Why do we want to honor the Sioux nation?

[larsensa]

I was thinking today, as an alum and huge Sioux fan , why do we still want to honor the Sioux nation when they don't seem to care about it? Why do we want to honor a group who turns their backs on the University of North Dakota? I think the only thing that is hostile and abusive is our relationship with the Sioux nation. We spend all of our time kissing their butts and they show no interest. Sounds a lot like an abusive relationship to me. What have the Sioux done for us lately? It is really going to suck if we see the Sioux tradition go away but I am to the point were I don't care anymore. The Sioux aren't fighting for UND they are fighting against UND. Why do we want their name again?

[Sioux-cia]

The Sioux people we are honoring are the Sioux who lived in the Great Plains, survived the harsh elements of the region, maintained as the most important part of their life-their children/their family, they had a strong committment to their religion, they were strong/fearless warriors who fought for what they believed while facing insurmountable odds.

Many Sioux people today maintain their culture, learn their ancient language in addition to moving forward with the times. Many Native American tribes of today are facing different enemies that are killing them; disease, alcoholism, drug abuse, a greater than 50% high school drop out rate. The University of North Dakota is one of the few institutions in the country who have programs to help Native Americans fight these enemies. Indians into Medicine, Nursing, Psychology, etc and new programs such as Elder Health and Health promotion. American Indians were almost entirely responsible for the grant money that makes these programs possible. They have the choice as to where to house these programs. They chose the University of North Dakota.

It's my belief that this country did do harm to the Native American and that we should help them help themselves. I also don't believe that the Sioux name and logo should be tied to that help in any way. American Indians are not a school name and logo. They are their history, their accomplishments, their culture and they way they live their lives. American Indians believe this also. There are American Indians who believe so strongly in a name that they oppose anyone other then themselves using it. That is their right.

Our right is to use any name and logo we choose. We choose to have a Native American name and logo and we use it in a non-hostile and abusive manner.

[WiSioux]

The Sioux people we are honoring are the Sioux who lived in the Great Plains, survived the harsh elements of the region, maintained as the most important part of their life-their children/their family, they had a strong committment to their religion, they were strong/fearless warriors who fought for what they believed while facing insurmountable odds.

Many Sioux people today maintain their culture, learn their ancient language in addition to moving forward with the times. Many Native American tribes of today are facing different enemies that are killing them; disease, alcoholism, drug abuse, a greater than 50% high school drop out rate. The University of North Dakota is one of the few institutions in the country who have programs to help Native Americans fight these enemies. Indians into Medicine, Nursing, Psychology, etc and new programs such as Elder Health and Health promotion. American Indians were almost entirely responsible for the grant money that makes these programs possible. They have the choice as to where to house these programs. They chose the University of North Dakota.

It's my belief that this country did do harm to the Native American and that we should help them help themselves. I also don't believe that the Sioux name and logo should be tied to that help in any way. American Indians are not a school name and logo. They are their history, their accomplishments, their culture and they way they live their lives. American Indians believe this also. There are American Indians who believe so strongly in a name that they oppose anyone other then themselves using it. That is their right.

Our right is to use any name and logo we choose. We choose to have a Native American name and logo and we use it in a non-hostile and abusive manner.

great post!

[larsensa]

The Sioux people we are honoring are the Sioux who lived in the Great Plains, survived the harsh elements of the region, maintained as the most important part of their life-their children/their family, they had a strong committment to their religion, they were strong/fearless warriors who fought for what they believed while facing insurmountable odds.

Many Sioux people today maintain their culture, learn their ancient language in addition to moving forward with the times. Many Native American tribes of today are facing different enemies that are killing them; disease, alcoholism, drug abuse, a greater than 50% high school drop out rate. The University of North Dakota is one of the few institutions in the country who have programs to help Native Americans fight these enemies. Indians into Medicine, Nursing, Psychology, etc and new programs such as Elder Health and Health promotion. American Indians were almost entirely responsible for the grant money that makes these programs possible. They have the choice as to where to house these programs. They chose the University of North Dakota.

It's my belief that this country did do harm to the Native American and that we should help them help themselves. I also don't believe that the Sioux name and logo should be tied to that help in any way. American Indians are not a school name and logo. They are their history, their accomplishments, their culture and they way they live their lives. American Indians believe this also. There are American Indians who believe so strongly in a name that they oppose anyone other then themselves using it. That is their right.

Our right is to use any name and logo we choose. We choose to have a Native American name and logo and we use it in a non-hostile and abusive manner.

