Lacrosse at a "DI" UND?

[The Sicatoka]

Look at George Mason for example ...

I do and that's why, if there are subsidized teams, I want teams that can be championship-calibre successful: Good press, and people like to associate with winners.

[dlsiouxfan]

Agreed

[siouxrunner]

One thing I won't argue about is that money matters. That is one point we completely see eye-to-eye on.

But, I feel that some of the funding for non-revenue sports is well spent. Being on an athletic team in college is a great way to learn communication skills, teamwork, leadership, creativity, develop a good work ethic, perseverance against adversity, networking, tenacity, etc., etc. College athletes go on to be leaders in their workplace after school, and can apply many of their experiences from the field/court/ice to their work environment as a professional.

I'm sure you'll agree with me that these skills can be just as important in the world today as skills learned in a laboratory setting.

The things learned on a competitive team at UND can't be taught in a classroom. Non-revenue sports may need funding where the big sports may not, but without funding many students wouldn't have a chance to develop those skills. That is why it is important to have them around.

The primary mission of a University may be academics, but athletics are an integral part of the well being of the school. They add a venue for people to associate with the school, and they give the University another arena in which they can teach students.

[supersioux]

And 'runner', one more thing:

I'm a guy who believes that if college athletics can't support themselves at the gate or through donations they shouldn't be there. I'm not always a popular guy for that belief, and I also know that's not the world we live in.

I look here and see all of the dollars in state and university monies and student fees diverted to fund athletics and I wonder if they couldn't be used for better things within the university structure: labs, instructors, research, more scholarships for the total student body. The primary mission of a university still is academics.

If subsidized athletics is going to be there, yes, I will try to lobby for competitive teams that may also approach fiscal self-sufficiency. If that's a problem we must agree to disagree.

I'm just curious what sports at UND support themselves "at the gate or through donations"? My guess is that would maybe be one (Men's Hockey).

[star2city]

Personally, I think that the "footnote" sports are what makes UND sports so great. They may not win as many championships or make all the money, but they are competing and representing their school just as proudly as the "bigger" teams do, without the fan support. They provide some diversity within the athletic department. I was a two (three, if you count indoor and outdoor track separately, which the NC$$ does) sport athlete for four years, competing in XC and T&F. I had many great experiences and met a lot of great people. As a "footnote" athlete, it hurts to see this attitude toward non-revenue sports year after year.

But hey, at least we would have some room for another "sweet spot," since the rest of the cabinet will have been cleared out.

Siouxrunner,

I can agree to a point that the

[The Sicatoka]

Non-revenue sports may need funding where the big sports may not, but without funding many students wouldn't have a chance to develop those skills. That is why it is important to have them around.

I won't disagree. What I'd like from the non-revenue (or call them subsidized) sports sponsored is the most "bang" possible, namely highly visible success. (See above.)

[dlsiouxfan]

I'm just curious what sports at UND support themselves "at the gate or through donations"? My guess is that would maybe be one (Men's Hockey).

Women's basketball was in the black and football has been in the past, but due to a very poor deal with the Alerus Center came up red this year.

[The Sicatoka]

I'm just curious what sports at UND support themselves "at the gate or through donations"? My guess is that would maybe be one (Men's Hockey).

2004 EADA data from US Dept. of Education says you are correct with mens hockey, and it also says WBB came in in the black. No others. That's how the data is reported to EADA on their form. Some other accounting scheme may or may not agree.

[The Sicatoka]

But, how do you explain to the Baseball Alumni that their sport (one of the oldest here at UND) is being cut so that a new, emerging, and more hip sport can be added?

It ain't easy, but there is precedent from other schools (with longer histories):

What really made Denver lacrosse possible at the D-I level was dropping baseball in 1999, where climate was always an issue, and Denver could not consistently compete at a high level. It was an emotional cut, since Denver had a baseball team since 1867.

"Puck Swami" is a DU fan that know's DU's programs inside and out.

If DU has "climate" issues regarding baseball, what do we have in North Dakota?

[The Sicatoka]

There's a thread on USCHO ( http://board.uscho.com/showthread.php?t=57855 ) about DI hockey players playing other sports at school.

The crossover just this year alone between hockey and lacrosse is startling.

TJ Fast at Denver

Fogarty at Holy Cross (Go Crusaders!)

Carisio at Merrimack

Boardman at Dartmouth (?)

Lovejoy at Dartmouth (?)

Karwoski at Yale

[The Sicatoka]

Folks, it's out there. It's coming.

