Understanding UND's anger

[PCM]

I talked to a long-time friend of mine who's a North Dakota native, a UND alumnus and an avid Fighting Sioux fan who lives in the Twin Cities. He'd read yesterday's article on the Sioux name controversy in USA Today and called me to discuss it.

He told me that he didn't think there was any point in UND taking the NCAA to court. He thought that if UND couldn't make a deal with the tribes to continue using the Sioux name, then the name should be changed.

As a result of that conversation, I realize that there's something of a disconnect between those of us who live in Grand Forks and work for UND and some of those who don't. [url="http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=104254

Edited September 29, 2005 by PCM

[U2Bad1]

Many people were gladly willing to escort kupchella to the door if he had been hired by another university, but in my opinion he has completely redeemed himself by standing up for UND's nickname when he could have just rolled over on the issue.

[Taz Boy]

This is exactly what gets me emotionally involved with the issue. To those who are not at all connected with UND, Grand Forks, or North Dakota, they see this as "What's the big deal? Just drop the name." But, in doing so, UND then admits guilt to these ridiculous charges of hostility, abuse, and racism. In particular, it admits that all of us who love the Fighting Sioux do so in a manner that is outright hostile and abusive to our Native American residents. This cannot go unchallenged. And, for that I applaud Kupchella's resolve.

Even more chilling to me is the following from David Gipp, president of the United Tribes Technical College in Bismarck, I read in this ESPN article...

David Gipp, president of the United Tribes Technical College in Bismarck, called the decision "the right thing, the correct thing, the ethical and the moral thing to do."

The university should now take the step of getting rid of the nickname and logo entirely, Gipp said in a telephone interview.

"It allows the University of North Dakota to begin to make the transition that is necessary," he said. "This is something that begins to set the road straight ... This begins to right the wrongs of history."

So, ultimately it comes down to Cosmic Justice. The NCAA is now in the business of reparations for events centuries ago. Absolutely ridiculous.

As uncomfortable as I feel knowing a lawsuit can only hurt UND's image, I think it must be done. The name-changers have now taken this from a petty debate of name usage and turned it into a mandate that the minority must rule unconditionally.

There was so much opportunity to work with the tribes to resolve this locally. More money, educational programs, and student awareness... perhaps even dropping the "Fighting" portion of the name. But, no, none of this is acceptable. The minority crowd thinks that "being heard" or "respecting their opinions" means they get their way; absolutely, without question.

To any other opposing fans getting a kick out of this, rest assured, it will one day come to you. All freedom loving folks should be cheering on UND in this matter.

Take it to court, Charles. And win.

taz

[Sioux-cia]

I talked to a long-time friend of mine who's a North Dakota native, a UND alumnus and an avid Fighting Sioux fan who lives in the Twin Cities. He'd read yesterday's article on the Sioux name controversy in USA Today and called me to discuss it.

He told me that he didn't think there was any point in UND taking the NCAA to court. He thought that if UND couldn't make a deal with the tribes to continue using the Sioux name, then the name should be changed.

As a result of that conversation, I realize that there's something of a disconnect between those of us who live in Grand Forks and work for UND and some of those who don't. [url="http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=104254

[dagies]

I talked to a long-time friend of mine who's a North Dakota native, a UND alumnus and an avid Fighting Sioux fan who lives in the Twin Cities. He'd read yesterday's article on the Sioux name controversy in USA Today and called me to discuss it.

He told me that he didn't think there was any point in UND taking the NCAA to court. He thought that if UND couldn't make a deal with the tribes to continue using the Sioux name, then the name should be changed.

As a result of that conversation, I realize that there's something of a disconnect between those of us who live in Grand Forks and work for UND and some of those who don't. [url="http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=104254

[HockeyMom]

It's so easy to be standing on the outside and saying, "just change the name". It's easy to say something like that when you really don't care.

As for me.....you can't help what you love and there are a lot of people out there who love the Fighting Sioux.

It is an emotional thing for me. It's an emotional thing for all the Sioux fans that I know.

It does disappoint me that the NCAA thinks the Seminoles, Chippewa, Utes, and Aztecs are not hostile and abusive, but the Sioux are.