You have said good things but I don't get why we care about using it anymore? Yes, the name has a huge amount of tradition and history behind it but, IMHO, it has become tarnished by the modern Sioux not seeing it as an honor nor, I am guessing, do many other Native Americans. In the meantime, UND continues to kiss butt mainly as a way to try keep the Sioux happy so UND can keep the logo while the Sioux aren't kissing back.

Don't get me wrong, it is hard for me to imagine UND without the name and logo, etc... but maybe it is time for UND to take control of the issue again by changing the name and never having to deal with it again? How about the Fighting Red or Fighting Floods or Fighting Green or something like that. We could think of many cool names for UND that would take some time to get used to but using the Sioux name isn't worth it anymore unless, of course, the tribes do something that indicates they see it as an honor and support it. Even then, I am not sure it is worth it, because who knows when they will change their minds again and this whole process will start over again. I think it may be time to end the tradition and start a new one.

Maybe I am crazy but I think UND, as an honorable institution, should think seriously about where it decides to place honor in the future. I think Native Americans deserve to be honored but if they don't appreciate it and don't see it at an honor then what's the point?

[Sioux-cia]

You 'don't get' why we're using the name and logo or why we're fighting to keep it. I do.

If and when we change the name, it won't be because some small minded, egotistical, self important, self serving, self rightious, reverse discriminatory group demands and dictates that we do or suffer the consequences.

[NDviaEP]

This may be the wrong time to ask this question... but why do we feel like we are in such debt to Native Americans, but not as much to African Americans... taking them from their home and making them slaves seems just as bad as kicking someone off their own land. How come Native American tribes get land, money, ect, while African Americans get....

[larsensa]

You 'don't get' why we're using the name and logo or why we're fighting to keep it. I do.

If and when we change the name, it won't be because some small minded, egotistical, self important, self serving, self rightious, reverse discriminatory group demands and dictates that we do or suffer the consequences.

You are sounding a bit Hostile and Abusive!

I grew up in Grand Forks and lived there for 24 years. I dreamed of playing for the Sioux one day while I was growing up playing goalie all the way through high school at RR. Currently, my home office has Sioux stuff all over it. I have a green car and my license plate frames are UND and I have Fighting Sioux Logo window emblems on each of my rear passenger windows of my car. I have a Sioux blanket. I get crap from my friends in the Chicago area for the number of Sioux hats and other Sioux clothes I wear. I have been up to the Badger series many years since I have lived in the area and made it to the BC/UND Frozen Four game. I was in Detroit in 1987 to watch the Sioux win the NCAA. My entire family in GF are season ticket holders and have been since the 70s.

What don't I get about why we are using the name and logo and fighting to keep it?

[NDviaEP]

Don't get me wrong, it is hard for me to imagine UND without the name and logo, etc... but maybe it is time for UND to take control of the issue again by changing the name and never having to deal with it again? How about the Fighting Red

Haha, fighting Red... I'm sure that would go over well...

[larsensa]

Haha, fighting Red... I'm sure that would go over well...

Fighting Red meaning the Red River!

[Sioux-cia]

This may be the wrong time to ask this question... but why do we feel like we are in such debt to Native Americans, but not as much to African Americans... taking them from their home and making them slaves seems just as bad as kicking someone off their own land. How come Native American tribes get land, money, ect, while African Americans get....

Off topic. You can start here, http://www.swagga.com/reparation.htm

[Sioux-cia]

What don't I get about why we are using the name and logo and fighting to keep it?

If and when we change the name, it won't be because some small minded, egotistical, self important, self serving, self rightious, reverse discriminatory group demands and dictates that we do or suffer the consequences.

I refer to to the Kupchella Says thread, I agree with Kup. And to PCM's http://areavoices.com/hottalk/?blog=2222

(I was born and raised in Chicago; family, friends and environment resulted in my not willingly bending over for anyone!!! )

[ScottM]

The Sioux people we are honoring are the Sioux who lived in the Great Plains, survived the harsh elements of the region, maintained as the most important part of their life-their children/their family, they had a strong committment to their religion, they were strong/fearless warriors who fought for what they believed while facing insurmountable odds.

Come to think of it, the Sioux were kicked out of the northern forests by the Chippewa, often had problems at the hands of the Pawnee and Blackfeet, got the credit for Little Big Horn while the Cheyenne did most of the fighting, and eventually were defeated by the US Army. If the name changes, perhaps we should look for a winner.

