do you see as being a top line guy? Forney would be my best hope and that's based solely on speculation, not on what I've seen. The other guys look to be solid 3-4 line guys. Genoway has impressed me the most but I'm not sure how to place him and how he will develop. It's early so it's not time to throw in the towel, but I am concerned with the squad for this year and next.

[THETRIOUXPER]

I'm sorry - you are right - I don't know the 06 class is weak.

I also don't know where the 50+ goals are going to come from that we lost from last year's team.

I also don't know where the big, shutdown defenseman you play against the other teams #1 line is.

I also don't know where the tough as nails senior leader is.

You are right - I just don't know.

1. Weak 06 class? Maybe part of it is injury related, part lack of playing time or playing with the right combination of people.

2 .50+ more goals? Maybe Oshie, Toews, Duncan, Watkins? Sooner or later these guys are going to start hitting the twine. Past experience should tell you that, you simply will not keep these guys off the scoresheet all year.

3. Shutdown defenseman? Big Joe will come around, keep in mind Greene, Commie, Smaby took the better part of two season's to develop. Add to this we have a tough-as-nails player in Kyle Radke. Maybe those two should play together again.

4. Tough-as-nails senior leader? It appears to me that Porter is willing to do whatever it takes to lead this team this year, score a goal, dig the puck out of the corner, make a big hit. Heck the only thing he hasn't done is drop the bucket and mitts, but I'm sure if he had to............. Fabian also has been nursing injury, who knows if his knee is 100%. He also suffered a shoulder or some other upper body injury, but I don't question his heart or his ability to provide leadership to underclassmen.

[stickboy1956]

1. Weak 06 class? Maybe part of it is injury related, part lack of playing time or playing with the right combination of people.

2 .50+ more goals? Maybe Oshie, Toews, Duncan, Watkins? Sooner or later these guys are going to start hitting the twine. Past experience should tell you that, you simply will not keep these guys off the scoresheet all year.

3. Shutdown defenseman? Big Joe will come around, keep in mind Greene, Commie, Smaby took the better part of two season's to develop. Add to this we have a tough-as-nails player in Kyle Radke. Maybe those two should play together again.

4. Tough-as-nails senior leader? It appears to me that Porter is willing to do whatever it takes to lead this team this year, score a goal, dig the puck out of the corner, make a big hit. Heck the only thing he hasn't done is drop the bucket and mitts, but I'm sure if he had to............. Fabian also has been nursing injury, who knows if his knee is 100%. He also suffered a shoulder or some other upper body injury, but I don't question his hear or his ability to provide leadership to underclassmen.

2. 50+ goals - remember they were here last year - we need the same production from them +50 more.

[THETRIOUXPER]

Stick, my point about that is simply those guys haven't started to "heat up" yet. However, there are others that I didn't list that can contribute as well, like Forney and Vandy.

[Siouxdonyms]

I'm sorry - you are right - I don't know the 06 class is weak.

Lee Goren, Jason Ulmer, Jay Panzer, Teeder Wynne, and Adam Calder.......five former Sioux players in the past 10 or so years, who would most likely qualify under your standards as part of a weak freshman class, yet were imperative in the winning of national titles (except for Wynne who was the team MVP his senior year). We can't have a Parise, Zajac, Bochenski, or Murray every single year. You've come to expect too much from 17 and 18 years old. Maturity is different in everyone and development into good college hockey players take time.

[SIOUXELEVENS]

If you watched Lee Goren his freshman year he had like two goals and looked very out of place,Colby Genoway is another and looked how they turned out.

[Siouxdonyms]

If you watched Lee Goren his freshman year he had like two goals and looked very out of place,Colby Genoway is another and looked how they turned out.

I can still hear Blais' voice from the bench yelling, "LEE!!!!"

[Sioux-per Villain]

We can't have a Parise, Zajac, Bochenski, or Murray every single year.

Why not?

