D-II vs. DI-AA level of play

[UND92,96]

You probably don't want advice from me, but if I were a UND guy, I'd probably lay off the comments about DI-AA being no better, or only slightly better, than DII until you find out that UND is in DII to stay. I can't see how anybody would get excited about ponying up to help double the football budget if that's the attitude. Not only that, suppose UND does go DI and has three consecutive 6-win seasons like UC Davis or averages 3 wins a season like UNC has the last two years (and those schools weren't exactly creampuff DII schools). Now further imagine the reaction of fans and alumni, if their administrations and fans had been telling everybody that going DI-AA was going to be no different than playing in the NCC? Kind of seems that folks are setting themselves up for a difficult situation.

I'm certainly not in favor of a dI move, but with regard to UNC, I don't think their recent problems have had much to do with increased competition in I-AA. They were far more inconsistent during their dII days than were UND or NDSU, particularly under Dalton, so having a couple of down years isn't all that unusual for them. The past two years, they would have struggled in the NCC, as well. As basically a glorified dII team in 2003, they did quite well in I-AA.

[snaggles]

Whooa! You guys have (apparently) lost the battle for two recruits, one of whom has academic reasons for choosing NDSU, and some of you are acting like all is lost and going DI is the only answer?

I think UND's problem, if there is one, is more about uncertainty. If UND had stuck to its guns about staying in DII, kids would know they were going to be playoff eligible or not. Right now they're not sure if they'll ever be playoff eligible at any point in their career at UND while at NDSU, they know they will be playoff eligible by their sophomore season. That's a big change from the last three years when UND won some pretty high profile recruiting battles of their own (e.g. Weston Dressler) in part because NDSU was still deep in their provisional period.

By next year, UND will have eliminated the uncertainty about playoff eligibility, but suppose UND does go DI, I think recruiting North Dakota and Minnesota kids is going to get harder before it gets easier. During its provisional period, NDSU could offer full rides (or nearly full rides) as well as the DI label - things that UND couldn't offer. UND isn't going to have those advantages over NDSU. OTOH, while the playoff thing hurt with local kids, the farther away you got, the less students cared - all they saw was a kickass stadium, big crowds, and an opportunity to play DI ball.

Besides, UND isn't playing NDSU anymore so it's not like this recruiting battle was about anything more than bragging rights. If UND starts losing recruiting battles with St. Cloud, Mankato, Duluth, Winona, Mary, etc. then that's a problem.

You probably don't want advice from me, but if I were a UND guy, I'd probably lay off the comments about DI-AA being no better, or only slightly better, than DII until you find out that UND is in DII to stay. I can't see how anybody would get excited about ponying up to help double the football budget if that's the attitude. Not only that, suppose UND does go DI and has three consecutive 6-win seasons like UC Davis or averages 3 wins a season like UNC has the last two years (and those schools weren't exactly creampuff DII schools). Now further imagine the reaction of fans and alumni, if their administrations and fans had been telling everybody that going DI-AA was going to be no different than playing in the NCC? Kind of seems that folks are setting themselves up for a difficult situation.

No, we don't want your advice. I really don't know how much better aa is than DII. I do know that both ndsu and sdsu had good records as soon as they made the jump. SDSU didn't do anything in the NCC and ndsu was not really setting the NCC on fire the last few years. Your fans and coaches cut down DII and the NCC and at the same time say how well the bison are doing in aa and how much better it is than DII (the same DII that the bison has done squat in the last 10 years). I will stick by my guns and say that aa is better than DII but not by the amount that the bison fans think. And the big difference if and when UND goes DI, is that we will not have the same arrogant attitude that the bison portray. Nor will we constantly cut down, make fun, insult, ridicule, and belittle the other NCC and DII schools like your fans and coaches do. I've heard the UNC coach and others talk about how great the NCC was and how competitve it was, but I have never heard any bison coach give any praise to the NCC and how good it was. It wasn't to long ago that the bison left that conference with their tail between their legs. It's just the same old arrogant B.S. that comes out of your fans and COACHES mouths. Hey Tony, if I was a NDSU guy, I'd probably lay off the comments about UND and other NCC schools, and how much better aa is, because if we all decide to go DI it might come back to bite you, and you guys might be right back where you were before you left the NCC. And I don't think any bison fan wants that humility again.

[Hansel]

I'm certainly not in favor of a dI move, but with regard to UNC, I don't think their recent problems have had much to do with increased competition in I-AA. They were far more inconsistent during their dII days than were UND or NDSU, particularly under Dalton, so having a couple of down years isn't all that unusual for them. The past two years, they would have struggled in the NCC, as well. As basically a glorified dII team in 2003, they did quite well in I-AA.

