State legislature attempts to block D-I money

[jimdahl]

The State Board of Higher Ed has come out against an ND legislature bill that would block ND Universities from using general fund or student fee money to pay for D-I athletics.

http://www.kxmc.com/news/local.asp?ID=1645

I'm kind of torn on this one. I like SD's stance that moving to D-I athletics should be self-funding, but isn't the point of student fees to provide support for student organizations and activities for students?

[tony]

What a bunch of crap! Why the hell are your torn on this issue? You should be ashamed that UND's supporters in the legislature are being such blatant weasels.

Let me get this straight - in ND, it's OK to subsidize JUCO, NAIA, or NCAA DII sports but not DI? Maybe NDSU should just do what UND did for so many years - just take money, not from the general fund or student activity fees, but from other budget items and funnel it into the athletic department without telling anybody.

For God's sake what do they put in the water up in Grand Forks that makes you think that this is even remotely acceptable behavior? I'll just add this one to the big pile of frigging garbage that NDSU has had to put up with from the puling babies who try to protect UND from any competition.

[star2city]

For God's sake what do they put in the water up in Grand Forks that makes you think that this is even remotely acceptable behavior?

Tony, Tony, Tony:

HB1356 - Bars the Board of Higher Education and North Dakota's 11 public colleges from spending student fees or tax dollars for anything "related to an institution's designation" as an NCAA Division I school. The bill is aimed at North Dakota State University, which is seeking to move from Division II to Division I. Sponsored by Rep. Rod Froelich, D-Selfridge.

Have you ever considered that NDSU's Div I decision is not at all popular with rural North Dakotans, especially in the western half of the state?

Is it possible that legislators want their say in decisions made by employees of the state, including your dear President Chapman? If you have a problem with this bill (which many do), go complain to your 20-odd member Cass County legislative group. And relax, they've got the power to take care of it for you. The vast Sioux conspiracy against NDSU's Div I move is centered in Sioux County, not Grand Forks County. Why should any Sioux fan conspire against a move by NDSU's athletic program that will result in the Thundering Herd tumbling down a cliff?

[DamStrait]

What a bunch of crap! Why the hell are your torn on this issue? You should be ashamed that UND's supporters in the legislature are being such blatant weasels.

Let me get this straight - in ND, it's OK to subsidize JUCO, NAIA, or NCAA DII sports but not DI? Maybe NDSU should just do what UND did for so many years - just take money, not from the general fund or student activity fees, but from other budget items and funnel it into the athletic department without telling anybody.

For God's sake what do they put in the water up in Grand Forks that makes you think that this is even remotely acceptable behavior? I'll just add this one to the big pile of frigging garbage that NDSU has had to put up with from the puling babies who try to protect UND from any competition.

Gee, Tony, who sounds like a baby here?

BTW, I'm pretty sure Jim doesn't reside in Grand Forks.

And Tony, I'm sure you were up in arms when the legislature insisted that the new REA be self supporting. Who do you think was behind that? Could it be blatant weasel NDSU supporters in the legislature? People that live in glass barns shouldn't throw stones.

SD set the precedent. Chapman and Taylor should have been on the ball to prevent the same thing happening in ND. Looks like they dropped the ball on this one. Why don't you go and spew some of your venom at them?

When will the 'SU crowd be honest with themselves and everyone else and admit what the move to D1 is all about? In case you're too close to the situation to figure it out, I'll tell you. GF built the Alerus, which while not as nice IMHO as FargoDome, it puts UND in the same neighborhood. Then Ralph built the new REA, killing 'SU's will to go D1 in hockey anytime in the near future. Then CC signed a contract to carry UND football, basketball, and hockey statewide. Then UND did the unthinkable by stealing 'SU's thunder by winning an NCAA football title. It was all too much for 'SU's supporters to bear, so they had to up the ante and go D1 across the board.

Truth is ND is not big enough to have two flagship schools, but that mistake was made over 100 years ago. ND should have decided to have only one like MN (one of the only rational government decisions ever made in that state), and especially like Wyoming.

If the 'SU crowd thinks there will be only one flagship in the state and that it will be 'SU, then they are crazy.

Tony, you're usually pretty rational, but this latest post of yours is waaaaay beneath you.

[jimdahl]

I believe we have one fundamental difference in understanding...

