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[true sioux]

I've been hovering and watching this debate for some time.

The sentiments of those wanting to keep this logo and name are quite disheartening, and the tone I get from most messages here on this board is that the values and morals of the peoples from the Midwest are still very closed-minded, full of hatred, racism and bigotry towards those less fortunate or different than themselves.

Prove me wrong. Take an afternoon and pick up a copy of "The Journey of Crazy Horse" by Joseph M Marshall III, you'll get an insiders view of the Lakota Warrior perspective.

It may change how you look at this issue, it may not, but I feel that it will open your heart and mind to the nature of the people who lived on this land long before most of your ancestors stole, lied and killed to take it away from them. Show a little respect, try to understand those on the other side of the issue as much as you can, before making a decison based upon only your interpretation of events.

Thanks for taking the time to read this message, I hope that some of you will take the time now to do a little research of your own.

[Diggler]

It may change how you look at this issue, it may not, but I feel that it will open your heart and mind to the nature of the people who lived on this land long before most of your ancestors stole, lied and killed to take it away from them. Show a little respect, try to understand those on the other side of the issue as much as you can, before making a decison based upon only your interpretation of events.

This is the problem right here. You ask others to show respect, but right before that say that our ancestors stole land, lied and killed. You want your ancestors to be respected, but don't seem to think it is neccessary for ours to be respected. You may have a great point, but it is damaged but saying things like this.

[PCM]

The sentiments of those wanting to keep this logo and name are quite disheartening, and the tone I get from most messages here on this board is that the values and morals of the peoples from the Midwest are still very closed-minded, full of hatred, racism and bigotry towards those less fortunate or different than themselves.

Prove me wrong.

Ah, the old "I get a slap the racist label on you and you have to prove that you're not" trick. Where have I run into that before?

[Air Force One]

It may change how you look at this issue, it may not, but I feel that it will open your heart and mind to the nature of the people who lived on this land long before most of your ancestors stole, lied and killed to take it away from them. Show a little respect, try to understand those on the other side of the issue as much as you can, before making a decison based upon only your interpretation of events.

Again you know nothing about MY people. Respect and rascim seem to be one way streets here, name changers run me down with sterotypes and racist remarks and when I respond, I am labeled the closed minded, lying, murdering, cheating, stealing, racist.

[Flatland]

I've been hovering and watching this debate for some time.

The sentiments of those wanting to change the logo and name are quite disheartening, and the tone I get from most pro-name change messages here on this board is that the values and morals of the peoples from the Midwest/NCAA/anywhere are still very closed-minded, full of hatred, racism and bigotry towards those different than themselves.

Prove me wrong. Take an afternoon and read the appeals and rebuttal the UND has compiled. Then come back to this thread and tell us how the Sioux name is offensive. (Example: how does the name prevent native americans from moving up in the world when in fact the name is a catalyst to help many native americans succeed?)

It may change how you look at this issue, it may not, but I feel that it will open your heart and mind to the nature of the people who live here now and who also respect those who lived here before us. Show a little respect, try to understand those on the other side of the issue as much as you can, before making a decison based upon only your interpretation of events.

Thanks for taking the time to read this message, I hope that some of you will take the time now to do a little research of your own.

I had to edit those comments because this argument has been going on for a long time. ("You're a racist!"... "No, you're a racist.") It's really easy to invert the comments in something like this and make the argument for the other side. It appears that either someone is wrong, or there are a lot of ignorant people on both sides. Probably both, but I'm not wrong.

[ScottM]

the values and morals of the peoples from the Midwest are still very closed-minded, full of hatred, racism and bigotry towards those less fortunate or different than themselves.

Whoa! Looks like somebody's been channeling GK, or GK forgot his password.

[Sioux-cia]

...the tone I get from most messages here on this board is that the values and morals of the peoples from the Midwest are still very closed-minded, full of hatred, racism and bigotry towards those less fortunate or different than themselves.

If this is the tone that you derived from most of the messages here than you didn't read any except for GrahamKrackers, KnowtheFacts, and makos. Educate yourself before you start throwing out your own racist, bigoted and hatred filled messages and maybe you'll reverse your position on the name change issue.

[GrahamKracker]

I've been hovering and watching this debate for some time.

The sentiments of those wanting to change the logo and name are quite disheartening, and the tone I get from most pro-name change messages here on this board is that the values and morals of the peoples from the Midwest/NCAA/anywhere are still very closed-minded, full of hatred, racism and bigotry towards those different than themselves.