UNC went 3-2 against IAA teams in 03 (1-2 vs Fully Funded schools)

Since moving to IAA (03 for UNC/UCD, 04 for SU's), here are the records of schools vs fully funded IAA teams

UNC 3-13

UC-Davis 6-6

NDSU 6-4

SDSU 1-8

combined 16-31

vs DII over that same time span

a combined 19-1, (in 03 UCD lost to GVSU in OT)

[Kermit]

Since moving to IAA (03 for UNC/UCD, 04 for SU's), here are the records of schools vs fully funded IAA teams

UNC 3-13

UC-Davis 6-6

NDSU 6-4

SDSU 1-8

combined 16-31

vs DII over that same time span

a combined 19-1, (in 03 UCD lost to GVSU in OT)

I'm a UND fan and alum who sees both the Bison and Sioux play on a regular basis. Anyone who doesn't think there is a significant difference between D-IAA and D-II football is kidding themselves. That isn't to say that the Sioux wouldn't immediately do well in D-IAA--I think they would.

[UND92,96]

UNC went 3-2 against IAA teams in 03 (1-2 vs Fully Funded schools)

Since moving to IAA (03 for UNC/UCD, 04 for SU's), here are the records of schools vs fully funded IAA teams

UNC 3-13

UC-Davis 6-6

NDSU 6-4

SDSU 1-8

combined 16-31

vs DII over that same time span

a combined 19-1, (in 03 UCD lost to GVSU in OT)

Keep in mind that I never said there's no difference between dII and I-AA--merely that UNC is traditionally up and down. When they're up, they're very good. When they're down, they stink. With their location, if you give them another Joe Glenn-type coach, they'll do very well in I-AA. If you give them a 70-year-old coach who's best days are long gone, they're going to struggle. I do think that if they had the talent of their national championship teams, they'd do pretty well in I-AA, but that's not to say there's no difference in the divisions.

[IowaBison]

Keep in mind that I never said there's no difference between dII and I-AA--merely that UNC is traditionally up and down. When they're up, they're very good. When they're down, they stink. With their location, if you give them another Joe Glenn-type coach, they'll do very well in I-AA. If you give them a 70-year-old coach who's best days are long gone, they're going to struggle. I do think that if they had the talent of their national championship teams, they'd do pretty well in I-AA, but that's not to say there's no difference in the divisions.

How do you think they'll do with 40 odd scholarships during the next few years?

[UND92,96]

How do you think they'll do with 40 odd scholarships during the next few years?

If they're still at 40-something scholarships in their 4th season of I-AA, then that tells me they didn't plan very well and weren't financially ready to give themselves their best chance to succeed at I-AA football. They should at least be approaching 63 scholies by now.

[IowaBison]

It also tells you something about the Big Sky.

[sultan]

There has been a conversation going on about the comparison between DII and DIAA football. I would have to agree with Snaggles over the comment made by Kermit. Overall I definitely believe DIAA is stronger than DII, but I believe the Elite teams in DII are right there with almost all the top teams in DIAA. There are a lot of scores out there from some teams and particularly SDSU and NDSU over the last two and three years that back it up. I believe that the Texas team that was in the National Championship game in DIAA this year had to come from behind late in the game to barely beat Delta State. Delta State lost four games this year in DII. UND would do just fine in DIAA football. And they would do just fine almost immediately. Snaggles...you are right on about this subject.

[BisonMav]

I believe that the Texas team that was in the National Championship game in DIAA this year had to come from behind late in the game to barely beat Delta State.

Texas St lost in the Semi-finals to N Iowa who beat UMD 49-14. UMD was an elite NCC team and the NCC is an elite DII conference. Score comparision really does not mean much, wins and losses is what counts.

[BigGame]

Texas St lost in the Semi-finals to N Iowa who beat UMD 49-14. UMD was an elite NCC team and the NCC is an elite DII conference. Score comparision really does not mean much, wins and losses is what counts.

UMD also struggled on offense some early in the season and Texas State only beat Delta State by 10 or 14 points and Delta didn't even make the D2 playoffs. One game comparisons don't really tell the entire story. It's obvious that 1AA is a higher level of football, but it is a pretty minor jump that mainly involves the depth of the team at each postition.

[sultan]

Texas State only beat Delta State 32 to 25 and had to score late to beat them. Northern Iowa beat Texas State 40 to 37. Duluth was a much better at the end of the year than at the beginning. The top teams in DII are right there with the top of DIAA.

[BisonMav]

UMD also struggled on offense some early in the season and Texas State only beat Delta State by 10 or 14 points and Delta didn't even make the D2 playoffs. One game comparisons don't really tell the entire story. It's obvious that 1AA is a higher level of football, but it is a pretty minor jump that mainly involves the depth of the team at each postition.