I interpreted the bill as saying no additional moneys generated through ND state tax dollars can be spent on athletic costs born solely because a sport is D-I (i.e. those moneys can't be used to pay the difference in cost between a sport existing and a sport being D-I). As others have pointed out, not only did the state of SD make the same decision, but most taxpayers who aren't fans of UND hockey or NDSU athletics would support such a decision (plenty of reasonable people).

However, I think you're interpreting it as saying that tax-generated dollars that are spent on D-II sports can no longer be spent on that sport if it reclassifies as D-I. IF that's what the bill is saying, then I do agree with you (Tony) that it's a poor standard (though still understandable from rural districts which probably don't want any state dollars going to college athletics).

Personally, I find the bill to be vague and indefinite.

30475.0200

Fifty-eighth

Legislative Assembly HOUSE BILL NO. 1356

of North Dakota

Introduced by

Representatives Froelich, Wald

A BILL for an Act relating to the use of funds on behalf of division I designation within the

national collegiate athletic association.

BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF NORTH DAKOTA:

SECTION 1. National collegiate athletic association - Division I member

institutions - Use of funds. The state board of higher education and the institutions under the

control of the board may not use either state general fund moneys or moneys generated

through student fees for any expenditure for any activity directly or indirectly related to an

institution's designation as a division I member institution within the national collegiate athletic

association.

[star2city]

This is kind of cool:

Background for Rep. Rod Froelich, D-Selfridge, Sponsor of House Bill No. 1356:

Ranching. Bismarck Junior College. North Dakota State University.National Guard 6 years. County commissioner 1994-98. North Dakota local brand inspection. North Dakota Stockmen's Association. American Legion. Past member of Knights of Columbus. Elks. Married. 4 children. Wife's name Kathryn. House since 1999.

[choyt3]

This is kind of cool:

Background for Rep. Rod Froelich, D-Selfridge, Sponsor of House Bill No. 1356:

Ranching. Bismarck Junior College. North Dakota State University.National Guard 6 years. County commissioner 1994-98. North Dakota local brand inspection. North Dakota Stockmen's Association. American Legion. Past member of Knights of Columbus. Elks. Married. 4 children. Wife's name Kathryn. House since 1999.

Yeah, well, he's still a UND fan. Has to be, right Tony?

[tony]

I can't believe you missed my point. I'm not irate about the bill because it's not going to pass. I was outraged that Jim actually thought there was a question whether it was wrong to pass legislation written as a "screw you" to NDSU. Nor could I believe that if he thinks DI should be self-sufficient, that JUCO, NAIA, and DII athletics are worth subsidizing.

Now it turns out that DamStrait and Star2City seem to think that the legislation is OK. Jim was bad enough - you guys are truly shocking. Maybe I was so harsh that you took the opposite position just because I made you angry. What I was trying to give Jim was the written equivalent of a slap on the back of the head you give to a friend who has done something really stupid.

[tony]

Ah, come on guys. You think that the is guy who introduces legislation is always the guy who came up with the idea? People in government do whatever is politically expedient - and if having somebody impartial introduce a bill is better, they ask that person to do it. It's who enters the debate in favor of the bill that tells you where the support for it lies. I'm not saying that this is what happened but it has been how things have been done in the past.

That wasn't my point though. You guys represent UND for me and you are not doing a very good job. You guys are UND fans and I base my judgements somewhat on your so-easy-to-predict responses. With the happy exception of Jim, you can't seem to tell the difference between right and wrong, or ferret out (or should I say weasel out ) what the gist of my posts have been.

And by the way, I am from western ND and I'm not aware that many people are pissed off about NDSU's move (as if that would justify this bill). Most people I've talked to are excited about playing Montana schools again and there are a LOT more NDSU grads out west than UND grads.

[jimdahl]

You guys represent UND for me and you are not doing a very good job.

By that standard does JBB represent NDSU? I definitely don't represent UND (just ask anyone in the athletics media relations office!)

In our defense, it looks to me like everyone was interpreting the bill the way I was, whereas you were interpreting it quite differently. Taking money away from a school's athletics programs as punishment for going D-I (your interpretation) is far different from refusing to help fund such a move (our interpretation). Like I said above, if my interpretation is wrong, I'll be the first to flip-flop.