Prove me wrong. Take an afternoon and read the appeals and rebuttal the UND has compiled. Then come back to this thread and tell us how the Sioux name is offensive. (Example: how does the name prevent native americans from moving up in the world when in fact the name is a catalyst to help many native americans succeed?)

It may change how you look at this issue, it may not, but I feel that it will open your heart and mind to the nature of the people who live here now and who also respect those who lived here before us. Show a little respect, try to understand those on the other side of the issue as much as you can, before making a decison based upon only your interpretation of events.

Thanks for taking the time to read this message, I hope that some of you will take the time now to do a little research of your own.

I had to edit those comments because this argument has been going on for a long time. ("You're a racist!"... "No, you're a racist.") It's really easy to invert the comments in something like this and make the argument for the other side. It appears that either someone is wrong, or there are a lot of ignorant people on both sides. Probably both, but I'm not wrong.

The name a catalyst? you are 100% full of it. The name has absolutely NOTHING to do w/ my education here. The only thing I learned about the name is that NON-Sioux people think they are honoring you by wearing green wigs and forcing so called "honor" down your throats.

Go look in the brochures they use to entice Natives to come to this place. Go look in the Tribal College Journals. There is not ONE mention of FS BS anywhere.

As for asking others to step outside of their "bubble", good luck truesioux. Especially on this board. But you can't say it's a midwest thing, because I know many, many people from the midwest who are willing to learn from others. I would probably specify that level of ignorance to more this region/town.

Remember when the SI article came out about RALPHIE? Man that pissed people off, or when the NY Times article came out? Yeah, well now that I think about it, just about "every article pertaining to the FS BS" portrays ND in negative light........yeah, I can see why everyone is defensive.

It doesn't help that there isn't a single SIOUX TRIBE that is behind UND.

ps. If you don't have anything to say positive about the racist logo/nickname, "they" don't want to hear it, even if it is legitimate and the truth.

[Flatland]

The name a catalyst? you are 100% full of it. The name has absolutely NOTHING to do w/ my education here. The only thing I learned about the name is that NON-Sioux people think they are honoring you by wearing green wigs and forcing so called "honor" down your throats.

Go look in the brochures they use to entice Natives to come to this place. Go look in the Tribal College Journals. There is not ONE mention of FS BS anywhere.

As for asking others to step outside of their "bubble", good luck truesioux. Especially on this board. But you can't say it's a midwest thing, because I know many, many people from the midwest who are willing to learn from others. I would probably specify that level of ignorance to more this region/town.

Remember when the SI article came out about RALPHIE? Man that pissed people off, or when the NY Times article came out? Yeah, well now that I think about it, just about "every article pertaining to the FS BS" portrays ND in negative light........yeah, I can see why everyone is defensive.

It doesn't help that there isn't a single SIOUX TRIBE that is behind UND.

ps. If you don't have anything to say positive about the racist logo/nickname, "they" don't want to hear it, even if it is legitimate and the truth.

Hey guess what! The name had nothing to do with my education either. Strangely enough though the name does motivate UND to sponser many already mentioned programs. These programs do draw native americans to the school as I personally know a few so to say the name does not provide opportunities for at least some native americans is ignorant. Unfotunately, I had to get by on my brain. What a bummer, eh?

Also I don't know what you mean by posting about the Tribal College Journals. It looks like a good group, but seems completely unrelated to your point. Those are good schools founded by native american people, but I don't know why they would necessarily care about UND. The Fighting Sioux name seems a little out of their subject matter. (Apparently they have more important things to worry about.) As far as recruiting native american students, UND just has different opportunites to offer compared to these schools.

Actually, speaking of being defensive and changing the subject somewhat... How come whenever we discuss issues on the reservations all we hear about (or at least most of what I see) is blaming it on americans or the american government or whatever? There are obviously groups working to improve the reservation and you are probably helping, but the situation is not improving (I do have firsthand experience... I'm not just quoting someone else.) I've seen references to treaties and such, but it's obvious that the american civilization and culture has outgrown all that. That's likely why native american's were granted citizenship in the 40's. It was obvious that the treaties were not entirely maintainable. The US government wants people to take care of themselves. (and so would I).

[Goon]

ps. If you don't have anything to say positive about the racist logo/nickname, "they" don't want to hear it, even if it is legitimate and the truth.

Next we are going to hear how we/whites stole the land from the Natives and commited hateful acts against the Real Sioux people. Hey GK, all of our white ancesters are dead and none of mine lived in ND, we are not responsible for what they did back during the 1800's, nor should we be required to be responsible for them, none of us were alive during the 1860's if we were we would be really old.

