Spirit Lake withdraws support for logo

[Brent_Bobyck]

QUOTE(Brent_Bobyck @ Aug 12 2005, 08:55 AM)

Taken from a website against the nickname recommended by Graham Kracker

"Why is the use of American Indian people as mascots and symbols offensive?

The continued use of American Indian people as mascots, logos, and symbols is wrong. It denies a race of people the basic right of respect. By tolerating the use of demeaning stereotypes, we desensitize and objectify people. When using a race of people as nothing more than mascots and symbols, we are teaching the next generation of non-Indian children that it is okay to participate in culturally abusive behavior."

GrahamKracker,

Where is the stereotype in UND using this name? How is your basic right of respect being denied? Please explain.

I believe that UND choosing to use the name "fighting sioux" goes far beyond using it "for nothing more than mascots and symbols" IMO, if our nickname was all about those things, why change the Flickertails name? Please explain.

Also, I could not find anything on that website that explaining the Sioux Falls, etc question I asked above. Could you please explain these things to me. Thanks.

Again, no disrespect. I am simply trying to see your viewpoint and that website does not answer my questions.

The Sioux Falls question is why is it ok to have a town called Sioux Falls and Sioux City & Lakota? Why is it ok to have states named North Dakota & South Dakota? Why is it just Universities?

Graham Kracker,

Since you haven't responded to any of my questions, and you have posted elsewhere in the forums, should I assume you don't have the answers to my questions? Or perhaps don't want to answer?

It makes it hard to find you credible when you do not respond to simple questions

GrahamKracker,

Still Waiting............

[HockeyMom]

GrahamKracker,

Still Waiting............

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*hands you a Snicker's Bar* You're going to be waiting a long time.

If he knows he can't answer a question, he leaves and when he comes back just ignores it as if it was never asked.

[crosby_87]

I guess in the first place I was never aware that there is a "right of respect". I've never seen a document that says a person has the right to be respected. I consider respect a privelige that must be earned. Thats just me though i guess

[GrahamKracker]

That's because it's okay for him to be racist.

The Man is evil.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You don't even know me HockeyMom

[crosby_87]

You don't even know me HockeyMom

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

K so if she doesnt know you, how can you know her, therefore how can you say "hockeymomwhoteachersherchildrenracism"? Nice one GrahamKracker.

[GrahamKracker]

[GrahamKracker]

The Sioux Falls question is why is it ok to have a town called Sioux Falls and Sioux City & Lakota? Why is it ok to have states named North Dakota & South Dakota? Why is it just Universities?

GrahamKracker,

Still Waiting............

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First of all, unlike "others" that don't have a life, I am busy raising a famiy and can't be in here 24/7. As for your question, before I answer, WHATEVER I say will never be good enough for you because you are not one who is willing to change. That's why we have institutions like the NCAA who have to make you change.

As for Sioux Falls. Sioux Falls was named because that was the name of the water falls in that city. It wasn't because the people said "you know, we should name ourselves Sioux _______ because then we would be good exterminators of the bison, or we could rhyme easier"......no, their name was a part of History.

UND's past is not History.....but it is "His"story...by that I mean "Ralphstory". We don't have a problem w/ the names of the towns. But we do have a problem w/ UND. It changed its name to the FS for all the wrong reasons, and now they need to find another logo to worship.

I don't know if that answers your question, because I really don't know what you're trying to get out of me.

[MafiaMan]

First of all, unlike "others" that don't have a life, I am busy raising a famiy and can't be in here 24/7. As for your question, before I answer, WHATEVER I say will never be good enough for you because you are not one who is willing to change. That's why we have institutions like the NCAA who have to make you change.

As for Sioux Falls. Sioux Falls was named because that was the name of the water falls in that city. It wasn't because the people said "you know, we should name ourselves Sioux _______ because then we would be good exterminators of the bison, or we could rhyme easier"......no, their name was a part of History.

UND's past is not History.....but it is "His"story...by that I mean "Ralphstory". We don't have a problem w/ the names of the towns. But we do have a problem w/ UND. It changed its name to the FS for all the wrong reasons, and now they need to find another logo to worship.

I don't know if that answers your question, because I really don't know what you're trying to get out of me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

GK,

I still have one question for you. Why would Warriors, Sioux, or Indians be ok names for schools made up predominantly of American Indians while it is considered racist for an institution like North Dakota?

[kr]

Here's another vote for GK to explain why warrior (ie: http://www.srcs.k12.nd.us/ ) , Sioux and/or Indians are/is acceptable in some situations but not in others.

[Diggler]

GK will say Standing Rock has the right to self-portrayal, so they can be the Warriors if they so chose. UND does not have the right to portray themselves as the Sioux though, as they are not.

[HockeyMom]

You don't even know me HockeyMom

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know you only by what you say on these boards.

[Goon]

[Goon]

You know Kracker, for someone who decries racism, you sure play pretty fast and loose with epithets.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, its ok for minorities to throw them around all of the time without consequences.

[HockeyMom]

Ralph Engelstad is not UND. Ralph Engelstad happens to have been a person who went to UND, worked hard and made a very good life for himself, and his family. After he did that, he turned around and remembered where he came from and donated, not just once, but several times to the University.