The University of North Dakota should fight this until ALL remedies are fully exhausted. I expect nothing less.

[SIouxNY]

The University of North Dakota should fight this until ALL remedies are fully exhausted.  I expect nothing less.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're not alone, Mom.

The absolutism of the NameChangers has taken this, over a number of years, from a reasonable conversation to precisely the environment the NC$$ ruling is trying to discourage.

It is time that UND, the City of Grand Forks, the great State of North Dakota, and all those whose hearts reside anywhere between the Red River and the Teddy Roosevelt National Park, stand together and decry the misrepresentation being forced upon us by those who have no interest in those freedoms that we hold dear and true! - OK, I was chanelling William Wallace for a minute there - sorry

I said it yesterday, and I say it again - the Lawyers are ready; CUT 'EM LOOSE!

[LB#11]

I talked to a long-time friend of mine who's a North Dakota native, a UND alumnus and an avid Fighting Sioux fan who lives in the Twin Cities. He'd read yesterday's article on the Sioux name controversy in USA Today and called me to discuss it.

He told me that he didn't think there was any point in UND taking the NCAA to court. He thought that if UND couldn't make a deal with the tribes to continue using the Sioux name, then the name should be changed.

As a result of that conversation, I realize that there's something of a disconnect between those of us who live in Grand Forks and work for UND and some of those who don't. [url="http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=104254

[Kermit]

As usual, PCM presents a well-reasoned argument to which I can add little, except..

It's so easy to be standing on the outside and saying, "just change the name".  It's easy to say something like that when you really don't care.

As for me.....you can't help what you love and there are a lot of people out there who love the Fighting Sioux.

It is an emotional thing for me.  It's an emotional thing for all the Sioux fans that I know. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes! To many of us, "The Fighting Sioux" is akin to a family name. There is a tremendous amount of pride and love that binds those who have worn the colors, and those who have cheered for them.

[sagard]

So what is going to happen if the NCAA comes up with a statement like the following:

"At this time the NCAA has found no instances at UND where the use of the "Fighting Sioux" nickname was creating a hostile or abusive environment. However, UND will remain on the list of colleges and universities subject to restrictions on the use of Native American mascots, names and imagery at NCAA championships. This is due to a lack of unamimous support from the five federally recognized tribes with a presence in the state."

[PCM]

So what is going to happen if the NCAA comes up with a statement like the following:

"At this time the NCAA has found no instances at UND where the use of the "Fighting Sioux" nickname was creating a hostile or abusive environment.  However, UND will remain on the list of colleges and universities subject to restrictions on the use of Native American mascots, names and imagery at NCAA championships.  This is due to a lack of unamimous support from the five federally recognized tribes with a presence in the state."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think many of us would tear our hair out because it would make absolutely no sense. It would mean that the NCAA has once again shifted the goal posts for the express purpose of singling out UND. It would also probably mean that prominent attorneys were lining up to represent the university.

[sagard]

I think many of us would tear our hair out because it would make absolutely no sense. It would mean that the NCAA has once again shifted the goal posts for the express purpose of singling out UND. It would also probably mean that prominent attorneys were lining up to represent the university.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I realize that, but the NCAA has proven time and again they are willing change the rules as they see fit.

Is the the fight from the UND Administration coming because it was unfairly labelled "hostile and abusive" or is because they want to keep the name?

The NCAA has left the door open for one last statement on the issue when UND gets it's last appeal.

[PCM]

I realize that, but the NCAA has proven time and again they are willing change the rules as they see fit.

[The Sicatoka]

It would also probably mean that prominent attorneys were lining up to represent the university.

You mean like the Chief Judge, U.S. Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces?

There are only nine better judicial chairs in the land.

[Sioux-cia]

[The Sicatoka]

"Hostile and abusive" proven untrue --> Slander.

Slander --> Damages.

Damages -->

[Sioux-cia]

[#1siouxfan22]

McFeely has never had anything good to say about UND or hockey in general.

[Sioux-cia]

[GrahamKracker]

I talked to a long-time friend of mine who's a North Dakota native, a UND alumnus and an avid Fighting Sioux fan who lives in the Twin Cities. He'd read yesterday's article on the Sioux name controversy in USA Today and called me to discuss it.