I'll agree that DII to I-AA isn't as big of a jump as I-AA to I-A.

The only conference loss Texas St had was to Nichols St, the same Nichols St that lost to NDSU.

[Hansel]

One game comparisons don't really tell the entire story. It's obvious that 1AA is a higher level of football, but it is a pretty minor jump that mainly involves the depth of the team at each postition.

In addition to depth, IAA also puts a lot more "impact players" in the NFL. In 5 of the last 7 years an NFL MVP award has gone to someone who played IAA football. Recent "impact" players who played IAA include Rich Gannon, Kurt Warner, Jimmy Smith, Rodney Harrison, Steve McNair, Darren Sharper, Brian Westbrook, Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, with new guys like Jerome Mathis (Pro Bowl KR) and Samkon Gado emerging this year.

Not a lot of bigtime NFL guys have come from DII recently

[BigGame]

In addition to depth, IAA also puts a lot more "impact players" in the NFL. In 5 of the last 7 years an NFL MVP award has gone to someone who played IAA football. Recent "impact" players who played IAA include Rich Gannon, Kurt Warner, Jimmy Smith, Rodney Harrison, Steve McNair, Darren Sharper, Brian Westbrook, Terrell Owens, Randy Moss, with new guys like Jerome Mathis (Pro Bowl KR) and Samkon Gado emerging this year.

Not a lot of bigtime NFL guys have come from DII recently

Wasn't Marshall 1A when Moss was there?

It's funny that Gado was a backup in college but ends up doing pretty well for himself in the NFL, but I don't think he is going to be an impact player considering his opportunity was due to a bunch of injuries and his fumbling problems.

[Hansel]

Wasn't Marshall 1A when Moss was there?

It's funny that Gado was a backup in college but ends up doing pretty well for himself in the NFL, but I don't think he is going to be an impact player considering his opportunity was due to a bunch of injuries and his fumbling problems.

Moss played both IAA and IA as did Pennington and I think Daunte Fumblepepper

[snaggles]

A bison fan is actaully making sense here. Mav, your post sums it up perfectly what I have been saying. You are comparing the bison to texas state, a semi-final team in aa. If you are putting the bison in the same breath as a team that reaches the aa semi's, then you better put UND, Omaha, St. Cloud and other good regional DII teams in the same breath also. The bison's biggest win against a aa school is when you beat montana, and that is when you were DII, the same year you didn't make the DII playoffs. You can take all the score comparisons you want, but the bottom line is the bison instantly became a good aa team a year after they could not win the NCC or make the playoffs. So I will agree with you Mav, the jump between DII and aa is not as big as the jump between aa and I-A. Mav, now you have to go on the bison site and put your post over there.

[BigGame]

Not a lot of bigtime NFL guys have come from DII recently

This is a pretty good list of current players.

http://www.d2football.com/index.php?fuseaction=home.alumni

[Bison Dan]

A bison fan is actaully making sense here. Mav, your post sums it up perfectly what I have been saying. You are comparing the bison to texas state, a semi-final team in aa. If you are putting the bison in the same breath as a team that reaches the aa semi's, then you better put UND, Omaha, St. Cloud and other good regional DII teams in the same breath also. The bison's biggest win against a aa school is when you beat montana, and that is when you were DII, the same year you didn't make the DII playoffs. You can take all the score comparisons you want, but the bottom line is the bison instantly became a good aa team a year after they could not win the NCC or make the playoffs. So I will agree with you Mav, the jump between DII and aa is not as big as the jump between aa and I-A. Mav, now you have to go on the bison site and put your post over there.

Actually not true - back in 2003 we could have played the Griz 10 times and won maybe 2 times. Anything can happen in a one game deal. The Griz made the playoffs that year but lost in the first round at home. (and the Griz don't lose at home often) You can speculate all you want about how UND would do in DI-AA but that's all you can do. It seems like most UND fans use the NDSU game with the Griz as a measuring stick - well it's a short stick. Fact is DI-AA has better skill players and more speed than dii. Can a quality dii team beat a top 20 DI-AA team - sure in a one game series but game in and game out they will lose more than win.

[Cratter]

Fact is DI-AA has better skill players and more speed than dii. Can a quality dii team beat a top 20 DI-AA team - sure in a one game series but game in and game out they will lose more than win.

The fact is everyone knows AA is "better" than D2. Every division you go up gets arbitrarily better, as one would assume. The question isn't whether one team from one division can beat another team from another division in a game, but game in and game out can a team that has just moved to AA from D2 not only beat those teams, but even ranked among those top 20 (25) teams within a few years.

And the answer seems to be yes. That is the measuring stick, not the NDSU vs UM game.

That sir shows there is not that great of a gap between the two divisions. A gap: Yes. A wide gas (as some NDSU fans want UND fans to believe): No.

