Another discussion on the Sioux Nickname

[The Sicatoka]

If we're all on the same boat, why don't we have a team named the Fighting Germans, Fighting Nazis, Fighting Japs, etc, etc? Because if we did, those people would get pretty pissed, too.

Idaho Vandals

Notre Dame Fighting Irish

Augustana College Vikings

Southern California Trojans

Michigan State Spartans

Florida State Seminoles

I'm not seeing people as spun up about those.

As far as a commercial, I know who I am (and I don't go around having to prove who I am to others) so it doesn't bother me. I see it as a part of life. I'd rather let people say what they will to learn what they think than force them to limited words and limited thoughts.

I am who I am: I'm not just my race, or my profession, or my religion, or my hobbies. I don't let any one thing consume or define me.

Like Marc Ranfranz was quoted one time, "There are stereotypes of just about anything. ... If you're going to stress out about stereotypes of your background, it's a lot of wasted time. You can't control what other people are going to say."

Edited December 16, 2005 by The Sicatoka

[choyt3]

American Indians have served in all our nation's wars despite the fact that they were not granted citizenship until 1924. 12,000 Native Americans served our country heroically in WWI, 44,000 (of a total population of 350,000 First Americans at the time) served in WW II, and 42,000 (over 90% of which were volunteers) served in Vietnam. Native Americans have the highest record of service per capita of all the ethnic groups in America. Perhaps, the best reason for these astonishing statistics was explained in a statement made by Raymond Nahai ,a Native WW II veteran when he said, "Many have asked why we fight the white man's war. Our answer is that we are proud to be Americans, and we are proud to be American Indians. The American Indian always stands ready when his country needs him." Another reason that Native Americans seem always to come to the assistance of this country in times of need goes back to time honored traits held in esteem by all Native American societies. These are Strength, Honor, Pride in the people, Devotion, Wisdom, and Spiritual Strength. These are the traits which made them feared opponents in the battle against "Manifest Destiny", and it is what makes them courageous warriors today.

Nice to see you can use the copy and paste function, since your paragraph is verbatim from this website. Why do you feel you need to pass on others' words as your own? Normally, if someone uses material from another site, credit to that site is required. Give us a break. Too bad "they" hooked up your internet again this week. It was pretty peaceful around here.

[dagies]

If we're all on the same boat, why don't we have a team named the Fighting Germans, Fighting Nazis, Fighting Japs, etc, etc? Because if we did, those people would get pretty pissed, too. As for the commercial, well, I could care less about the commercial, if it does affect you, I suggest you write to Capital one.

I'm German. Wouldn't be a problem for me. Actually I'd be proud. And, ah, "Nazi's" and "Japs" aren't quite the same as "Sioux". There IS a difference there.

[GrahamKracker]

I'm German. Wouldn't be a problem for me. Actually I'd be proud. And, ah, "Nazi's" and "Japs" aren't quite the same as "Sioux". There IS a difference there.

True. But you need to do your history on this before you type away, there have been numerous incidences on campus where we weren't only called "sioux", comments like "prairie nigger", squaw, etc, so eventually words like "nazi" and "jap" would surface. So there really ISN'T a difference.

[GrahamKracker]

Nice to see you can use the copy and paste function, since your paragraph is verbatim from this website. Why do you feel you need to pass on others' words as your own? Normally, if someone uses material from another site, credit to that site is required. Give us a break. Too bad "they" hooked up your internet again this week. It was pretty peaceful around here.

Y eah I did cut and paste that......you must be a regular sherlock holmes to figure that one out. I was too busy to put where it came from, my bad.

But if that's all you have to say, then you've said it. Go away now. As for my absence, I was always here, but y'all don't have anything to talk about until I get here....

As for having my "internet" hooked up, is that a reference to being poor? Does that make you feel better to put people down? So what if my vehicles are 5 years old, or that I live in University Apartments? I am here, doing what I need to do. Think what you will, if it makes you feel better.

