UND's DI review committee

[PCM]

I don't remember the consultants saying don't go DI. Must be UND logic.

No, it was a joke.

[The Sicatoka]

I don't remember the consultants saying don't go DI.

You don't? Let me help you.

From NDSU's Carr Report Executive Summary:

The Consultants recommend that the University begin the transition process, but only after it has achieved the following:

- Establish an institutional consensus that the reclassification from NCAA Division II to Division I-AA is consistent with the University

[PCM]

They said, "Go DI after you have secured a conference membership."

A recommendation that was obviously ignored by NDSU and SDSU. But why should UND pay to ignore a consultant when it can do it for free?

[The Sicatoka]

But why should UND pay to ignore a consultant when it can do it for free?

No, the better question is:

Why should UND pay a consultant when it can ignore the advice of a consultant someone else paid for and ignored for free?

[Bison Dan]

No, the better question is:

Why should UND pay a consultant when it can ignore the advice of a consultant someone else paid for and ignored for free?

Point is what's UND's excuse going to be when they do DI? We're doing just fine in DI, it's you that are having a hard time with it and being dii.

[Rick]

We're doing just fine in DI, it's you that are having a hard time with it and being dii.

Has your definition of "doing just fine" loosened in the last couple years?

[Teeder11]

Must be a glass-half-full mentality.... which is fine. UND has tended to be a bit more pragmatic in its approach.

[PCM]

Point is what's UND's excuse going to be when they do DI?

I believe that I can summarize that "excuse" as follows: Just because NDSU jumped off a cliff doesn't mean that UND should, too.

I hope this clears things up for you.

[UND92,96]

Apparently the annual NCC winter meetings were held last week (per a poster on the d2football.com board). It certainly would be interesting to know what, if anything came out of that meeting with regard to the dI issue and/or the progress in finding new members.

[IowaBison]

Must be a glass-half-full mentality.... which is fine. UND has tended to be a bit more pragmatic in its approach.

Is that why UND is rushing to get its study done in four months? (Start Jan 10-end before spring commencement)

Is that why UND is not getting an outside perspective by not hiring a consultant?

[sultan]

Point is what's UND's excuse going to be when they do DI? We're doing just fine in DI, it's you that are having a hard time with it and being dii.

You have won some football games in DIAA and so would UND if we moved up. By national standards you are mediocre at best, or least, at your other sports. You will never be a contender in any of your sports other than football. If NDSU thinks that there doing just fine, more power to you. At least NDSU fans will always be able to schedule vacations for March since they won't have anything else going on. If UND decides to move up, we will do it because we want to, not because NDSU wants us to. By the way, the make believe conference you made up basketball sounds real exciting. Those teams are for sure going to fill your stands. At least your guaranteed to win some games next year.

[PCM]

Is that why UND is rushing to get its study done in four months? (Start Jan 10-end before spring commencement)

Four months is your definition of "rushing"? Do you work for the NCAA?

UND's been studying this issue for the past couple of years. It's not as if there's a lot of new ground to cover.

Is that why UND is not getting an outside perspective by not hiring a consultant?

How do you know that UND's not going to hire a consultant? And even if it did, would the consultant's advice be poles apart from what NDSU's and SDSU's consultants told them? What magical solutions does hiring a consultant create?

[IowaBison]

Four months is your definition of "rushing"? Do you work for the NCAA?

I think it's quite quick, yes.

UND's been studying this issue for the past couple of years. It's not as if there's a lot of new ground to cover.

Really, so the whole time UND was bashing NDSU, easily into the fall of '04, UND was studying the issue themselves. I guess it all depends on one's definition of 'study'.

How do you know that UND's not going to hire a consultant? And even if it did, would the consultant's advice be poles apart from what NDSU's and SDSU's consultants told them? What magical solutions does hiring a consultant create?

Well if the study's due in four months, they'd better hire somebody quick.

Hiring a consultant brings an objective, professional, with experience in the field, to lead or conduct some portion of the study.

[PCM]

I think it's quite quick, yes.

Given the amount of time UND has already spent studying the issue, I don't think four months qualifies as "quick." We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

Really, so the whole time UND was bashing NDSU, easily into the fall of '04, UND was studying the issue themselves. I guess it all depends on one's definition of 'study'.

Red herring. UND's alleged "bashing" of NDSU has nothing to do with how much or how little the university has studied the issue. UND has been studying the DI move to one degree or another ever since NDSU announced that it was serious about making the move itself. You can dispute that until you're blue in the face, but you'll be wrong.

