Jesus camp

[GaryP]

Has anybody here heard of this?

"These are mere snippets of Rachel Grady and Heidi Ewing's documentary Jesus Camp, winner of a Special Jury Prize at this year's Tribeca Film Festival. With near-complete access to their subjects, the filmmakers follow Fischer, Levi and two young girls, Rachael, 9, and Tory, 10, from their homes to "Kids on Fire" summer camp in Devil's Lake, N.D., where they spend a week training to be soldiers in the Army of God." (Ironic that they chose DEVIL's Lake. Wanted to confront the beast in his home perhaps.)

http://www.csindy.com/csindy/current/film2.html

Here's some video from the camp;

http://tinyurl.com/gtbp6

IMO, some of this is a little scary. These kids should be allowed to look into religion when they get older and make up their minds when they are more able to think for themselves.

"The great trouble is that the preachers get the children from six to seven years of age and then it is almost impossible to do anything with them."

-- Thomas Edison

[BigGame]

Has anybody here heard of this?

"These are mere snippets of Rachel Grady and Heidi Ewing's documentary Jesus Camp, winner of a Special Jury Prize at this year's Tribeca Film Festival. With near-complete access to their subjects, the filmmakers follow Fischer, Levi and two young girls, Rachael, 9, and Tory, 10, from their homes to "Kids on Fire" summer camp in Devil's Lake, N.D., where they spend a week training to be soldiers in the Army of God." (Ironic that they chose DEVIL's Lake. Wanted to confront the beast in his home perhaps.)

http://www.csindy.com/csindy/current/film2.html

Here's some video from the camp;

http://tinyurl.com/gtbp6

IMO, some of this is a little scary. These kids should be allowed to look into religion when they get older and make up their minds when they are more able to think for themselves.

"The great trouble is that the preachers get the children from six to seven years of age and then it is almost impossible to do anything with them."

-- Thomas Edison

IMO, it's more than a little scary. I don't for one minute think this is done in an even handed way as the clip said, but it is really extreme and bordering on brainwashing children.

[redwing77]

It is scary, but many churches believe it is necessary because of the drop out rates among people "of age" when it comes to church.

If a kid likes church, they are more likely to drag their parents to church (or both parents if one is religious and one isn't).

I had a first grader whip out a picture bible and literally beg me to help her read it. I'm a public school teacher... it wasn't going to happen. But I did get to thinking: Why make a kid so gung ho about Church when they don't fully understand what's going on? Many of the religious concepts are so abstract...

All I could do was shrug. Take kids to church, that's not the big deal. But pushing religion on kids is just like pushing other things on kids. They'll take it at first and the, in the end, most will reject it because it's never been their choice.

My opinion.

[PCM]

How scary is that compared to this?

[fighting sue]

How scary is that compared to this?

I guess I don't see how the bomb-kids are relevant. Unless, you mean in the sense that they're having a viewpoint imposed upon them that they haven't really had an opportunity to dismiss, one that could be potentially harmful to them.

I wonder, however, is the Jesus Camp really all that different from the average Dick and Jane churchgoers and their 2.5 kids? Their views regarding religion may not be culturally extreme, but even families with moderate and liberal religious beliefs are still foisting a belief upon their children. I don't think it's as easy to say that the Jesus Camp is a better or worse way of imposing religous beliefs on kids.

What are your religious values? If they're not in line with the tenets of Jesus Camp, then you probably will be uncomfortable with whatever they teach.

Similarly, would people with religious beliefs be uncomfortable if children were being taught that there is no proof of God? That he's a fanciful story scared, confused people make up to deal with a complicated and ambiguous world? Or, what if parents taught their children that there are dozens of different "Gods" that people worship -- as many as varieties of peanut butter -- and no one has any proof of what the "true" one is?

(However, didn't South Park tell us it was the Mormons? Or Jehovah's Witnesses?)

[PCM]

I guess I don't see how the bomb-kids are relevant. Unless, you mean in the sense that they're having a viewpoint imposed upon them that they haven't really had an opportunity to dismiss, one that could be potentially harmful to them.

Yah think?

[choyt3]

<snip> -- as many as varieties of peanut butter -- and no one has any proof of what the "true" one is?

JIF is the only true peanut butter. All others are imposters.

[Shawn-O]

It is scary, but many churches believe it is necessary because of the drop out rates among people "of age" when it comes to church.

If a kid likes church, they are more likely to drag their parents to church (or both parents if one is religious and one isn't).

I had a first grader whip out a picture bible and literally beg me to help her read it. I'm a public school teacher... it wasn't going to happen. But I did get to thinking: Why make a kid so gung ho about Church when they don't fully understand what's going on? Many of the religious concepts are so abstract...

All I could do was shrug. Take kids to church, that's not the big deal. But pushing religion on kids is just like pushing other things on kids. They'll take it at first and the, in the end, most will reject it because it's never been their choice.

My opinion.