He told me that he didn't think there was any point in UND taking the NCAA to court. He thought that if UND couldn't make a deal with the tribes to continue using the Sioux name, then the name should be changed.

As a result of that conversation, I realize that there's something of a disconnect between those of us who live in Grand Forks and work for UND and some of those who don't. [url="http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=104254

[cheppi]

[PCM]

Its good to see at least some of your friends have common sense.

My friend has a great deal of respect for my opinion on this issue. He undertands that I know far more about it than he does. By the time we finished our conversation, he understood my point of view.

Did I change his mind? I don't know because I didn't ask him. Regardless, we're still friends because we can agree to disagree on matters of opinion.

Go ahead and fight it.  We're ready, too.  What's comforting is knowing that my opinion is shared by MANY, MANY of my fellow SIOUX people.  You can either change it, or keep fighting.  But whatever happens, we are moving forward with this.

I have no illusions that anything that happens now or in the future will ever change your mind on this issue. You have made this abundantly clear ever since you joined this board and began repeating the same points over and over and over again like a deaf, brainwashed parrot with tunnel vision.

[JJM]

I'm deeply attached to the Fighting Sioux nickname and hope that common sense will eventually prevail on this issue. Neither side stands to gain anything positive by getting rid of the nickname. However, in the event that we have no other choice, does anyone have any idea what recourse the NCAA could possibly have if UND opted to drop Fighting Sioux as the official nickname of the school but not adopt a replacement nickname? It would seem to me that UND could rightfully turn over the licensing rights to the current Sioux logos to the Alumni foundation (or similar), and Sioux attire could continue to be manufactured without any consequence. The athletic teams would have to resort to the ND logo on their uniforms, but I wouldn't think the NCAA could stop the fans from both wearing Sioux attire to the games and cheering for the Sioux while they are there. We do have a right to free speech after all. I can almost guarantee there'd be 10,000 Sioux logos in Engelstad Arena once the fans are in the door, even if the 4000 logos affixed to the arena are replaced. The University doesn't have to officially endorse the nickname, but free speech can ensure it survives. Who knows, maybe after enough time has gone by we'll all feel a little less attached to the name so that the idea of taking on something else will eventually be palatable. Not counting on that happening in my lifetime though...

[Blackheart]

I'm deeply attached to the Fighting Sioux nickname and hope that common sense will eventually prevail on this issue.  Neither side stands to gain anything positive by getting rid of the nickname.  However, in the event that we have no other choice, does anyone have any idea what recourse the NCAA could possibly have if UND opted to drop Fighting Sioux as the official nickname of the school but not adopt a replacement nickname?  It would seem to me that UND could rightfully turn over the licensing rights to the current Sioux logos to the Alumni foundation (or similar), and Sioux attire could continue to be manufactured without any consequence.  The athletic teams would have to resort to the ND logo on their uniforms, but I wouldn't think the NCAA could stop the fans from both wearing Sioux attire to the games and cheering for the Sioux while they are there.  We do have a right to free speech after all.  I can almost guarantee there'd be 10,000 Sioux logos in Engelstad Arena once the fans are in the door, even if the 4000 logos affixed to the arena are replaced.  The University doesn't have to officially endorse the nickname, but free speech can ensure it survives.  Who knows, maybe after enough time has gone by we'll all feel a little less attached to the name so that the idea of taking on something else will eventually be palatable.  Not counting on that happening in my lifetime though...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If it gets to the point where we can't call ourselves the Fighting Sioux, just drop the nickname and keep the logo...we know who we are, no matter what the liberal bleeding heart whiners have to say...maybe we can dick the NCAA out of some licensing fees somehow as well...NCAA---FU!!

[UND83]

no matter what the liberal bleeding heart whiners  have to say...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm attached to the Sioux name too but let's not make this a liberal/conservative issue, because it isn't. 95% of ND believes the name is ok, 63% voted for Bush in 2004, where is the other 32% support of the name coming from?

Actually, it could be construed that the conservatives caused the problem if you consider the following:

Most people blame the NCAA for this ruling: so

NC$$ = big business

Republicans (Conservatives) = big business

thus: NC$$ = Conservatives

There, its all the right wings fault