[Bison Dan]

The fact is everyone knows AA is "better" than D2. Every division you go up gets arbitrarily better, as one would assume. The question isn't whether one team from one division can beat another team from another division in a game, but game in and game out can a team that has just moved to AA from D2 not only beat those teams, but even ranked among those top 20 (25) teams within a few years.

And the answer seems to be yes. That is the measuring stick, not the NDSU vs UM game.

That sir shows there is not that great of a gap between the two divisions. A gap: Yes. A wide gas (as some NDSU fans want UND fans to believe): No.

Your forgetting about the recruiting in the last 3 years. Hey think what you want but until UND goes out and schedules some DI-AA teams it's only speculation.

[IowaBison]

The fact is everyone knows AA is "better" than D2. Every division you go up gets arbitrarily better, as one would assume. The question isn't whether one team from one division can beat another team from another division in a game, but game in and game out can a team that has just moved to AA from D2 not only beat those teams, but even ranked among those top 20 (25) teams within a few years. That is the measuring stick, not the NDSU vs UM game.

And the answer seems to be yes.

That sir shows there is not that great of a gap between the two divisions. A gap: Yes. A wide gas (as some NDSU fans want UND fans to believe): No.

baloney.

UND has one of the best programs in DII. Playing a competitive schedule in DIAA (vs. Big Sky, Great West, Gateway and Southland Confence teams (fully funded conferences)) with this year's team, I think they'd be lucky to go 6-5. At best, they'd end up in the top 25, 7-4/8-3.

So going from somewhere around 1-5 in DII to somewhere around 25-40 is a 'wide gap' to me.

Honestly, I'd love to be proven wrong, but first some folks up north need to pony up some dough.

I bet if you called up a mid-level BSC team, you'd probably get a game. Heck, why don't the Sioux call up Wanless at Sac State, I bet you could get a game (and if so almost certainly the win).

[sultan]

SDSU lost a 7-0 game to Montana this year and some said they easily could of , or should of, won the game. The Rabbits are still practically at the same scholarship levels they were at in DII. The Bison fans should go back to their website and spread their baloney. Maybe some one there will believe them.

[FargoBison]

SDSU lost a 7-0 game to Montana this year and some said they easily could of , or should of, won the game. The Rabbits are still practically at the same scholarship levels they were at in DII. The Bison fans should go back to their website and spread their baloney. Maybe some one there will believe them.

SDSU is much improved over their old DII days and they started the season off playing well but eventually not being fully funded took it's toll on their team and they weren't as good at the end of the year. I think IowaBison is right in saying give UND NDSU's schedule and the result will probably be a 6-5 season. I don't think UND or any DII team could handle that type of schedule because DII teams rarely play fully funded teams week in and week out. UND only played two and ended up losing to both of them. If you can't beat fully funded DII teams why do you think you guys can march right into IAA beat up on fully funded IAA schools? I know many here are a bit upset with Bison fans putting down DII but the division is really down and most of it is a result of the lack of fully funded teams and these teams don't do anything to better themselves they would rather wait and have the scholarship limit lowered. Besides maybe a handful of DII teams the gap between the two division is huge.

[Cratter]

baloney.

UND has one of the best programs in DII. Playing a competitive schedule in DIAA (vs. Big Sky, Great West, Gateway and Southland Confence teams (fully funded conferences)) with this year's team, I think they'd be lucky to go 6-5. At best, they'd end up in the top 25, 7-4/8-3.

So going from somewhere around 1-5 in DII to somewhere around 25-40 is a 'wide gap' to me.

Honestly, I'd love to be proven wrong, but first some folks up north need to pony up some dough.

I bet if you called up a mid-level BSC team, you'd probably get a game. Heck, why don't the Sioux call up Wanless at Sac State, I bet you could get a game (and if so almost certainly the win).

You say Baloney, but then back up my point and agree with what I'm saying? Realize that this being a Sioux Sports site that when a say "a division 2 team" I am generally talking about UND.

When I said "just moved" I meant given a time frame of 2-4 years. Within that time frame, UND and NDSU would/should/could be ranked in the top 25, and again you seem to backup the point by saying that with this division 2 UND team that they could possibly be ranked.

Now add in a few years, and you have yourself a very successful "just moved up" DIAA team. That is what UND fans are saying. That the measuring stick isn't the NDSU vs UM game, but how easily UNC did in their first year (I realize they are struggling now, but they were never very good in their last years of D2), SDSU, and how NDSU are doing now. You can not argue those facts. Those teams just moved up and are becoming ranked the first few years in the top 25 during the season. It is not that big of a jump.

Your kidding yourself if you don't think UND could do the same if not better than NDSU currently does (did).