[redwing77]

Come to think of it, the Sioux were kicked out of the northern forests by the Chippewa, often had problems at the hands of the Pawnee and Blackfeet, got the credit for Little Big Horn while the Cheyenne did most of the fighting, and eventually were defeated by the US Army. If the name changes, perhaps we should look for a winner.

I'm not doubting Sioux-cia's post as it does explain why we use the name in very good detail.

But what you say is intriguing. I like the name of the Fighting Ojibwe, or maybe the Fighting Iroquois (even though the Iroquois aren't from around here).

However, one thing that many people are starting to lose perspective on is that it isn't the Native Americans UND is fighting. It's the NCAA. Whether or not Brand or Harrison hold the hostile and abusive opinion or not is one thing, but they are abusing their power to dictate their own personal agendas. They are illegally modifying the NCAA bylaws to suit their own beliefs and that's descriminatory. THAT is what we are fighting. This has nothing to do with the Native Americans.

[Sioux-cia]

However, one thing that many people are starting to lose perspective on is that it isn't the Native Americans UND is fighting. It's the NCAA. Whether or not Brand or Harrison hold the hostile and abusive opinion or not is one thing, but they are abusing their power to dictate their own personal agendas. They are illegally modifying the NCAA bylaws to suit their own beliefs and that's descriminatory. THAT is what we are fighting. This has nothing to do with the Native Americans.

Absolutely correct.

[Csonked Out]

This is a very interesting argument, because most people feel it's taboo to discuss. Why do we honor the Sioux? I have my own personal feelings just like everyone else, and find myself torn. On the one hand not only the sioux, but the native americans in genaral are a people, that no where they came from, they have very deep ties to their heritage, and it is in my eyes the most important thing to them, this is what we are honoring here at UND, the courage, the honor, the knowledge of the ancestors, and the drive their ancestors had to pass that knowledge along, no matter what anyone else thinks, this is still evident today, in that many Native Americans still pick names just like there ancestors do.

If these people that we are honoring don't view it as an honor, and find it offensive then i would be willing to drop the fighting, from the fighting sioux, and sioux if that improves things. What I personally dont like is that the majority of the people that are speaking against the name are caucasion, and have absolutely no roots to the sioux or native americans. That is not their heritage, so how could it possibly be offensive to them? That is a question that I have yet to see anyone answer. I love the name but I am willing to change if the majority of the Sioux people don't approve, but if the majority do, but the people that dont like it are caucasion, like myself, they have no business being offended, and bottom line THE SIOUX PEOPLES VIEWS ARE THE ONES THAT SHOULD BE OK WITH THE NAME, EVERYONE ELSE MAY HAVE AN OPINION LIKE MYSELF, BUT HOW CAN SOMEONE WITH NO TIES TO THE HERITAGE BE OFFENDED?

The reason I am no torn is because i was almost engaged to someone who was native american, so i was close with her family, and some of the stuff i hear just appauled me. I heard many things about some of the problems the people are having, and they just laughed at it, saying things iwll never change so why try and what not. A lot of the problems need to be dealt with and with the programs offered UND is at the forfront on trying to help. All of this being said, it is these things the general public sees, and in today's society there is still discrimination , and when a university offers scholarships, programs, free tuition, along with many other options, this is something that should show that we understand where the name comes from , that it is aprreciated, and that is honeored at this university.

[poopski]

i totally agree with larsensa. i am from minnesota and im used to seeing indians get a whole heap of stuff no one else gets. you can pull the card, yeah we owe all of this to them, but we dont. england had to expand and we came over here for the land, its just taking over a country. yeah we took it from them and gave them nothing but little indian reservations. but we could have gave them nothing.

now today were sitting here seeing indians get special rights for college, sporting/fishing, and thdy usually arent even goverened under state law..at least not in minnesota. you cant tell me this special treatment is warranted just because we took over their land. you dont see countries that took over neighboring countries giving away money, schooling and special benefits to their former enemies.

we fought for this land, and so did they..they lost. they need get over it and get on with their lives instead of pissing away everything theyve been given with alcohol and/or drugs. it seems to me the only thing i ever hear about native people is, i want, i need, i cant. if they change their damn attitudes, get some motivation to be somebody and try to live the best they can, maybe, just maybe they can actually become a productive race.

you can call me racist, call me whatever, but its not going to change my mind about this issue. i along with several other seriously think the special benefits should be stopped and equality for all races be granted.

ok im done now..sorry if i offended anyone as im sure i did, but something needs to change.

