Fullerton Still Talking Big Sky Expansion

[bincitysioux]

Perhaps it is not the Big Sky which UBC has their sights set on.

UBC tantalizingly close to NCAA nod

Philip was originally focused on Division I and, while that's still the aim, he said

Wednesday his school would accept Division II membership while they worked

their way inside the velvet ropes. While in Division II, the school could also take

part in two Division-I sports.

[DUGrad]

You are correct that NDSU and SDSU would be huge rivals, but they would be regardless of which conference UND is invited to. Look at Florida/Florida State. Different conferences, huge rivalry. I would look to expand upon what UND would already have.

I disagree with your perception of Big Sky not being more prestigious. Whether or not they are just known for football or not the conference is well known. The main reason anyone has heard of the Mid-Con is throught the expolits of Valpo in MBB. They are leaving for the Horizon. What does that say for the Mid-Con? Look at the overall stability of the Big Sky over the past 20 years and compare that to the Mid-Con. I am not trying to run the Mid-Con down, I just don't think that it is as highly regarded as the Big Sky.

I still disagree with your perception of the Big Sky. Here is why... Indy, Chicago, Kansas City, Detroit and Tulsa. These are a few of the cities where there are Mid-Con teams. With big market cities comes exposure as a conference. I think that the folks in North and South Dakota probably had heard of the BSC due to their georgraphic closeness to Montana and Montana State, I don't believe that the BSC is more "known" than that of the Mid-Con.

If we're honest with each other the only sport that is really known nationally (among all D1 schools) is Basketball. Most people around the major cities in the country don't know much about D1AA football - even though the BSC has had success in that sport. If you ask most college sports fans around the nation, they have heard of schools like Oral Roberts and Valpo(due to the national bball tournament).

While you might want UND to be a part of the Big Sky (almost entirely due to football) you will find that the lure of D1 basketball will SOON overshadow your football program(regardless of DII success). If UND really wants to make it's name known nationally (because let's be honest most the nation could care less about hockey) the smart move would be to go east to the Mid-Con.

I am wondering what the folks over at USD think. They don't have any connection to DU, UBC or the Montana schools. I would think that they might be leaning towards the Mid-Con. After all, I think that they are much more into bball than baskeball.... If they lean towards the Mid-Con this might kill your chances for a travel partner to the BSC (even though no one has seemed to mention them in this discussion).

[DUGrad]

Perhaps it is not the Big Sky which UBC has their sights set on.

UBC tantalizingly close to NCAA nod

If they went D2, what sports would compete at the D1 level? Hockey and ?? Iguess everyone assumed that they would go D1 right away due to size but in some respects there might be value to go d2.

[bincitysioux]

I don't think that there is a huge difference between the Big Sky and the Mid-Con. Both have their pros and cons. The reason I have been such an adamant backer of DI at UND is mostly because I don't like the direction the NCC is going. Personally, I think the Mid-Con just got alot more attractive this past week, but even before the additions of the SU's, I think it was really a toss up.

Obviously the biggest draw of the BSC is the Montana schools. Those two schools are true peers of the Dakota schools in almost every area, academically, athletically, and demographically. Athletically, I think they are the model that the SU's tried to follow in their move up and the model that UND will try to acheive. There is also a history/rivalry with those schools from the college division days before the Divisional classifications were implemented that the Dakota schools would like to renew.

The GWFC has been successful since it started, but there is no autobid, and even if membership grows to meed the requirements to be granted one, there is no guarantee that it will receive one. So the Big Sky is more attractive there.

Contrary to popular belief, the BSC is a better basketball conferene than the Mid-Con. The Mid-Con had the third worst conference RPI last year. With Valparaiso leaving, the gap will only widen. On the other hand, that could mean that the autobid to the big dance from the Mid-Con is more up for grabs year after year.

The Mid-Con sports offerings fits UND better than the Big Sky. BSC doesn't sponsor baseball or softball (although it has been debated whether or not these sports will survive the UND move to DI). More importantly, the BSC doesn't sponsor Swimming and Diving. These two sports are very important and successful at UND.