[AZSIOUX]

Why not?

we have 2 of the best forwards in the entire nation on our team and duncan is right there as well. i say play those 3 together from here on out, well i guess when toews gets back in a month..........

[PCM]

2. 50+ goals - remember they were here last year - we need the same production from them +50 more.

The 03-04 Sioux team with Zach Parise and Brandon Bochenski that lost in the NCAA West Regional averaged 4.44 goals per game. The 04-05 Sioux team that made it all the way to the championship game averaged 3.02 goals per game. The 98-99 Sioux averaged almost 5 goals per game, but didn't make it out of the NCAA regionals. The 99-00 Sioux averaged a half goal per game less, but won the national championship in what was supposed to be a rebuilding year.

The idea that you have to replace all your scoring from one season to the next doesn't always follow. Of course, ideally, you'd like to, but history shows that it isn't an absolute necessity.

Last season's Sioux team, with its amazing (yet underachieving, according to buckyseive) freshman class, averaged 3.57 goals per game. So far, this season's Sioux team averages 3.19 goals per game. This season's team is actually scoring at a better rate than the 04-05 team that went to the Frozen Four and isn't terribly far behind last year's team that also went to the Frozen Four.

Both Sioux teams the past two years have had problems offensively until later in the season. It's possible that by the end of the season, this team will be averaging just as many goals per game as last year's team. They're not that far apart.

The biggest problem right now isn't that the freshman aren't scoring more, it's that the two offensive leaders -- Oshie and Toews -- aren't scoring as much as expected. Get these two players healthy and back on track and I'll bet you that this year's team will average just as many goals per game as last year's -- if not more.

Here's another thing to keep in mind: Of UND's 16 games to date, four have been against Brian Elliott, two have been against Bobby Goepfert and two have been against Ben Bishop. In other words, half of UND's games have been against three of the best goalies in college hockey. And it didn't help that Nathan Lawson -- another pretty good goalie -- stood on his head when the Sioux played at UAA.

The biggest problem right now isn't offense, it's defense. We're giving up 3.19 goals per game, which is the highest since the 01-02 season (3.68 GPG). But, again, the current goals against average isn't as bad as it might seem. The 96-97 national champion Sioux team gave up an average of 3.02 goals per game, but it also averaged 4.42 goals per game.

Bring the goals-for average up a half a goal and get the goals-against average down half a goal and it will work wonders for UND's won-loss record. Personally, I think those are achievable objectives. Given that the teams under Hakstol tend to play much better in the second half of the season than the first half, I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen.

[PCM]

If you watched Lee Goren his freshman year he had like two goals and looked very out of place,Colby Genoway is another and looked how they turned out.

Don't forget Bryan Lundbohm. Two goals as a freshman, 22 as a sophomore and 32 as a junior.

[buckysieve]

Last season's Sioux team, with it's amazing (yet underachieving, according to buckyseive) freshman class, averaged 3.57 goals per game. So far, this season's Sioux team averages 3.19 goals per game. This season's team is actually scoring at a better rate than the 04-05 team that went to the Frozen Four and isn't terribly far behind last year's team that also went to the Frozen Four.

What? I never said anything like that. UND had the best freshmen class in the nation last year IMO. In fact, I don't think another class was even close to them, including the Gophers. When did I ever say they were underachievers?

[PCM]

What? I never said anything like that. UND had the best freshmen class in the nation last year IMO. In fact, I don't think another class was even close to them, including the Gophers. When did I ever say they were underachievers?

How quickly he forgets.

[buckysieve]

How quickly he forgets.

You just showed a post where I said maybe UND(the team) underachieved during the regular season last year. I never said the freshmen class underachieved, never. They were the best in the nation hands down.

[PCM]

You just showed a post where I said maybe UND(the team) underachieved during the regular season last year. I never said the freshmen class underachieved, never. They were the best in the nation hands down.

I'm pretty sure they were on the team that you said underachieved.