[Sioux-cia]

I am offended by your post. I believe the views expressed are expressed by persons who are racists and are often used by some as a reason to hate another group of human beings. Sorry if I offended you but that's my opinion and no one is going to change it. I would never presume to change your mind on this or any other issue.

As a person of Mexican-American descent, I've personally been a target for similar views, generalized to fit an entire ethic group, etc., etc., blah, blah, blah,....

When I first responded to the question, I had no idea that this thread was going to turn into an Indian hate fest!! Please someone close this thread!!!

[redwing77]

I am offended by your post. I believe the views expressed are expressed by persons who are rasicsts and are often used by some as a reason to hate another group of human beings. Sorry if I offended you but that's my opinion and no one is going to change it. I would never presume to change your mind on this or any other issue.

As a person of Mexican-American descent, I've personally been a target for similar views, generalized to fit an entire ethic group, etc., etc., blah, blah, blah,....

When I first responded to the question, I had no idea that this thread was going to turn into an Indian hate fest!! Please someone close this thread!!!

I agree. Close this thread.

But, Sioux-cia, I tried to be an optimist and think that it wouldn't go there. It did. You see? Optimism sucks.

[Sioux-cia]

But, Sioux-cia, I tried to be an optimist and think that it wouldn't go there. It did. You see? Optimism sucks.

OK, I'll give you this one. There's just no accounting for some people's children.

[larsensa]

i totally agree with larsensa. i am from minnesota and im used to seeing indians get a whole heap of stuff no one else gets. you can pull the card, yeah we owe all of this to them, but we dont. england had to expand and we came over here for the land, its just taking over a country. yeah we took it from them and gave them nothing but little indian reservations. but we could have gave them nothing.

now today were sitting here seeing indians get special rights for college, sporting/fishing, and thdy usually arent even goverened under state law..at least not in minnesota. you cant tell me this special treatment is warranted just because we took over their land. you dont see countries that took over neighboring countries giving away money, schooling and special benefits to their former enemies.

we fought for this land, and so did they..they lost. they need get over it and get on with their lives instead of pissing away everything theyve been given with alcohol and/or drugs. it seems to me the only thing i ever hear about native people is, i want, i need, i cant. if they change their damn attitudes, get some motivation to be somebody and try to live the best they can, maybe, just maybe they can actually become a productive race.

you can call me racist, call me whatever, but its not going to change my mind about this issue. i along with several other seriously think the special benefits should be stopped and equality for all races be granted.

ok im done now..sorry if i offended anyone as im sure i did, but something needs to change.

Poopski, I am not sure what you are agreeing with in my post. The things you said do not relate to what my intent was when I started this thread. The thread is not based on hatred towards Native Americans, in this case, the Sioux specifically. I am only saying that it doesn't seem like the Sioux find honor in having UND use the Sioux name. If they don't, why do we want to use it? If they found honor in the name, UND wouldn't have to kiss butt to keep it. I am not saying this is the Sioux nation's fault, it is a pretty normal thing universities, companies, and the government end up doing when they want something. But if that is what it takes for UND I think it takes a lot of the fun out of us having the name.

I am sad that we may have to give up the Sioux name because the NCAA made this decision. I love having the Fighting Sioux name and logo and think it is one of the best in all of sports. I am having a hard time imaging the National Anthem being sung without home of the Sioux at the end and all of the other cheers. I wish the Sioux tribes found honor in us using it and don't understand why they don't? Maybe it will end up being a case of Don't know what you got till it's gone for the Sioux nation?

Losing the opportunity to host events like the NCAA regionals, finals, etc... are too valuable to the city of Grand Forks and the university. It is also valuable for us to be able to show off our school pride with our logo at NCAA events and we won't be able to do that anymore either if things stand. I don't think we should give up those opportunities for a name if it comes to that. Especially if the tribe we are trying to honor doesn't find honor in it. It is kinda like doing something for someone who doesn't appreciate it and hoping that one day they will end up liking you. In the end, it gets old and the one or group doing the giving ends up getting hurt. In this case, UND has been hurt!

[PCM]

I think it's a mistake to believe that all or even most Sioux people aren't honored by UND's use of the Fighting Sioux nickname. Events of the past week show that this isn't true. That attitude is insulting to many fine American Indians who have stuck by UND throughout this controversy.

In any event, I think it's a waste of time to debate whether or not someone does or should feel honored. Those conferring the honor certainly know and understand their intent. They know what's in their hearts and minds. Just because some people say that they're not honored by the gesture in no way changes the intent.