[GrahamKracker]

Idaho Vandals

Notre Dame Fighting Irish

Augustana College Vikings

Southern California Trojans

Michigan State Spartans

Florida State Seminoles

I'm not seeing people as spun up about those.

As far as a commercial, I know who I am (and I don't go around having to prove who I am to others) so it doesn't bother me. I see it as a part of life. I'd rather let people say what they will to learn what they think than force them to limited words and limited thoughts.

I am who I am: I'm not just my race, or my profession, or my religion, or my hobbies. I don't let any one thing consume or define me.

Like Marc Ranfranz was quoted one time, "There are stereotypes of just about anything. ... If you're going to stress out about stereotypes of your background, it's a lot of wasted time. You can't control what other people are going to say."

lol.....I feel sorry for you all who have to resort to quotes from hockey players.....that's really getting desperate if you ask me. The Sioux nation does not want you using our name. That's the difference.

[Sioux-cia]

, "Many have asked why we fight the white man's war. Our answer is that we are proud to be Americans, and we are proud to be American Indians. The American Indian always stands ready when his country needs him." Another reason that Native Americans seem always to come to the assistance of this country in times of need goes back to time honored traits held in esteem by all Native American societies. These are Strength, Honor, Pride in the people, Devotion, Wisdom, and Spiritual Strength. These are the traits which made them feared opponents in the battle against "Manifest Destiny", and it is what makes them courageous warriors today.

As for you C.I.A, your on ignore, I could care less what you say. But I would like to see you NOT SELLING any items for profit on here. I was told not to, I don't see how you can.....oh wait, I forgot, I'm not a fan of FS sports so I don't get special treatment.

We all honor the AMERICAN men and women who serve our country in the armed forces, black, white, red, brown, yellow and all the Heinz 57. Many served and continue to serve who are not American citizens.

The American Indian quote is from a man who was obviously proud to serve and didn't worry about being 'suckered' into serving in the military.

Of course you care what I say. Why else would you respond to some my posts and choose to ignore those that you know to be true of your character.

[7NationalTitles]

I stated a question/opinion on another topic that GrahamKracker started but have yet to hear a response from anyone on it. I'm curious as to what GK's thoughts are on the subject. I'm interested to see how he spins it.

Here is what I had posted:

I've been watching the debate for a long time from the sidelines. One thing that has struck me is that the proponents of the name change state that the logo and nickname stereotype the Native Americans and Sioux in a derogatory way. They say that it causes others to think about them in a negative way. The name change proponents are so very concerned about negative stereotypes.

On that note, I would think that many would agree that Native Americans in the past have been stereotyped in other negative ways. One being is that those who are racist have occasionally called Native Americans a bunch of gambling drunks. Now I don't condone this type of thinking but am using it to make a point.

This is a harsh and negative stereotype against Native Americans and one that I don't condone. Proponents of the name change say that as long as the Sioux logo and nickname are around, there will continue to be negative stereotypes based on the logo and nickname. Well OK, if this is a negative stereotype then why do Native Americans have the Indian name and Indian logos plastered all over casinos. These casinos nowadays are highly synonomous with Native Americans.

So I ask this....isn't the continued use of the Native American name and images on the casinos by Native Americans causing the ongoing stereotype that I mentioned above...the gambling drunks stereotype? The casino being synonomous with gambling and also liquor. If one item (the logo and nickname) cause continued misrepresentations of the Native American community, then isn't the use of casinos doing the same?

I've never heard that argument by the proponents before. I guess it's OK for one negative stereotype to be gotten rid of while the continued stereotyping of another exists. It must be the fact that Native Americans profit directly off the casinos and not the University and this is why Native Americans are concerned about one stereotype and not another.

I'm curious to hear a response to this (the spin will be quite extraordinary I'm sure) or if anyone else has any comments. Have a Merry Christmas all.

[PCM]

lol.....I feel sorry for you all who have to resort to quotes from hockey players.....that's really getting desperate if you ask me. The Sioux nation does not want you using our name. That's the difference.