I agree with your point that public school is place for "reading, writing, 'rithmetic", PERIOD. That being said, there are plenty of public school districts out there (I can't speak to yours) that are pushing a social agenda in the name of diversity or tolerance, that is far more harmful to a kid than anything in a picture bible.

Again, just my opinion.

[star2city]

Why make a kid so gung ho about Church when they don't fully understand what's going on? Many of the religious concepts are so abstract...

Actually, children are more capable of comprending spiritual concepts than adults are. Most adults reject, discredit, and/or are ignorant of the unseen spiritual world. Children have a natural hunger to understand it, so they find it in substitute places/literature like Harry Potter.

[PCM]

I wonder, however, is the Jesus Camp really all that different from the average Dick and Jane churchgoers and their 2.5 kids?

As someone who grew up with "average Dick and Jane churchgoers" as parents, I'd say it's far different. And I'd also venture to say that what's being taught at these camps is far out of the mainstream of Christian teaching and parenting.

Their views regarding religion may not be culturally extreme, but even families with moderate and liberal religious beliefs are still foisting a belief upon their children.

That's what good parents do. They attempt to instill their children with values and beliefs that will help them grow into functioning members of society.

I don't think it's as easy to say that the Jesus Camp is a better or worse way of imposing religous beliefs on kids.

Any method of indoctrinating children with extremist views is potentially harmful.

[star2city]

Or, what if parents taught their children that there are dozens of different "Gods" that people worship -- as many as varieties of peanut butter -- and no one has any proof of what the "true" one is?

Actually, Christianity does teach, and actually agrees with Hinduism, ancient Hellenic beliefs, and tribal religions, that they are literally dozens or thousands of different gods or spiritual enties out there that desire worship. Christianity differs with with them in believeing that there is only one god that is truly Holy.

[Goon]

How scary is that compared to this?

I think that the link that PCM brought up is way more scarey in my opinion. None of these kids in the Jesus camp are talking about strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up mosques.

[GaryP]

It seems to me that extremism from any religion is something to avoid. Most religions teach that it is the way to the truth and light. So if you take that to the extreme (which isn't hard to imagine IMO) it would be easy to see these kids growing up to be on the violent side.

One of the clips I saw of the camp had a teacher saying that she wants the kids to be ready to "Lay their life down for Jesus". Now if she means in a martyr type situation that's one thing. But is a child going to be able to distinguish what may be a metaphor from the literal meaning of what she said?

It's true that right now Muslim extremists are probably more dangerous. But you know there are some extremist Christian groups out there too. Blowing up abortion clinics has happened in our fair land. If you type in "Christian Reconstructionism" into a serach engine you'll find some fright here in the USA who advocate a literal Biblical theocracy.

[CoteauRinkRat]

It's true that right now Muslim extremists are probably more dangerous. But you know there are some extremist Christian groups out there too. Blowing up abortion clinics has happened in our fair land.

I keep hearing this comparison being made, but can someone give me a number of how many abortion clinics have been blown up over the last 5 years?

Compare that number to the number of instances Muslim extremists have used car bombs, strapped bombs to themselves, and detonated the bombs in open markets and various places throughout the world.

[GaryP]

Here's some stats from more than 5 years ago.

http://tinyurl.com/hzg8s

I will readily concede that I'm happy to live in a country that has a majority of Christians rather than Muslims. But many Americans gloss over the parts of the Bible that could very easily be interpreted by violent -prone people to commit acts that are not "christian-like".

And indoctrinating young children as they seem to be doing at this camp seems to me to make violence more rahter than less likely.

[star2city]

And indoctrinating young children as they seem to be doing at this camp seems to me to make violence more rahter than less likely.

GaryP: I do believe your atheistical biases are showing.

If your supposition held true, the private Christian schools in this country would be the centers of violence. Perhaps if Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold and Jeff Wiese, kids known to be into the occult, would have attended a similar camp, no one would ever have heard of the Red Lake or Coumbine school massacres in our time.

[GaryP]

Thanks for noticing my anti-theistical bias. I'm very proud of it!

Are you saying that those who are prone to doing negative things never find a justification in the Bible? The Bible was used to justify the crusades, the inquistion, witch burnings, slavery and is still used to argue against stem-cell reseach, contaceptive devices and equality for women.

From what I have seen of this camp, one would be hard pressed to find similar techniques in a mainline parochial school.

Klebold-- Raised in a Jewish family. The big Jewish community center in Columbus OH is named after his mother's family.

http://members.tripod.com/tmiket/membership.htm

Harris--He was raised by a Christian family. He attended a youth center activity at a church 3 nights before the shootings. "Youth minister Larry Pambianco says that three nights before Columbine Eric Harris was at his youth outreach center."

http://www.pneumafoundation.com/pi_4_2000.jsp

His AOL member profile contains this phrase, "Nil Sine numine" or "Nothing without the Deity"

http://columbine.free2host.net/profiles2.html

Of course, we don't know to which deity he felt allegiance. Whether they were involved in the occult or not, their short tragic lives obviously included at least some theolgical training.