Travel is better in the Mid-Con. Even before the additions of the SU's it was better. Timezone changes would have a larger effect on our athletes in the BSC as well as playing at altitude could be disadvantage.

I think it is a real big "if" that UND winds up in either of these conferences in a timely fashion. Which ever one invites us (assuming one of them will at some point , that is the one that I think is the most attractive.

I am thinking that the Mid-Con is gonna be our home around 2010-2012, somewhere in that area. The additions of the SU's places us within the Mid-Con footprint. The Mid-Con will be down to only six members that sponsor swimming & diving after this season. UND should designate these two sports as their "early qualifiers" and use the strength and quality of these programs to lobby for affiliate membership in 2009. We most likely will join the MidCon-governed GWFC in 2009. These three things will help establish ties to the conference and make UND a familar and known commodity the next time that expansion comes around.

Hammersmith is correct that any conference is better than no conference. I'm sure we will find that out soon enough.

[bincitysioux]

If they went D2, what sports would compete at the D1 level? Hockey and ?? Iguess everyone assumed that they would go D1 right away due to size but in some respects there might be value to go d2.

They can have one men's sport and one women's sport other than football or basketball. I'd assume that men's hockey would be the obvious choice for the men's sport. They do have women's hockey as well.

[bincitysioux]

I am wondering what the folks over at USD think. They don't have any connection to DU, UBC or the Montana schools. I would think that they might be leaning towards the Mid-Con. After all, I think that they are much more into bball than baskeball.... If they lean towards the Mid-Con this might kill your chances for a travel partner to the BSC (even though no one has seemed to mention them in this discussion).

I think all along that SDSU was more in favor of the Mid-Con than the Big Sky, but when they moved in 2003 the BSC was talking expansion and the Mid-Con was not. You're correct, basketball is far more important/popular at SDSU and USD than is football.

[NDSU grad]

You're correct, basketball is far more important/popular at SDSU and USD than is football.

Especially after tonight.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[GeauxSioux]

Especially after tonight.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

That one has to be painful. A loss to a D III non-scholarship team.

[GeauxSioux]

I still disagree with your perception of the Big Sky. Here is why... Indy, Chicago, Kansas City, Detroit and Tulsa. These are a few of the cities where there are Mid-Con teams. With big market cities comes exposure as a conference. I think that the folks in North and South Dakota probably had heard of the BSC due to their georgraphic closeness to Montana and Montana State, I don't believe that the BSC is more "known" than that of the Mid-Con.

If we're honest with each other the only sport that is really known nationally (among all D1 schools) is Basketball. Most people around the major cities in the country don't know much about D1AA football - even though the BSC has had success in that sport. If you ask most college sports fans around the nation, they have heard of schools like Oral Roberts and Valpo(due to the national bball tournament).

While you might want UND to be a part of the Big Sky (almost entirely due to football) you will find that the lure of D1 basketball will SOON overshadow your football program(regardless of DII success). If UND really wants to make it's name known nationally (because let's be honest most the nation could care less about hockey) the smart move would be to go east to the Mid-Con.

I am wondering what the folks over at USD think. They don't have any connection to DU, UBC or the Montana schools. I would think that they might be leaning towards the Mid-Con. After all, I think that they are much more into bball than baskeball.... If they lean towards the Mid-Con this might kill your chances for a travel partner to the BSC (even though no one has seemed to mention them in this discussion).

Games against Montana and Montana State will put butts in the seats in BB. The same can't be said for games against Centenary and perhaps to a lesser extent Oral Roberts. Athletic departments run off money. Games against Big Sky teams would attract larger attendance, more $$.