None of us are responsivle for these acts. So stop tryin to link the two to a logo and how whites are still committing crimes against the native people. Some are a little too hyper sensitve. The UND logo is not racist or hostile and abusive. There aren't any tomahawk chops being done at UND sporting event. No one is wearing feather or war paint. Please stop trying to invent stuff that isn't happening at our arena.

[Goon]

Ah, the old "I get a slap the racist label on you and you have to prove that you're not" trick. Where have I run into that before?

Ding, Ding, Ding... Let me guess GK, I know: Know the Facts, John Hoff, Russell "I can't Act and I am a Criminal" Means...

[Goon]

It may change how you look at this issue, it may not, but I feel that it will open your heart and mind to the nature of the people who lived on this land long before most of your ancestors stole, lied and killed to take it away from them. Show a little respect, try to understand those on the other side of the issue as much as you can, before making a decison based upon only your interpretation of events.

Here lies the problem, I am not going to pay for my ancestors crimes. I wasn't here, and it isn't my fault.

[KnowtheFacts]

Here lies the problem, I am not going to pay for my ancestors crimes. I wasn't here, and it isn't my fault.

You dont have to pay for them. Just acknowlege that it happened and *recently*. Of course you werent around to spread false information or vote for extermination-type policies. You werent around to buy up land that was taken from Natives and offered up for sale. Maybe you werent around to see kids taken from their families to be *educated* the white way. BUT you are here NOW and you can do things today, that can change -for the better- the problems that resulted from these things. (Im not saying it all is due to the nickname at UND. I do think the NICK is one thing that resulted from bad decisionmaking in the past.)

Crime drugs poverty, hell those are not easy issues to solve. The logo and nickname at UND - easy to change - except for those who cant or wont see the big picture.

[redwing77]

You dont have to pay for them. Just acknowlege that it happened and *recently*. Of course you werent around to spread false information or vote for extermination-type policies. You werent around to buy up land that was taken from Natives and offered up for sale. Maybe you werent around to see kids taken from their families to be *educated* the white way. BUT you are here NOW and you can do things today, that can change -for the better- the problems that resulted from these things. (Im not saying it all is due to the nickname at UND. I do think the NICK is one thing that resulted from bad decisionmaking in the past.)

Crime drugs poverty, hell those are not easy issues to solve. The logo and nickname at UND - easy to change - except for those who cant or wont see the big picture.

You know, we can't see the big picture because we've yet to be told how changing the nickname is going to solve the problems the NA people face.

We're still waiting for one good reason to change the name. Right now the reason is: "To make up for things that happened to us in the past."

I'm all for recognizing the ills of past society, but I am not apt to pay the consequences for people I've never met before, never seen in my life, nor lived before I did. It's in the past. It says in the past. This is NOW. Since EVERY example cited about abuse has happened minimum of 15 years in the past, I'm STILL waiting for examples to even define "RECENTLY" unless you are speaking scientifically, where, to archaeologists, 15 years ago was like yesterday in the timeline of World history.

[HockeyMom]

Go look in the brochures they use to entice Natives to come to this place. Go look in the Tribal College Journals. There is not ONE mention of FS BS anywhere.

Go Google the words "The University of North Dakota".

OH MY GAWD!!!!!

Look at the first response:

The University of North Dakota | Grand Forks, North Dakota Home of the Fighting Sioux, The University of North Dakota in Grand Forks, North Dakota, invites you to learn more about the campus.

Looks like your "conspiracy theory" on the University hiding the nickname, is unfounded.

Maybe you should have done more homework before you came to Grand Forks.

What did that take me like .04 seconds?

[The Sicatoka]

Just acknowlege that it happened and *recently*.

Bad things happened in the past. You bet. Never forget them else history's mistakes may repeat. I've posted my thoughts on this before. I'm not sure you had the chance to read them:

Forget about history and you will repeat it. History is replete with examples. Humanity lever learns. We choose to ignore or forget unpleasant chapters in history.

Humanity destroyed Rome, gave us the Huns, went on the Crusades, brought us Ghengis Khan, destroyed native North American peoples from the Aztecs to the Illini, tried to annihilate Jews from Europe, and today has Sunni killing Shi

[KnowtheFacts]

We're still waiting for one good reason to change the name. Right now the reason is: "To make up for things that happened to us in the past."

no, no, no.