The Swarm doesn't want to take over the world, or even the local scene. But the organization does think it's reasonable to carve out a niche -- something the 10,000-plus announced attendance at the team's most recent home game would indicate is plausible.

Like their Swarm teammates, Kemp and Pollock are from Canada, where lacrosse season and hockey season blend into a 12-month cycle.

"We're die-hard hockey players in the winter," Pollock said. "Then the ice comes out and we switch to lacrosse. ..."

In Minnesota, there are more options. Even so, interest in the sport is growing. A decade ago, there were just a handful of boys' high school teams. This year, according to Swarm figures, there are 48 boys' varsity teams and optimism -- aided by a petition circulating at Swarm games -- that it will soon join girls' lacrosse as a sanctioned Minnesota State High School League sport.

The Swarm is in its second season in the National Lacrosse League, the sport's major indoor pro league. The team has about 2,500 season ticket holders and a fan club -- the Hive -- for local die-hards.

http://www.startribune.com/503/story/351268.html

Carve out a niche; find a sweet spot.

[UND92,96]

There's a thread on USCHO ( http://board.uscho.com/showthread.php?t=57855 ) about DI hockey players playing other sports at school.

The crossover just this year alone between hockey and lacrosse is startling.

TJ Fast at Denver

Fogarty at Holy Cross (Go Crusaders!)

Carisio at Merrimack

Boardman at Dartmouth (?)

Lovejoy at Dartmouth (?)

Karwoski at Yale

He's not a hockey player, but UND already has at least one pretty good lacrosse player on campus: link.

[star2city]

Folks, it's out there. It's coming.

If the Swarm can average 10,000 + in attendance in the Cities, thought it might be interesting to project LAX attendance at UND.

Event ......TC Attend....UND Att.....%

Gopher Baseball 891 261 29

Gopher Volleyball 3782 335 9

Gopher W Hockey 1306 443 34

Gopher M Hockey 10088 10870 108

Gopher Football 49025 9425 19

Gopher MBasketball 12228 2791 23

Gopher WBasketball 9703 2387 25

Minnesota Vikings 64121 9425 15

Minnesota Lynx 6673 2387 36

Minnesota Twolves 17181 2791 16

Minnesota Wild 18531 10870 59

Relative to the attendance of U of M or TC professional teams, UND's ability to draw attendance seems to be somewhat proportional. Excluding the lagard, volleyball, and the leader, hockey, all UND sports teams seem to draw between 15-36 % of what Gopher or Twin Cities professional teams draw, for an average of about 25%.

If the Swarm lacrosse team can average 10,000 fans, it would seem reasaonable to project a UND men's lacrosse team could draw an average of 2500 to the Alerus.

[The Sicatoka]

Folks, it's out there. It's coming.

http://www.startribune.com/503/story/351268.html

Second season and 2500 season ticket holders. Looks to me like lacrosse works where there are hockey fans and a facility.

Another thought:

Using the "25%" figure from star2city and those 2500 Swarm season tickets, that'd give an estimated and scaled 600 season ticket holders for UND lacrosse in season two. Those 600 season tickets would immediately give a higher average lax attendance than UND baseball, volleyball, or womens hockey.

[The Sicatoka]

If the Swarm can average 10,000 + in attendance in the Cities, thought it might be interesting to project LAX attendance at UND.

Event ......TC Attend....UND Att.....%

Gopher MBasketball 12228 2791 23

Gopher WBasketball 9703 2387 25

If the Swarm lacrosse team can average 10,000 fans, it would seem reasaonable to project a UND men's lacrosse team could draw an average of 2500 to the Alerus.

Womens* or mens** basketball offers roughly the same number of scholarships as mens lacrosse (12.6).

Nobody questions running a basketball program with that attendance.

* DI max 15, DII max 10.

** DI max 13, DII max 10.

[MplsBison]

UMass has both Men's and Women's Lacrosse.

Of course, they also have every other sport you can imagine. Except Volleyball for some reason.

[star2city]

Second season and 2500 season ticket holders. Looks to me like lacrosse works where there are hockey fans and a facility.

Another thought:

Using the "25%" figure from star2city and those 2500 Swarm season tickets, that'd give an estimated and scaled 600 season ticket holders for UND lacrosse in season two. Those 600 season tickets would immediately give a higher average lax attendance than UND baseball, volleyball, or womens hockey.

With the Alerus Commission looking hard for new events, one would think a UND men's lax team would have the potential for a win-win-win situation for the Alerus / UND athletics / Greater GF community.

When UND announces DI, a baseball/softball complex becomes a must have if the sports are continued to be offered. Unless a Northern League team is located in GF, a baseball stadium would be hard to finance and create further stress on the Alerus' situation, by drawing summertime events that might otherwise be at the Alerus. UND should use available facilities (Alerus in the Springtime) for everyone's benefit.