[82SiouxGuy]

I've never seen a post filled with more contradictions in my entire posting career. First you tell me that I shouldn't read anything that I don't like, and then ignore you're own advice and tell me about why I shouldn't post my opinion. How about this, if you don't like my opinion DON'T READ IT. Then you talk about how you like to read about possible scenarios, but I guess that doesn't include scenarios that aren't positive for UND. You should maybe modify you're post to say "Count me as 1 person that likes to read the different HOMER scenarios". You say you're very aware that nobody on this board knows what is going to happen to UND, and yet you seem to have the need to attack a post that isn't positive for a scenario. If you already know that it most likely won't occur, then what was you're problem with what I posted? I was merely stating what you already knew in you're head, right?

The truth is that I posted something not positive for UND, and it pissed you off. Next time come out and say that, and don't pretend that you're not being a homer.

Where did I tell you that you shouldn't post your opinion? I said that if you thought that this specific line of discussion was getting old you had the option to not read it. Maybe I strongly suggested it. I didn't say anything about not posting. And don't worry, I was far from pissed. You will be able to tell if I ever get pissed. Maybe the little smiley should have been a clue for you.

I don't have a problem with you or anyone else disagreeing with me (or anyone else) or debating a topic. I do have a problem when you treat people like they are stupid or crazy just because they say something you don't like or disagree with. You sometimes have a very confrontational style as well as being negative. That combination does not help a discussion. Does this sound familiar?

That scenario is so crazy its almost breath taking that people are able to look at that and think, "yeah, thats a real possibility". I mean, come on, that has as much chance of happening as me spitting a nuclear bomb.

Of course I am going to prefer reading a positive scenario more than a negative scenario. I guess I'm funny like that, I would prefer to dream about something good happening. That doesn't mean I don't also want to read an honest evaluation that doesn't look as rosy. But after you realize there is a possibility that UND could be an independent for many years, how many different ways can you look at that same scenario. Then you look for different ways to avoid that scenario whether the ideas are far-fetched or not. The bottom line is UND and all Sioux fans have to be realistic about the move to D I and look at all of the possibilities so that alternatives can be explored to make the move successful.

If you want to call me a homer, go ahead. I resemble that remark since I am a UND grad, grew up watching UND sports and have season tickets for UND football and hockey. I also try to keep an open mind and I am willing to explore potential options that will benefit the school. The best way to find a great solution is to look at as many options as possible and pick the best one. During that process you can eliminate options that don't work. But you don't have to make fun of those ideas or the people that suggest them.

[DUGrad]

Games against Montana and Montana State will put butts in the seats in BB. The same can't be said for games against Centenary and perhaps to a lesser extent Oral Roberts. Athletic departments run off money. Games against Big Sky teams would attract larger attendance, more $$.

That's exactly what I don't understand.

So my question is where all the extra money comes from? Certainly the BSC schools would be less of a draw in basketball than the Mid-Con. With the Mid-Con comes with the following advantages:

1. Playing NDSU/SDSU and possibly USD twice year in basketball - after all with the theory about the BSC, no where is it mentioned that USD would be in that conference.

2. While North Dakotans might love to play the Montana teams, the reality is that the Mid-Con's team are MUCH MUCH closer. It is very possible that (outside of the dakota schools) UMKC and Western Illinois would become rivals since their proximity is closer than most of the schools in the Big Sky.

3. Time Zones.... With the addition of UND the BSC will span 3 timezones, there will little to NO TV/Newspaper coverage same day (for TV) and next day (for newspapers) for games that are played in the Pacific Time Zone - this would include games against portland, sac state and UBC. If these games are played with a 7pm start, the games would end around 9:00 or 9:30. That would mean it could possibly be 11 or 11:30 Central Time. That would obviously miss the news and most newspapers have deadlines of midnight for next day print. I doubt that most of those games would get published.

4. With a significant percentage of your games in the pacific time zone and lack of tv/newspaper that will make it harder for people to keep up on what's going on with UND athletics. That will single handedly have an effect on the casual fan - which makes up at least 10% of each home draw.