[star2city]

Thanks for noticing my anti-theistical bias. I'm very proud of it!

It's been the only consistent theme of your previous posts!

Are you saying that those who are prone to doing negative things never find a justification in the Bible? The Bible was used to justify the crusades, the inquistion, witch burnings, slavery and is still used to argue against stem-cell reseach, contaceptive devices and equality for women.

So, if, there are spiritual forces out there wanting to destroy and discredit faith, where would they attack first?

And Christian movements in that last two millenniums are largely responsible for the establishment of hospitals, for care of the invalid and handicapped, for the abolishment of slavery, for child-welfare laws, for education, for liberty , for non-violent peace movements, for civil rights, for women

[PCM]

The are two big differences between the Jesus camps and the Muslim children being indoctrinated as Jew-hating, American-hating martyrs.

The Jesus camps are not the norm in this country. They don't represent mainstream Christianity. The people who run them are marginalized and looked down upon by American society. Our government has little tolerance for such groups when they become prone to violence. (Remember the Branch Dividians?)

The exact opposite is true in countries where radical Muslim teachings are the norm. Children are indoctrinated in hate, raised in a culture that glorifies death and taught that violence is the answer to their problems.

Anyone who can't see and understand the difference needs a serious dose of reality.

[GaryP]

They are most certainly not the norm. But this type of evangelizing is on the upswing. Even Pres. Bush recently stated that he thinks America is in the middle of the 3rd "Great Awakening".

This can indeed be positive. But it could also have some negative impact. The "Jesus Camp" model is I think perhaps a harbinger of things to come.

Star2city-- You are certainly correct in that there have been many positive outcomes of religion and/or Christianity.

You are also right that I don't understand lots of things about religion! I've had deja vu experiences also. Come to think of it my most vivid one was in Grand Forks about 35 years ago. But just because I can't explain something and/or science can't explain it yet does not make me jump to the conclusion that God did it.

If I could live a few thousand more years I think that almost all the things that are unexplainable will become scientific knowledge. After all people long ago made up stories about thunder and where the sound originated.

Take care.

[PCM]

They are most certainly not the norm. But this type of evangelizing is on the upswing. Even Pres. Bush recently stated that he thinks America is in the middle of the 3rd "Great Awakening".

This can indeed be positive. But it could also have some negative impact. The "Jesus Camp" model is I think perhaps a harbinger of things to come.

Personally, I'd rather spend my time worrying about and dealing with "things" that are already here rather than imagining and conjuring up "things" that don't exist and aren't likely to.

Edited September 20, 2006 by PCM

[AccountingStu]

This thread will implode any moment now...

While the topic is very interesting and ought to be discussed, I'm not so sure ...

umm...

yeah, I'm not sure this is a good idea.

Besides, children with ducktails have and will always continue to scare the s*** out of me (there haven't been any kids with ducktails that have failed to threatened me with murder, at any point in my life).

I will go cower in the corner with the innocents now.

[GaryP]

It's rather easy to say that nothing is going to come of this if one is of the majority faith. Or according to this the controlling political party.

Here's a snippet from an ABC news release;

"Speaking in tongues, weeping for salvation, praying for an end to abortion and worshipping a picture of President Bush — these are some of the activities at Pastor Becky Fischer's Bible camp in North Dakota, "Kids on Fire," subject of the provocative new documentary, "Jesus Camp."

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=2455343&page=1

Note the "worshipping a picture of President Bush" . I suppose that that is just your ordinary Sunday School down at the Lutheran Church.

[PCM]

Note the "worshipping a picture of President Bush" . I suppose that that is just your ordinary Sunday School down at the Lutheran Church.

That is scary. In another 5-10 years, some of these kids will attempt to vote for a man who can no longer run for president.

[Hammersmith]

That is scary. In another 5-10 years, some of these kids will attempt to vote for a man who can no longer run for president.

Actually, I think that is pretty scary. Not because I dislike Bush(which I do), but because I don't think any human should be worshipped. Worshipping >> blind obedience >> fanaticism >> "violence is okay because it's in <insert deity>'s name." Once that first step of worshipping a living person is made, it's not hard to transfer the devotion to the current "correct thinking" leader. Somehow, I doubt that Washington, Franklin, Adams and Jefferson had bowing and praying to a presidential portrait in mind when they decided that the head of the Church of England was not their cup of tea.

Quite frankly, I despise any person, organization or religion that espouses a "us vs. them" philosophy. The moment you do that, you dehumanize your "enemy", which is the first, dangerous, step towards jihad or genocide. As you might expect, I'm not too fond of our current political system(both halves). And yes, this does apply to my Bison/Sioux feelings. As I said in another post, any negative feelings I have toward UND are aimed at individuals, not the institution. For example, I do not dislike Roger Thomas because he was from UND, I dislike him because of his comments and actions. Those negative feelings do not transfer to Tom Buning. I will judge him completely independently of his predecessors.

Sorry for ranting; this topic kind of pushes my buttons. Have a good afternoon.