A hockey player who's father was the president of the Flandreau-Santee Sioux tribe in South Dakota at the time those words were said. He was also a hockey player whose Sioux friends and relatives had no problem attending games in Engelstad Arena.

[Sioux-cia]

If we're all on the same boat, why don't we have a team named the Fighting Germans, Fighting Nazis, Fighting Japs, etc, etc? Because if we did, those people would get pretty pissed, too. As for the commercial, well, I could care less about the commercial, if it does affect you, I suggest you write to Capital one.

Dallas Cowboys - Any Cowboys out there pissed about this team name?

Minnesota Vikings - Already represented and no they're not pissed.

Fighting Irish - Hey Irish, pissed off yet?

etc., etc.

[Bacardio]

Go ahead and pick apart my words. I know that these are acts of desperation on your part. "the name is going to change and I can't do a damn thing about it, so I guess I'll just pick apart everything GK has to say, just to try to get under his skin".

I could care less what you think. The bottom line (which you choose to ignore) is the fact that the SIOUX Nation that you attempt to honor does not want you to use any reference to the SIOUX. How hard is that to understand? No one talks about that, unless you talk "polls", or a friend of yours who know a person who knows a native. Yeah, those are all skewed, I can find a friend of a white friend who thinks the name should be changed, too, so it works both ways. But the facts are the facts, and those facts are that we don't want UND to use the "sioux", or any logos depicting natives. Plain and simple.

In all honesty GK, you have taken this far beyond the "name change". You have been spouting your racial superiority over every culture, race, cred, and religion. Crying and whining about how everyone picks on you. And if people don't think the way you do, something is wrong with them. Because they aren't/aren't enough Sioux and of the Sioux you are the Great Chief and the mouthpiece of the Great Spirit. You constantly say you aren't respected because you are an Indian and therefore looked down on by others. You are not respect GK, for WHO you are, not WHAT you are.

You do this or you do that and that makes you that much better then so and so. Everyone else is just a wannabe Sioux. Jada Jada Jada. Considering all the traits that represent the Sioux warrior, Strength, Honor, Pride in the people, Devotion, Wisdom, and Spiritual Strength, I and many others who you have claimed superiority over, are more Sioux than you.

We don't preach hate, we don't preach intolerance, we don't preach superiority over anyone.

You see, you are no different then any other culture. Every culture has been knocked on to its ass, and had to pick itself up and accept the past and make the best of the present for a brighter future.

IF you really are Sioux and I don't give a rat's ass what you "tribal ID' say, then act like you are Sioux.

And yes, GK, I am one those people who are ready to change the name. Not because I feel it is demeaning to you, but because you have forever changed my image of a Sioux Warrior (for that I apoligize to all the really Sioux warriors out there) and the fact that the Spirit Lake tribe wouldn't take a stance at all on the issue when asked by the NCAA.

As my sensi would say, You have no honor.

It is horrible to say, but you GK, mako, KTF, have poisoned the image of a strong, proud race.

I am now strongly in the camp to change the name to Ojibwa, if the letter from the tribe is true, or to something Norse.

[ScottM]

I honestly don't know why you guys respond to GK. He's obviously disturbed. He hates himself, his lot in life and his heritage. His only way of venting is to come here and spew his diatribes in the hope that somebody will give him the attention he craves. Rather than attempting to engage him, it's probably better to take pity on his pathetic soul, and appreciate the fact that somebody is kind enough to let him play on the 'puter. One can only hope that he gets the help he so deperately needs, before he hurts himself.

[HockeyMom]

As for you C.I.A, your on ignore, I could care less what you say. But I would like to see you NOT SELLING any items for profit on here. I was told not to, I don't see how you can.....oh wait, I forgot, I'm not a fan of FS sports so I don't get special treatment.

Good thing that she's not infringing on a trademark..............