The way I see it, the ability to play home games against NDSU, SDSU, USD, Oral Roberts, UMKC and Western Illinois has way more benefit($$$) than one homegame a year versus Montana and Montana State....

The choice should be clear. I don't understand why there are not threads with scenarios of how UND will get into the Mid-Con. Your chances are MUCH MUCH MUCH better there than in the BSC.

After all, it's hard to get interested in teams when you only hear about 1/3rd of the games.... Yes, and I know about Big Sky TV.... The fact is that MOST fans will not pay for such a service. Maybe the die-hards but 90%+ won't spend money on that.

[bincitysioux]

I don't understand why there are not threads with scenarios of how UND will get into the Mid-Con. Your chances are MUCH MUCH MUCH better there than in the BSC.

There are!

I am thinking that the Mid-Con is gonna be our home around 2010-2012, somewhere in that area. The additions of the SU's places us within the Mid-Con footprint. The Mid-Con will be down to only six members that sponsor swimming & diving after this season. UND should designate these two sports as their "early qualifiers" and use the strength and quality of these programs to lobby for affiliate membership in 2009. We most likely will join the MidCon-governed GWFC in 2009. These three things will help establish ties to the conference and make UND a familar and known commodity the next time that expansion comes around.

1. Playing NDSU/SDSU and possibly USD twice year in basketball - after all with the theory about the BSC, no where is it mentioned that USD would be in that conference.

I don't think we should really be talking about USD just yet, because we don't know what they're going to do. Personally I am really hoping they go DI with us. It would be a big help to UND, especially during those independent years to know we'll at least have one game to excited for in all the sports. But they could just as easily decide to stay DII. They've struggled for many years and are now getting to the point where they've become an upper echelon DII program, they might like to stay there.

Of course there would be no bigger draw in basketball or football than NDSU. But games against Montana and Montana St. would nearly always draw more interest than either South Dakota school. There is also Idaho St. (flagship school) which is the original idea/opponent behind UND's Potato Bowl. And of course Northern Colorado who UND and our fans are very familiar with.

Discounting the SU's, the only Mid-Con school that the majority of UND fans are probably familiar with is Oral Roberts, a recognizable school, but one UND has no history with.

[MplsBison]

USD is going DI. It's basically a fact. They're just going to wait until Nov. to announce it.

Idaho State is not a flagship school, either. They are not a land grant school. The state of Idaho gave the U of Idaho the state's Morrill money to start ag and engineering colleges at the U rather than starting a new school like the state of ND did. ISU used to be a junior college, just like Boise State used to be. The U of Idaho used to be the only major university in the state. Then with growth both Boise and and ISU became 4 year schools and so on.

You might be suprised to know that Arizona State and Florida State are also not land grant schools. There are several other "[] State" schools that are also not land grants.

[bincitysioux]

USD is going DI. It's basically a fact. They're just going to wait until Nov. to announce it.

Idaho State is not a flagship school, either. They are not a land grant school. The state of Idaho gave the U of Idaho the state's Morrill money to start ag and engineering colleges at the U rather than starting a new school like the state of ND did. ISU used to be a junior college, just like Boise State used to be. The U of Idaho used to be the only major university in the state. Then with growth both Boise and and ISU became 4 year schools and so on.

You might be suprised to know that Arizona State and Florida State are also not land grant schools. There are several other "[] State" schools that are also not land grants.

I never said they were a land-grant school, just a flagship school. UND is not a land-grant either, but they are a flagship school. Idaho St. is the second largest university in Idaho with a larger enrollment than any of the four Dakota schools. All I meant was they're one of the largest, state-named schools in Idaho. Since UND is also, I think casual fans will be more interested if they play someone like Idaho St. than they would when they play a school named IUPUI, or Oakland.

[DUGrad]

I never said they were a land-grant school, just a flagship school. UND is not a land-grant either, but they are a flagship school. Idaho St. is the second largest university in Idaho with a larger enrollment than any of the four Dakota schools. All I meant was they're one of the largest, state-named schools in Idaho. Since UND is also, I think casual fans will be more interested if they play someone like Idaho St. than they would when they play a school named IUPUI, or Oakland.