Leave any baseball sweet spot for NDSU and wish them well in the sport; they are much better positioned for it.

[wsuwarrior]

Just gonna pop in and say I'd love to see UND get a lacrosse team.

I used to live in Columbus Ohio, where my local high school had a team. I really started to love the sport there. Since I moved up to Minnesota, I was stuck with out a team until the Swarm came to the cities. This season the average attendance will finish at about 8k a game. There are a few reasons to this: 1) The Wild came back so people with nothing better to do with their sports dollars went back to the Wild. 2) Dates became harder.

In indoor lacrosse, the average fan is in their 20's, much younger than the average age of an NHL fan (or at least game-attender). I don't have the exact stats, but I believe it's higher for outdoor lacrosse.

There is definitely a cross over between lacrosse and hockey fan bases, but it's not exact. But it's close enough to be significant.

Adding lacrosse would give spring dates to the Alerus. And has it has been mentioned, being close to Canada could be big for the team.

Speaking purely as a fan of the sport, I hope you add lacrosse.

[siouxrunner]

Anyone else think it would be a good idea for the Alerus to try to get a Swarm exhibition game up here? They could introduce the sport to people who haven't seen it before and get an early idea of the level of interest in the area.

[The Sicatoka]

Anyone else think it would be a good idea for the Alerus to try to get a Swarm exhibition game up here?

Yup. And nope.

Yup to expose lacrosse. Nope because the Swarm play "box lacrosse" (indoor in a hockey rink) and the NCAA plays "field lacrosse" (on a football/soccer sized field).

Overall the "yup" still wins in my mind however.

[MplsBison]

What about having them come up to the Ralph, then?

[The Sicatoka]

What about having them come up to the Ralph, then?

I'd put that under the same "yup."

The NCAA plays field lacrosse, but just the same I've wondered what the big room with curved corners in the new UND Campus Wellness Center is for. (See room called "Multi Activity Court" in link.) The goals (ends) look almost more like indoor soccer.

[star2city]

The following is a College Baseball RPI ranking by Conference. What is striking is the ranking of the Big 10: its ranking is on par with the three least respected southern conferences, the Atlantic Sun, the Big South, and the Southland. Every other exclusively northern-based conference is ranked lower than the Big 10. If all the money and facilities the Big Ten has at its disposal yields it baseball medicrity, why would it make sense for UND to even attempt DI baseball? The Big Sky schools seem to recognize this issue, as it is the only conference not sponsoring baseball (numerous other individual schools in the North don't sponsor it, like Wisconsin, the Big 12's Iowa State and Colorado, WAC's Idaho, Boise State, and Utah St, Mt West's Col St and Wyoming.)

Rank Conference Rating - Bold indicates northern conference

1 SEC 0.591

2 ACC 0.589

3 Big 12 0.577

4 Pac 10 0.571

5 C-USA 0.557

6 Big West 0.554

7 Sun Belt 0.529

8 WCC 0.528

9 WAC 0.526

10 Southern 0.521

11 Atlantic Sun 0.516

12 CAA 0.509

13 Big Ten 0.509

14 MVC 0.507

15 Big East 0.506

16 Big South 0.506

17 Southland 0.494

18 Mt West 0.494

19 MAC 0.473

20 Patriot 0.463

21 Indies 0.46

22 Atlantic 10 0.454

23 OVC 0.45

24 Horizon 0.444

25 MAAC 0.435

26 America East 0.433

27 Ivy 0.431

28 Mid-Continent 0.43

29 MEAC 0.418

30 NEC 0.41

31 SWAC 0.399

With the great facility NDSU has in Newman Field, they haven't been able to translate that into much DI success (#258 of 293 teams). Without a new baseball park and training complex, can't imagine how UND would do that much better.

Division I Overall

Rank Rating W L W L Team

258 0.412 2 26 3 27 North Dakota State

259 0.412 9 18 13 20 South Dakota State

UND needs a spring time spectator sport and sadly, baseball does not seem to be the answer without expensive facility additions, whereas lacrosse could be.

[Cratter]

Was behind Bek and Walsh Hall a few minutes ago, 4 young gentlemen playing catch with the crosse.

[USA Hockey]

In case anyone didn't know, there is a club/intramural lacrosse team now on campus. They just started this year and they play other schools. They play in the Upper Midwest Lacrosse League. This year I don't think they're an official member, but here is the league link if anyone wants to check it out, http://www.umll.org/