[Sioux-cia]

... there have been numerous incidences on campus where we weren't only called "sioux", comments like "prairie nigger", squaw, etc, so eventually words like "nazi" and "jap" would surface. So there really ISN'T a difference.

They only person to use racist, derogatory names on this board has been GK. The first time I heard the 'prairie N word' was when GK posted it in the name change tread. So it seems there is a difference. GK can use derogatory racial slurs when speaking to and of others but UND can not use the Fighting Sioux name and logo with respect and honor because the athletes aren't 'real Sioux'. This is the point where I should be able to say, 'OK, I get it now', but I don't.

[Sioux-cia]

As for my absence, I was always here, but y'all don't have anything to talk about until I get here....

As for having my "internet" hooked up, is that a reference to being poor? Does that make you feel better to put people down? So what if my vehicles are 5 years old, or that I live in University Apartments? I am here, doing what I need to do. Think what you will, if it makes you feel better.

I distinctly remember you're posting after returning from your forced 'vacation' that you would not be returning until the name change issue was resolved. Yet here you are, back again. We must be as entertaining for you as you are to us.

Why would you think that someone saying something about getting your internet hooked up have to be about your economic status? Why can't it be about being computer illiterate, or a power outage, or changing servers, or anything else? Damn, boy, get a grip!

[dagies]

True. But you need to do your history on this before you type away, there have been numerous incidences on campus where we weren't only called "sioux", comments like "prairie nigger", squaw, etc, so eventually words like "nazi" and "jap" would surface. So there really ISN'T a difference.

No. Because you suggested those names as nicknames for the UND teams. No one is suggesting those racist terms for American Indians to be used as the offician name of UND teams.

[GrahamKracker]

You do this or you do that and that makes you that much better then so and so. Everyone else is just a wannabe Sioux. Jada Jada Jada. Considering all the traits that represent the Sioux warrior, Strength, Honor, Pride in the people, Devotion, Wisdom, and Spiritual Strength, I and many others who you have claimed superiority over, are more Sioux than you.

We don't preach hate, we don't preach intolerance, we don't preach superiority over anyone.

Wannabe Sioux. So you're saying your Sioux? Wow, the brainwashing worked! I wonder how many white people have stated this fact to me over the last couple years, too many to count. Yet, when I go back to my Sioux reservation, I don't see them anywhere.

You think so highly of yourself, but you are nothing. You hide behind your posts. Keep hiding because that's the way things are done on this messageboard.

As for your comments, if you truly had "honor, pride, devotion, wisdom, spiritual strength" and you didn't preach "hate, intolerance, and superiority" then this name issue wouldn't even be an issue because you would have seen long ago that the people who you claim to honor doesn't want you to honor them anymore.

I wonder if other Institutions have this discussion? I wonder if the Gophers, Badgers, Pioneers, etc, etc, hold so proudly to their mascots....I wonder if they "think" they are what their mascots are....I wonder if they put as much devotion into it, or if its just here.

I wonder about the people who say they will be "Sioux forever" and wear Sioux across their ass and live and die by Sioux wins and loses, I wonder if they even know how stupid they look impersonating a people that they know nothing about. I wonder.

[GrahamKracker]

No. Because you suggested those names as nicknames for the UND teams. No one is suggesting those racist terms for American Indians to be used as the offician name of UND teams.

a Nazi is racist? Nah, they are just a part of history. My ancestors killed many, many Germans. My ancestors also killed many, many japanese people, and at the time they called them "Japs". Hell, I was watching the History Channel the other day and famous Admirals proudly talked about "Killing the Japs".

My point is that even if the intentions may have been good in the beginning, Like the Fighting Sioux.....it eventually becomes "not-so-nice", especially in a part of the country where Natives have been treated like sh*t for the last 150 years, do you really think that because UND used this name that Caucasian people have treated Indians w/ more respect? If you do, you need to open your eyes more.

Whatever your reason to complain, just remember that the SIOUX NATION is not behind UND's use of the FS logo/mascot/name. If you need copies of the resolutions, just tell me where to send them to.