Hiring a consultant brings an objective, professional, with experience in the field, to lead or conduct some portion of the study.

You didn't answer my question. Why would what a consultant tells UND be far different from what NDSU's and SDSU's consultants told them? Why should UND hire a consultant to hear what it already knows?

[Bison Dan]

Given the amount of time UND has already spent studying the issue, I don't think four months qualifies as "quick." We'll have to agree to disagree on that point.

Red herring. UND's alleged "bashing" of NDSU has nothing to do with how much or how little the university has studied the issue. UND has been studying the DI move to one degree or another ever since NDSU announced that it was serious about making the move itself. You can dispute that until you're blue in the face, but you'll be wrong.

You didn't answer my question. Why would what a consultant tells UND be far different from what NDSU's and SDSU's consultants told them? Why should UND hire a consultant to hear what it already knows?

Then why review committee?

[IowaBison]

Red herring. UND's alleged "bashing" of NDSU has nothing to do with how much or how little the university has studied the issue. UND has been studying the DI move to one degree or another ever since NDSU announced that it was serious about making the move itself. You can dispute that until you're blue in the face, but you'll be wrong.

Hence my use of the definition qualification.

You didn't answer my question. Why would what a consultant tells UND be far different from what NDSU's and SDSU's consultants told them? Why should UND hire a consultant to hear what it already knows?

If UND already knows everything, why study the issue at all!?!

A consultant will make the process appear more formal, more professional, and more objective.

IMO, UND needs to reach a definitive 'yes' or 'no' conclusion with regards to the move as soon as possible. In either case there are going to be some unhappy Sioux fans. My thought is do it right, do it once, hiring a consultant helps ensure that this occurs.

It's also plausible that the committee lacks the expertise to conduct the study in house. There are a lot of things (and work) that go along with the study, omit one or mess one up and the results may change significantly

Four months isn't that long to do a study of this kind. If you look at their timeline it's fantastically quick. The survey part alone should take six months to do, especially as they are doing this in house, let alone any analysis of the results.

[UND92,96]

Does anyone know whether Northern Colorado hired a consultant prior to its move to dI? Has a consultant ever said to one of its clients that it has very little chance of successfully making the jump to dI? I don't know, I'm just asking.

[PCM]

If UND already knows everything, why study the issue at all!?!

Show me where I said UND knew everything. You can't because I didn't say it.

A consultant will make the process appear more formal, more professional, and more objective.

That still doesn't answer my question.

IMO, UND needs to reach a definitive 'yes' or 'no' conclusion with regards to the move as soon as possible. In either case there are going to be some unhappy Sioux fans. My thought is do it right, do it once, hiring a consultant helps ensure that this occurs.

Read my lips: I'm not saying UND shouldn't hire a consultant. I'm not saying UND will never hire a consultant. I'm asking whether it's likely that a consultant will tell UND something that it didn't tell NDSU and SDSU.

[The Sicatoka]

UND needs to reach a definitive 'yes' or 'no' conclusion with regards to the move as soon as possible.

If you already knew the answer to the "Why four months?" question why'd you ask it?

[The Sicatoka]

Then why review committee?

From NDSU's Carr Report Executive Summary:

- Establish an institutional consensus that the reclassification from NCAA Division II to Division I-AA is consistent with the University

[The Sicatoka]

It's also plausible that the committee lacks the expertise to conduct the study in house. There are a lot of things (and work) that go along with the study, omit one or mess one up and the results may change significantly.

And consultants always have all of the necessary expertise and never mess up?

[IowaBison]

Show me where I said UND knew everything. You can't because I didn't say it.

let me reparaphrase your point: UND has nothing to gain from a consultant because it will only tell it what it already knows.

-apparently UND doesn't know all that it needs to know because they are conducting this study!

That still doesn't answer my question.

The decision is going to be highly scrutinized. Having a professional involved in the process will help defend against that scrutiny.

[IowaBison]

From NDSU's Carr Report Executive Summary:

[IowaBison]

And consultants always have all of the necessary expertise and never mess up?

Definitely not, but they do this stuff for a living. How many members of the committee have experience formally studying reclassification?

[PCM]

And consultants always have all of the necessary expertise and never mess up?

Face it. We're just no good at reading between the lines. I think IowaBison's message is that because NDSU hired a consultant, UND must take the same approach. Operating under the assumption that NDSU is the best possible model for accomplishing a move to DI, UND can't hope to be successful without mimicking NDSU's process. We're just not smart enough to figure these things out on our own.