I'm proud to say that I am part of the UND community, and I hope that one day I can also turn around and give to the institution that helped me get my start.

[HockeyMom]

I know you only by what you say on these boards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And by the way......."you don't even know me" is a good playground response for someone who has no other comeback.

Congratulations.

[Goon]

[bincitysioux]

GK will say Standing Rock has the right to self-portrayal, so they can be the Warriors if they so chose.  UND does not have the right to portray themselves as the Sioux though, as they are not.

Does UND, the University of North DAKOTA, not represent the state of North DAKOTA? Our state was named North DAKOTA in part because it was once known as the DAKOTA Territory. I believe it was named the DAKOTA Territory because of the presence of one of the predominate Native American tribes that inhabited the region. Does the most prominent and visible University in the state of North DAKOTA not have the right to self-portrayal?

[Brent_Bobyck]

First of all, unlike "others" that don't have a life, I am busy raising a famiy and can't be in here 24/7.

I realize that you do have other things going on other than this message board, as does everyone. I asked you those questions on Aug 12. I didn't get a reply until today. You didn't have time to answer my questions in that amount of time? Or were you dodging the issue?

As for your question, before I answer, WHATEVER I say will never be good enough for you because you are not one who is willing to change.  That's why we have institutions like the NCAA who have to make you change.

YOU have institutions like the NCAA? Are they the Political Correctness Police? Several people, including the well respected governors of North Dakota and Florida, have come out and said the NCAA has overstepped their boundries. FSU, CMU & Utah were not made to change their name. The NCAA is not as powerful as you think.

As for Sioux Falls.  Sioux Falls was named because that was the name of the water falls in that city.  It wasn't because the people said "you know, we should name ourselves Sioux _______ because then we would be good exterminators of the bison, or we could rhyme easier"......no, their name was a part of History.

OK, but what about North Dakota, South Dakota, Lakota, Sioux City, etc?

UND's past is not History.....but it is "His"story...by that I mean "Ralphstory".  We don't have a problem w/ the names of the towns.  But we do have a problem w/ UND.  It changed its name to the FS for all the wrong reasons, and now they need to find another logo to worship.

I never mentioned Ralph's name. Why is he brought into the conversation?

I don't know if that answers your question, because I really don't know what you're trying to get out of me.

I am not trying to get anything out of you except for the answers of my questions. They are in my previous post on this thread. They are plain and simple. And you have, yet again, dodged answering them. I would love to hear your answer to the questions without getting defensive and not pulling out the "Ralph card." I am simply trying to have a debate about the issue at hand, not an argument.

[Mad Man]

I never mentioned Ralph's name. Why is he brought into the conversation?

Isn't it obvious, UND adopted the Sioux name in October of 1930. Ralph pulled alot of strings to get the name changed. He was a pretty powerful well connected nine month old.

[GrahamKracker]

[SiouxMeNow]

wow! THAT WAS A MOUTHFUL!

I'm not going to address this entire post - just one comment...the VIKINGS pillaged as a "career"

CRAP!! If only they'd known they could have worked at Lena's LEFSE factory for minimum wage....what where they thinking??

I guess they did what they thought was best for themselves at the time...

Why are you going to college GK? To better yourself? Congrats! Welcome to the REAL WORLD!

Life is a struggle...and NO ONE is "entitled" to improvement without working for it. I did it...and now I fight discrimination as a "white male" in the workplace - with quotas - equal opportunity laws et al....If you're a minority with a college degree - I'd GLADLY trade places with you right now for a job! - but I'm sure you're going back to help your "people" after you graduate...right?

...eh...not so much

[Brent_Bobyck]

[GrahamKracker]

[CVCL]

Actually, a more constructive top ten would be reasons behind changing the name. Or at least a top three or so. I can't recall many of those points being brought up AND justified.

[BigGame]

but this would be like a NAZI designing a logo for the JEWS...and bragging about how it honors them, not likely

Is this guy really this stupid?

NA's do not go to school for free. Maybe at a college somewhere in MN, but it'll be a cold day in hell before Conservative ND gives the people it has oppressed for the last 150 years a free education.

But it should be free, like everything else in life right. I don't know what you think your entitled to but the government hasn't given me anything and likely will not give me anything ever. The government doesn't owe people anything, if people want a better life they have to stand up, work hard, and take it for themselves. The opportunities are everywhere.

selling tshirts w/ SIOUX f*^*ing buffalo now, are they?

Does the University sell shirts like that?

Yeah, so what? The NA's make up over 7% of this state, yet only 4% attend here,

These numbers have already been disputed by some far more intelligent than you. But even if your numbers were correct, UND and the state can't force people to get a college education, people make their own path in life.

Go to a reservation, preferably a Sioux reservation, and ask ANY of the elders what HONOR is, and how it is performed amongst the people, and you will soon understand that your definition of HONOR and the definition of HONOR amongst the Lakota is vastly different.....oh wait, you'll have to step outside of your "I'll call myself SIOUX but won't talk to one" mentality to do this, but don't worry, we don't bite, unless you bite first.

Every one of these "excuses" I have went into depth on, explained each, and you know what, you still think your right on the issue.....pity pity pity.

I see you are back to speaking for everyone again. Are you some type of elected official?