[Air Force One]

*yawns*

Ya know how a yawn is contagious?

*yawn*

[7NationalTitles]

Wow, all the outrage over the UND name when I haven't heard one person mention the outrage of the high school in Mandan, ND using the Braves as it's monicker. And they have an Indian-head logo too.

Where's the outcry GrahamKracker? I want to hear them bashed as much as UND. What about the fact that minors are being corrupted by the use of the name? Let's all take a stand now against Mandan.

Oh wait, sorry, I forgot. It's only UND that the name change proponents here in ND care about.

[dagies]

a Nazi is racist? Nah, they are just a part of history. My ancestors killed many, many Germans. My ancestors also killed many, many japanese people, and at the time they called them "Japs". Hell, I was watching the History Channel the other day and famous Admirals proudly talked about "Killing the Japs".

My point is that even if the intentions may have been good in the beginning, Like the Fighting Sioux.....it eventually becomes "not-so-nice", especially in a part of the country where Natives have been treated like sh*t for the last 150 years, do you really think that because UND used this name that Caucasian people have treated Indians w/ more respect? If you do, you need to open your eyes more.

Whatever your reason to complain, just remember that the SIOUX NATION is not behind UND's use of the FS logo/mascot/name. If you need copies of the resolutions, just tell me where to send them to.

Feel free to do a little research. I don't think I've ever said that the Fighting Sioux nickname has caused Caucasian people to treat Indians with more respect. I have said it is generally accepted imitation is the fairest form of flattery. I also don't think the use of the nickname has gotten "not so nice", as you say.

Your post shows me that you are now just making up reasons on why the name should be changed. And it is why you get so little respect here. It's also why so many fight hard to keep the name from changing. Because if the name needs to change, it needs to change for some valid reasons. And you've not communicated any effectively in this forum.

On the Nazis, I guess they must have been "Jewists" then....

[PCM]

My point is that even if the intentions may have been good in the beginning, Like the Fighting Sioux.....it eventually becomes "not-so-nice", especially in a part of the country where Natives have been treated like sh*t for the last 150 years, do you really think that because UND used this name that Caucasian people have treated Indians w/ more respect? If you do, you need to open your eyes more.

For what seems like the millionth time, the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo has absolutely nothing to do with how much respect you or members of your tribe receive from whites. Respect is earned, not given. Changing every Indian-related sports team name in the nation today will not give you one single ounce of respect tomorrow or any time in the future.

Your presence on this board is an excellent example of how this works. You came here saying that you wanted to discuss the issue, and many here were glad to have that opportunity. But for some reason, you think the fact that you are more Sioux than other Sioux, more Indian than any other Indian and more of a warrior than any other warrior gives you the right treat those who disagree with you like garbage. And then you have the gall to wonder why nobody respects you.

[Sioux-cia]

You think so highly of yourself, but you are nothing. You hide behind your posts. Keep hiding because that's the way things are done on this messageboard.

Well, hey Gk, I guess your nothing, I've read all your posts and must have missed your bio. Care to repost it. "Yeah that's what I thought". (one of your most annoying, repeated statements, presumes you can read minds.)

[iramurphy]

Wannabe Sioux. So you're saying your Sioux? Wow, the brainwashing worked! I wonder how many white people have stated this fact to me over the last couple years, too many to count. Yet, when I go back to my Sioux reservation, I don't see them anywhere.

You think so highly of yourself, but you are nothing. You hide behind your posts. Keep hiding because that's the way things are done on this messageboard.

As for your comments, if you truly had "honor, pride, devotion, wisdom, spiritual strength" and you didn't preach "hate, intolerance, and superiority" then this name issue wouldn't even be an issue because you would have seen long ago that the people who you claim to honor doesn't want you to honor them anymore.

I wonder if other Institutions have this discussion? I wonder if the Gophers, Badgers, Pioneers, etc, etc, hold so proudly to their mascots....I wonder if they "think" they are what their mascots are....I wonder if they put as much devotion into it, or if its just here.