For some reason I don't think that the casual fans would know the history of ANY of the schools not named Montana, North Dakota or South Dakota. Further more I think that the casual fan will go to any game which is convenient for them - regardless of name.

Why wouldn't you want to be in a conference who has IUPUI - the only school abreviation that can be spelled the same forward and backward!

[GeauxSioux]

That's exactly what I don't understand.

So my question is where all the extra money comes from? Certainly the BSC schools would be less of a draw in basketball than the Mid-Con. With the Mid-Con comes with the following advantages:

1. Playing NDSU/SDSU and possibly USD twice year in basketball - after all with the theory about the BSC, no where is it mentioned that USD would be in that conference.

2. While North Dakotans might love to play the Montana teams, the reality is that the Mid-Con's team are MUCH MUCH closer. It is very possible that (outside of the dakota schools) UMKC and Western Illinois would become rivals since their proximity is closer than most of the schools in the Big Sky.

3. Time Zones.... With the addition of UND the BSC will span 3 timezones, there will little to NO TV/Newspaper coverage same day (for TV) and next day (for newspapers) for games that are played in the Pacific Time Zone - this would include games against portland, sac state and UBC. If these games are played with a 7pm start, the games would end around 9:00 or 9:30. That would mean it could possibly be 11 or 11:30 Central Time. That would obviously miss the news and most newspapers have deadlines of midnight for next day print. I doubt that most of those games would get published.

4. With a significant percentage of your games in the pacific time zone and lack of tv/newspaper that will make it harder for people to keep up on what's going on with UND athletics. That will single handedly have an effect on the casual fan - which makes up at least 10% of each home draw.

The way I see it, the ability to play home games against NDSU, SDSU, USD, Oral Roberts, UMKC and Western Illinois has way more benefit($$$) than one homegame a year versus Montana and Montana State....

The choice should be clear. I don't understand why there are not threads with scenarios of how UND will get into the Mid-Con. Your chances are MUCH MUCH MUCH better there than in the BSC.

After all, it's hard to get interested in teams when you only hear about 1/3rd of the games.... Yes, and I know about Big Sky TV.... The fact is that MOST fans will not pay for such a service. Maybe the die-hards but 90%+ won't spend money on that.

Go back a few posts where I said that UND would still schedule NDSU and SDSU, in addition to Big Sky schools. The more recognizable the name the more likely you are to have fans turn out. Getting into the Big Sky would mean that the sizable alumni base in both Denver and Seattle/Portland would be able to see the Sioux play, hence more support ($$).

I'm not discounting the Mid-Con, I'm just saying the Big Sky is more attractive. Ask most NDSU fans a year ago and they would tell you the same thing. Some will still say it.

[DUGrad]

Go back a few posts where I said that UND would still schedule NDSU and SDSU, in addition to Big Sky schools. The more recognizable the name the more likely you are to have fans turn out. Getting into the Big Sky would mean that the sizable alumni base in both Denver and Seattle/Portland would be able to see the Sioux play, hence more support ($$).

I'm not discounting the Mid-Con, I'm just saying the Big Sky is more attractive. Ask most NDSU fans a year ago and they would tell you the same thing. Some will still say it.

Why do you believe that there are more UND grads in Portland and Denver than in Chicago, Indy, Kansas City and Detroit??? For some reason I think that North Dakota grads probably stay in the Mid-West. I would be willing to bet that there are more grads in those four cities than in Portland and Denver.

There might be non conference games every few years between NDSU/SDSU and UND. It won't happen every year though. The lure of big mney from teams like Minnesota, Iowa, etc is too much to pass up. Given the choice, NDSU would take the money and run ---- every time.

[DUGrad]

I'm not discounting the Mid-Con, I'm just saying the Big Sky is more attractive. Ask most NDSU fans a year ago and they would tell you the same thing. Some will still say it.