For example, an actor who receives an Academy Award may have some reason for not accepting the award and might even proclaim that he's not honored by it. That in no way changes the meaning or intent of the award. Nor does it change the motivation of those who chose to bestow the honor on the actor.

In other words, I have no more business telling a member of a Sioux tribe that he or she should be honored than the tribal member has in telling me that my intent was to insult or demean American Indians. I can't force someone to feel honored. An unwillingess to accpet the honor does not change the intention of the giver.

The issue for me has nothing to do with who is or is not honored. It's deciding whether or not I want a false, wrongfully created preception of my community and my employer to be seen as the truth by the outside world. This blog further explains why I think it's a battle worth fighting.

I'm not into vindictiveness, revenge or retribution if I don't get my way. It saddens me to see that some Sioux fans are.

[larsensa]

I think it's a mistake to believe that all or even most Sioux people aren't honored by UND's use of the Fighting Sioux nickname. Events of the past week show that this isn't true. That attitude is insulting to many fine American Indians who have stuck by UND throughout this controversy.

In any event, I think it's a waste of time to debate whether or not someone does or should feel honored. Those conferring the honor certainly know and understand their intent. They know what's in their hearts and minds. Just because some people say that they're not honored by the gesture in no way changes the intent.

For example, an actor who receives an Academy Award may have some reason for not accepting the award and might even proclaim that he's not honored by it. That in no way changes the meaning or intent of the award. Nor does it change the motivation of those who chose to bestow the honor on the actor.

In other words, I have no more business telling a member of a Sioux tribe that he or she should be honored than the tribal member has in telling me that my intent was to insult or demean American Indians. I can't force someone to feel honored. An unwillingess to accpet the honor does not change the intention of the giver.

The issue for me has nothing to do with who is or is not honored. It's deciding whether or not I want a false, wrongfully created preception of my community and my employer to be seen as the truth by the outside world. This blog further explains why I think it's a battle worth fighting.

I'm not into vindictiveness, revenge or retribution if I don't get my way. It saddens me to see that some Sioux fans are.

Interesting post PCM. I also liked what you said in the article you wrote on the blog. I need to go back and read the original reason UND chose the Sioux name. I haven't read about the history of the name in a long time. I hope in the end we may end up being able to keep the name but I am not sure what amount of time and money UND should continue to spend to do so? Maybe UND should've followed GF School's lead and changed the name when the Redskins and other teams decided to change theirs in the 90's?

My original post was not meant to imply that UND should drop all the programs it is offering Native Americans in case people took what I said to mean that. I just think UND needs to be careful that their heart is in the right place when they offer the programs in the first place and that they are not using them as a bribe to keep the name because if that is the case, it isn't paying off.

It will be interesting to see how the Sioux nation responds to the NCAA's decision and how it may impact the vote they have this week or any other time they vote.

[siouxfan5]

Myles sucks and all the other people do to. I just dont get it, why cant it be like the olden days when no one cared for it they just went a long with it. This doesnt happen in the Nhl like the blackhawks, and thats worse then sioux.

THE ULTIMATE SIOUX SITE, next to the better ones.

www.-FiGhTiNg-SiOuX-rOcK-.piczo.com

[tnt]

I am offended by your post. I believe the views expressed are expressed by persons who are rasicsts and are often used by some as a reason to hate another group of human beings. Sorry if I offended you but that's my opinion and no one is going to change it. I would never presume to change your mind on this or any other issue.

As a person of Mexican-American descent, I've personally been a target for similar views, generalized to fit an entire ethic group, etc., etc., blah, blah, blah,....

When I first responded to the question, I had no idea that this thread was going to turn into an Indian hate fest!! Please someone close this thread!!!

Seems to me you are doing exactly what the NCAA is doing, making yourself judge and jury as to a person being racist just like the NCAA is doing so considering the University hostile and abusive. You can have the opinion that the past is just that, the past, and we are living in this country as Americans--period. Entitlements only keep us divided. I tend to believe in the phrase "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." I don't recall in that Inaugural speech, "Unless you are a group that has been wronged in the past." Hope this doesn't make me racist.

[PCM]

I need to go back and read the original reason UND chose the Sioux name.

Where does that get you? There were a variety of reasons cited for selecting the Fighting Sioux nickname at the time. Depending on which side of the issue people are on, they put more weight on one reason than another. That debate, in my opinion, is also a waste of time because there's no way to determine the intentions and motivation of the people who made the decision. They also operated under different values that have changed and evolved over time.