I wonder about the people who say they will be "Sioux forever" and wear Sioux across their ass and live and die by Sioux wins and loses, I wonder if they even know how stupid they look impersonating a people that they know nothing about. I wonder.

Kracker,

Are you really under the impression that UND's use of the Fighting Sioux name makes anyone think they are Sioux?? Where did you get that idea? UND athletes and fans are not impersonating Native Americans. That is where I think the cultural disconect seems to be. You make this issue so much more than it is. UND has never tried to become Sioux Indians or impersonate them. UND named their athletic teams the Fighting Sioux about 70 years ago with permission from your ancestors. You should be educated enough to know that is all it was. No more and no less. Because of that, UND probably has more programs for Native American students and is more visable and has brought publicity to the name but it is up to you to bring honor to your people. It isn't UND's responsibility anymore than any other culture.

UND's athletes, the UND logo and the fans are all about UND, not about you or your people. Maybe if you figured that out, you would be smart enough to see it has nothing to do with all of your woes and troubles. That is also why you shouldn't expect everything to get better because of the Fighting Sioux name. If you and your pals are as tough as you think you are, then you will prevail. You should prevail over the plight of your peoples important issues. This shouldn't be one of them. In the meantime you could all have a lot of fun with the University, Sioux athletics, and everything good about this association and the college experience.

If some jerk calls you a prairie nigger kick his butt. If you need help call me or 90% of Sioux fans who will stand by you and cover your butt. (I wouldn't call the professors or activists who might pee their pants at the thought of actually getting their hands dirty or venturing out of their circle of weirdos.

Kracker, it amazes me that an educated man, with enough gumption to have served in the military, is too shortsighted to see the irrelevance of this whole thing to your culture and your people. Is it important enough to raise your kids to hate or walk through life being defensive or angry? I would think you would be enough of a man to handle the few times you face the incidences of ignorance with the pride and dignity of your ancestors. It doesn't have to be such an "us vs them" issue and certainly doesn't need to be culture vs culture. I firmly believe that is a big part of your misunderstanding. Most people don't define themselves by culture or race. When others make ignorant remarks or comments it isnt' the end of the world.

I don't think people on this board are hiding or cowards. Why does everything have to be such a confrontation? Where do yo want me to meet you? As Doc Halliday said to Ringo, "Ah'll be your huckleberery". What would that accomplish? Do you want to take me to the reservation? I am on a reservation frequently and maybe as much or more than you are when you are in school. I think I have read all of what you don't like. Tell us what do you like about UND. What besides dropping the Sioux name should UND do for you or Native Americans. I think that is what is more improtant than the Sioux name and should be where we focus our efforts for you and your people. Think about it big fella.

By the way, if you tried to take away Bucky Badger, The Fighting Irish, Goldy Gopher, I bet you my next paycheck against a donut you would get a very spirited response at least similar, if not bigger, than what you see at UND.

[Siouxman]

As for your comments, if you truly had "honor, pride, devotion, wisdom, spiritual strength" and you didn't preach "hate, intolerance, and superiority" then this name issue wouldn't even be an issue because you would have seen long ago that the people who you claim to honor doesn't want you to honor them anymore.

I wonder about the people who say they will be "Sioux forever" and wear Sioux across their ass and live and die by Sioux wins and loses, I wonder if they even know how stupid they look impersonating a people that they know nothing about. I wonder.

Gee, just last Saturday night on the shuttle bus to the arena I sat behind two Native American women (appeared to be in their 20's) who were fully decked out in Sioux jerseys, with the logo. They did not appear to be intimidated, no one accosted them or called them names, and they just appeared to be enjoying themselves. I didn't even see them looking around thinking someone was going to be hostile and abusive to them. Of course, I did not think to check their tribal ID's to find out if they were reservation registered Sioux tribal members. But it appears obvious from GK's remarks that these two women were totally clueless, stupid, and not worthy of being tribal members.