The reason is: "Because the Sioux tribes, whom you claim to be honoring, have asked UND to change the name"

[Sioux-cia]

no, no, no.

The reason is: "Because the Sioux tribes, whom you claim to be honoring, have asked UND to change the name"

No, no, no. That is a flawed.

Some Sioux Indians have asked UND to change the name and logo. Some Sioux Indians 1) like the use of the name and logo, 2) don't care if the name and logo are used or 3) are proud of use of the name and logo.

The Sioux Indians that are being honored for their courage, bravery, perserverance, strength,are no long of this world. UND chooses to honor them. I believe that those who are gone would be honored by the use of their name and image by those they would consider their enemy. I don't believe they would be honored by excuses, apathy, self pity, 'the blame game', lack of responsibility.

[redwing77]

no, no, no.

The reason is: "Because the Sioux tribes, whom you claim to be honoring, have asked UND to change the name"

When has the GOVERNING bodies of the Sioux tribes passed such resolution?

All I know of is a United Tribal Council passing one. Last time I checked, they aren't a governing body.

Still waiting.

[7NationalTitles]

no, no, no.

The reason is: "Because the Sioux tribes, whom you claim to be honoring, have asked UND to change the name"

Oh really? They have now, have they?

Well if memory serves me, the Spirit Lake Sioux tribe has yet to rescind their resolution (from 2000 or 2001 - I forget the year) allowing UND to use the name and logo. So this doesn't fit your story that the Sioux tribes have asked it to be changed.

Are you trying to fill us with false statements again? Perhaps you should be a little more careful and clarify some of your statements. It would make you look less ignorant.

Oh, and by the way.......where is the outrage over the Mandan, ND High School Braves? I'm still waiting to hear the outcry there.

[KnowtheFacts]

When has the GOVERNING bodies of the Sioux tribes passed such resolution?

All I know of is a United Tribal Council passing one. Last time I checked, they aren't a governing body.

Still waiting.

Are you serious? I have copies of them right here. How come people seem to know about the Spirit Lake Resolution- which does not fully support or refuse the logo - but no one knows that 7 other Sioux Tribes have resolutions as well that are much more clear on where they stand on the issue.

Standing Rock Sioux Tribe (2 resolutions)

Sisseton-Wahpeton Sioux Tribe

Oglala Sioux Tribe

Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe

Yankton Sioux Tribe

Crow Creek Sioux Tribe

Rosebud Sioux Tribe

[7NationalTitles]

See how much better the information can be when you clarify it? Your first post made it seem like all Sioux tribes have refused the use of the nickname. When you clarify things at the outset, it helps when you try to make your point.

Also, still waiting about the Mandan Braves corrupting young adults minds with their "abusive and hostile" nickname.

Did those 7 Sioux tribes you listed also pass similar resolutions about Mandan High School? If so, I would like to know the reason why not if anyone can tell me that.

[siouxtatoo42]

See how much better the information can be when you clarify it? Your first post made it seem like all Sioux tribes have refused the use of the nickname. When you clarify things at the outset, it helps when you try to make your point.

Also, still waiting about the Mandan Braves corrupting young adults minds with their "abusive and hostile" nickname.

Did those 7 Sioux tribes you listed also pass similar resolutions about Mandan High School? If so, I would like to know the reason why not if anyone can tell me that.

i wanna know what the young white kids growing up in mandan think of growing up as the "braves" or if they had a say in changing the name, what would they be told by the natives there? would they be told that they have no say because of the sovereign nation and since they aren't native they don't get a say, or would they just say ok, because you are the minority here, and you asked nicely, demanded, picketed, had one leg to stand on, and got your ass kicked in every single argument to be made, we feel bad for you and are willing to change it to something more politically correct because that's the way this f'd up world is going. i'm gonna bet it's the former

[HockeyMom]

Hey KTF, what's up with the apple?

Please explain it to everyone so they can be enlightened......

[KnowtheFacts]

See how much better the information can be when you clarify it? Your first post made it seem like all Sioux tribes have refused the use of the nickname. When you clarify things at the outset, it helps when you try to make your point.

Also, still waiting about the Mandan Braves corrupting young adults minds with their "abusive and hostile" nickname.

Did those 7 Sioux tribes you listed also pass similar resolutions about Mandan High School? If so, I would like to know the reason why not if anyone can tell me that.

Im sure you could find many many other schools that have Indian-related nicknames. UND is one of only a few schools that chose to use a specific Tribal Name. Thus involving those specific tribes.