Regarding the fans who want Big Sky... Do they know that NDSU would have to add tennis and find homes form Baseball, Softball, Mens Soccer??? While those are not big money sports they certainly are important (especially softball which I believe had much success at the D2 level).

The Mid-Con is a much better match for NDSU.

[Hansel]

NDSU's Alumni Map

Does UND have something similar?

It would be interesting to see where the alumni bases really are

[bincitysioux]

NDSU's Alumni Map

Does UND have something similar?

It would be interesting to see where the alumni bases really are

I saw one of those on bisonville once, and I looked for one for UND but could never find it. It sure would be nice.

[WYOBISONMAN]

I would suspect the distribution of UND alums is similar. It always seems to me that it is the students and alums from MN that have the toughest time understanding that the majority of alums (outside of MN and ND) reside in the Western 1/2 of the US. North Dakota is much more of a Western state than it is Midwestern.

[MplsBison]

I never said they were a land-grant school, just a flagship school.

Well, I suppose the definition of "flagship" is subjctive.

I would say ISU is probably at best the 4th most popular school in Idaho after Boise, U of ID, and Wash. State.

[GeauxSioux]

I would suspect the distribution of UND alums is similar. It always seems to me that it is the students and alums from MN that have the toughest time understanding that the majority of alums (outside of MN and ND) reside in the Western 1/2 of the US. North Dakota is much more of a Western state than it is Midwestern.

I tend to agree that alumni distribution for both UND and NDSU would in all probability be very similar. The campuses are nearly the same size and have pretty much the same kids attending. Why wouldn't they be going the same directions upon graduation.

When I graduated in the mid 80's most of the graduates were going to MSP, Denver, Seattle and Phoenix. I know of one friend who went to Chicago. Detroit, Indy and KC were not hot on the list. In my post regarding Sioux fans attending games, I purposely put Seattle with Portland, as I know many grads in the Seattle metro that would drive down to Portland to see the Sioux.

I forgot to mention the large alumni base in Phoenix, who might make the trek north to Flagstaff for games.

I saw some numbers on where the UND alumni are a few years ago. I'll try to put my hands on it again. Thanks for the map Hansel.

[star2city]

Well, I suppose the definition of "flagship" is subjctive.

I would say ISU is probably at best the 4th most popular school in Idaho after Boise, U of ID, and Wash. State.

Idaho is really three distinct regions: Southeast, Southwest (Boise), and North. Each of these have different allegiances, with U of Idaho being the only one having a decent level of state-wide support.

Southeast Idaho is practically an extension of Utah, so BYU is by far THE school. ISU, while having high support in Pocatello, would probably come in third in its region after BYU-Idaho if BYU-I still had athletics. U of Idaho, U of Utah and Utah State also have some support

In Southwest Idaho, Boise St is certainly first, followed by Idaho and then probably BYU. In North Idaho, the Vandals are clearly the most popular, although WSU probably gets some following.

[star2city]

Getting back to the topic. On the Sunbelt Conference website, their Commissioner, Wright Waters, answers questions from fans on a monthly basis. This particular answer potentially affects both the Big Sky and Great West.

Ask The Sunbelt Commissioner

Greg: It has been a couple of years since I last checked in but rest assured I have been following your conference's progress. It appears you are on the right track but there are two yet to be realized opportunities that may benefit the SBC: 1) Offer the University of Denver to another conference and 2) convince WKU to go D-1A in football. Can you please comment on what you believe these strategic moves would mean financially to your conference (please take travel expenses and one less school with which to split revenue into account)?

Commissioner Waters: Greg, I think there is some merit in both comments, these are decision that must be win-win for the conference and the school; however. There is certainly merit in IA football, that has been well documented but it is absolutely an institutional decision. The other issue is more complex, Denver is a good member of the conference, and they joined the league at the request of the conference after a unanimous vote of the members. They have done nothing wrong and in fact they have done a lot right. You don