[star2city]

Now it turns out that DamStrait and Star2City seem to think that the legislation is OK. Jim was bad enough - you guys are truly shocking.

Is NDSU a private institution? What

[tony]

star2city, I don't believe you sometimes. NDSU's student activity fees do not come out of the state budget and if they were to go for DI expenses, the state would have no exposure so NO they have no business getting involved in this way. And btw, if UND wins both BB games, good for them.

Jim, if it is against the state's interests to subsidize a move to DI, shouldn't it be wrong to subsidize staying in DII, NAIA, or some JUCO league? I don't understand the thinking behind the bill at all. If they want to vote on whether a ND university can ever go DI, that would be one thing - but it would have made a heck of lot more sense to do it sometime in the last twenty years rather than waiting until NDSU made a decision and then voting. That's a failure of leadership all right ( to use star2city's words) but it's not Chapman's. It's not like the state of ND didn't have more than 20 years of warning that NDSU was thinking of leaving DII.

Anyway, how many NDSU fans sound like JBB? A LOT of UND fans on this board sound like star2city - a guy who seems to burp bile anytime NDSU is mentioned. Or like DamStrait who seems to think that North Dakota would be better off if NDSU wasn't as competitive as it is with UND? Or like Ed Schultz who doesn't think at all but sure yells a lot?

[DamStrait]

Nice troll, Tony, but I won't bite. You know fully well I have not rendered a thumbs up or down on the bill under discussion. I've also not suggested disappointment in 'SU being competitive with UND. Try accusing me of something that can be supported by my statements.

[tony]

DamStrait, granted the tone of my first post wasn't very sociable but it is not my intention to play the troll on this board. I think that UND people should understand where NDSU people like myself are coming from - that's why I bug you guys. Although there are lots of NDSU people more charming and good-natured than I, I don't see them trying to open up a dialog with the UND fans on this board.

As for misrepresentinn you, did I misunderstand you when you wrote, "Truth is ND is not big enough to have two flagship schools, but that mistake was made over 100 years ago?" I wrote that you were expressing the belief that "North Dakota would be better off if NDSU wasn't as competitive as it is with UND." Now, how am I misrepresenting you again? Didn't I go far enough? Did you mean that North Dakota would be better off without NDSU? The welfare of Grand Forks and UND may be one in the same but the welfare of UND and North Dakota are not.

[elmduf]

In the infinite wisdom of the cowpoke, Wyoming has a ban on any four-year state funded school outside of the U of Wyoming in good old Laramie. The limited 4-year satellite programs around the state come from Laramie. I don't disagree with the statement about the U of Minnesota being the only flagship school in that state...but Wyoming went a little extreme.

North Dakota ACTUALLY has a higher education system within the state, an exceptional one for the size of the state. The U of Wyoming is not considered a very good school in this region. (I live a mere 90 miles from Laramie in Northern Colorado.) The sad thing is, in Wyoming, the pokes are the only game in the state.

[DamStrait]

Exactly, as I said, that decision was made over 100 years ago. There's no way 'SU or UND will relegate the other to some status below flagship at this point. That being the case, they may as well be competitive.

[tony]

DS, you said that it was a mistake to have two flagship institutions. So you don't mind that NDSU is competitive, but if you had your way you would rectify this mistake by doing what? And why would this have been better for North Dakota?

[JBB]

unedd has been trying to eliminate NDSU since day one. The biggest assault was by Gov. Langer in the late 30's. He actually got NDSU ("The old AC") discredited for a year. If it wasn't for the "Gang of 13" students that traveled the state garnering political support for reaccreditation "The old AC" would have gone by the wayside and there would be no NDSU.

Then came the name change from AC to NDSU. uendd had no stomach for another university and fought tooth and nail to stop it, forgetting that a university is so named because of the doctorate degrees. But ego has always ruled the roost up there no need to follow the national standard in classifying institutions of higher learning.

Then there was the most recent attempt to discredit and close the NDSU school of business. Cant have any CPAs coming out of NDSU when all professionals should come out of uendd.

Then there is the ongoing attempt to block funding for any and all NDSU building requests.

Then there was the most recent and ongoing diatribe against Decision 1 that is clearly centered in Grand Forks and uendd.

Then there is ed schultz, your paid mouthpiece. But take a look at all yourselves. As soon as fast eddy had something less than complimentary to say about a hayseed move by the pope of hockey "Above Blame Blais" you all wanted to defrock him.

By the way the final score in the mens game was 64-57. That about closes the door on all the fame and fortune so many thought was an entitlment for your men

[gjacks]

JBB - Where did all the vitriol toward UND come from? Dating back to the 1930's, my God you hold on to these things longer than my wife remembers my transgressions. But could it be that Gov. Langer was farsighted and was attempting to derail the North Dakota penchant for "too much"? You seem to know the history, was he also attempting to eliminate some of the "normal schools" that have survived to the present in various forms? That NDSU survived is a tribute to the spirit of that institution, but hardly a proof of Gov. Langer being the architect of the "vast UND conspiracy" against NDSU.

Are we to re-call the doctorates issued from Colorado College and Boston College because they are not designated as universities? Come on now. The name change may have been a turf war but how did/does NDSU justify deviations their land grant status as "institutions to advance agriculture and mechanics" as stipulated in the Morrill Act?

Debates over spending and "attempts to block funding" are matters of perception - your perception seems rather myopic and distorted by those yellow-tinted glasses you wear.

Decision I is made. No debate will change it so why concern yourself with what others may think about it? Dr. Chapman has chosen your path and you have chosen to loyally follow - I applaud both of you for that and you shouldn't think that you have to justify your decision to me or anyone else on this forum, in the state, or in the nation. We just want to be assured that you will not be asking for a priori treatment because of that status IF the promises on which the decision was made are not fulfilled.

As for the Eddy/Dean debate, if Eddy actually said that he hoped for the Gophers to win - he should be replaced. That is not the sort of thing a person who claims to be a "voice of the Sioux" should say in a public forum. The rest of it is a p---ing match and I don't really care who wins.

Congratulations to the Bison for a hard-fought and bloody win. Maybe this will be the momentum swing they need to carry them through to Division I. To rise from the ashes of 3-3 to the glory of Division I. One would think that they should have wrapped up the title by now with that kind of status on their side.

[NDSU grad]

The name change may have been a turf war but how did/does NDSU justify deviations their land grant status as "institutions to advance agriculture and mechanics" as stipulated in the Morrill Act?

NDSU is not "deviating" from their status as a land grant institution at all. It's convenient how you left out the part of the Morrill Act that says "without excluding other scientific and classical studies". The goal of the Morrill Act was never to train people to be farmers, but rather to provide a network of trained scientists from research personnel to extension, with the goal of using the latest scientific innovations in the field of agriculture (and other disciplines). I apologize for the history lesson, but sometimes I really get sick of the "cow college" crap. Other "cow colleges" include Rutgers, Cornell, and Purdue.

[star2city]

Attention NDSU trollers:

The Great UND/Grand Forks Conspiracy against NDSU continues?

Herald Editorial: Let NDSU decide on Division I

NDSU's upward reach is ambitious and may not work. But then again, it might work smashingly, and lift the school's athletic and academic reputations alike.

And that, of course, would be good for the state.

The Division I idea has sparked a fine debate and inspired UND to think critically and creatively about its own plans

I agree with the above quote from the Herald. As has been stated many times here, the risk is way too high for UND without a conference affiliation in hand.

[The Sicatoka]

Get it right 'star2city' or we'll take your membership card away. It's

The Vast Fighting Sioux Conspiracy

[WYOBISONMAN]

My two cents....HB1356 is totally stupid. I am originally from Williston and get home frequently. Most of the people I know in the WEST of North Dakota are excited about NDSU's move to D1 and the possibility of rivalries with Montana and Montana State.

As to the editorial in the GF Herald today....I am gld to see the Herald take the stand. On this one I agree with them. And I do hope UND continues to evaluate whether or not to stay D2.

[JBB]

I dont think reciting the history of UND's campaign against the NDSU is vitriol on my part in the least. It is the history and it isn't very becoming toward UND. NDSU has had to fight you all the way. The real question should by why is UND so vitriol against NDSU?

Here is something for all the knowing and unknowing members of the vast conspiracy etc etc:

This was posted on another board. It regards house bill #1346.

[teamsioux]

Yep, you caught us, we dang there shot ourselves! Gol dangit anyway, us ol' hayseeds outsmarted ourselves again!!