Media Stories on the Sioux Name

[Goon]

As far as your comment about not getting into the Summit, if UND applies soon the chances of not getting into the league are very small. Kelley said that he had been assured by several school Presidents that it wouldn't be a problem. And the interim President at NDSU has gone on record that he would push for UND. If the application isn't processed in the next 30-90 days (just a guess, it might be less than that) it is probably a crapshoot. No one that is speaking seems to know what the Summit League plan is for sure. They have said that they would like 12 teams so they can operate in divisions to save travel expense. The last plan that was discussed was to select those schools this spring and have them become official members on July 1, 2011. If they really want to follow that time line they will start the process soon, which is why UND would need to make an application. If that 2011 date isn't set in stone then UND could have some wiggle room. According to the information from Mr. Faison, the Summit League office would not give an official statement on the subject, but his impression was that UND needed to move on the application process which means the Summit is going to add schools during the next few months. So if UND waits too long, there probably is a decent chance that they don't get in now or in the next few years.

So in essence this is a shake down by the NCAA and the Summit League, this is how it appears to me... I have been told by a person close to this subject and in the know that the only result the Summit wants to see is the name changed.

[82SiouxGuy]

So in essence this is a shake down by the NCAA and the Summit League, this is how it appears to me... I have been told by a person close to this subject and in the know that the only result the Summit wants to see is the name changed.

I don't know if the person you talked with is correct or not. It is possible that the Summit (or some faction of the league) doesn't like the name.

But it is also possible that they have some legitimate reasons for their stance. I have gone over some of those in the past. The big question is when they want to add teams to the league. If their time line is flexible and they won't say anything about it, then they probably have ulterior motives. If they set up a time line a year or more ago that includes having 12 teams on July 1, 2011, then they probably have a legitimate reason to keep that schedule. That schedule would mean that they have to name the teams before July 1, 2010, and would have to start vetting applicants soon so they can complete reviews and site visits. And no matter what some people think, trying to avoid any bad public relations is a legitimate reason for their public stance on the nickname. It probably could have been handled much better, but it is also important for UND to know the truth. It would have been a real shame for UND to apply to the league, not get in, and then find out that the reason was because of issues with the name.

But I was serious about my question, and I wasn't trying to start an argument. What could the SBoHE have done during the past 2+ years to save the nickname that they didn't do? And what could they still do now that isn't being done?

[Chewey]

I don't know if the person you talked with is correct or not. It is possible that the Summit (or some faction of the league) doesn't like the name.

But it is also possible that they have some legitimate reasons for their stance. I have gone over some of those in the past. The big question is when they want to add teams to the league. If their time line is flexible and they won't say anything about it, then they probably have ulterior motives. If they set up a time line a year or more ago that includes having 12 teams on July 1, 2011, then they probably have a legitimate reason to keep that schedule. That schedule would mean that they have to name the teams before July 1, 2010, and would have to start vetting applicants soon so they can complete reviews and site visits. And no matter what some people think, trying to avoid any bad public relations is a legitimate reason for their public stance on the nickname. It probably could have been handled much better, but it is also important for UND to know the truth. It would have been a real shame for UND to apply to the league, not get in, and then find out that the reason was because of issues with the name.

But I was serious about my question, and I wasn't trying to start an argument. What could the SBoHE have done during the past 2+ years to save the nickname that they didn't do? And what could they still do now that isn't being done?

They should not have dictated stupid deadlines or mandated 30 year agreements. They should have made a true and vocal commitment to the nickname and should have indicated that they were going to work to retain the nickname for the time being with tribal wide votes, as per SL. They should have told Goetz, Kelley, et all that the U nickname is the Fighting Sioux and that retaining that nickname was/is the preferred course and they should have directed them to work in that direction. The SBoHE came across as imperious right from the beginning. The SBoHE should not have "settled" the lawsuit. I could go on. They should understand that this pisses off the major financial backers of the university, the alumni and the tax payers. The university professors/administrators and the SBoHE are overly concerned by a few incessant whiners but are not concerned about the financial fall out incurred as a result off angry alumni. I can understand the professors/administrators who are ideology before financial backing because they get their checks from the taxpayers, regardless. The SBoHE and other related parties are supposed to be outside in the real world and are supposed to understand real time issues and the consequences that are attached. It's all been an expedient Summit smoke screen for the last year or so and the SBoHE has gotten some very bad advice. I don't know if it's been from Seaworth or who else but the advice it has been receiving on how to handle this has been nothing but God-awful.

The SBoHE needs to 1.) speak with SR and apologize for how imperious it came off; 2.) address SR as equals and let Murphy know once again how important the nickname is for 98% of the UND community and, apparently, at least 70% of the SL and, in all likelihood, the SR; 3.) Let them know, again, that they will be keeping the nickname until 11/30/10 and ask them to consider initiating a referendum process to gauge the input of SR tribe. Here's what they've essentially said: A. Our state's flag ship university wants to keep your name as its name; B. We're giving you until "X", and not one minute later, to tell your people to tell us that we can keep your name or you can shove off. C. If you don't do a referendum by "X" we're going to tell everyone that you did not do anything by our arbitrary deadline to let us keep your name as our name and so you will be blamed for it. Now, this is a real winning strategy to employ if you really want to keep the nickname. They may as well have had the anti-nicknamers be in charge of the whole thing. Perhaps Seaworth is an anti-nicknamer. Doing 1-3 above will be the only way the SBoHE and the university generally can save some face with the alumni. There are whiners everywhere and they can be tolerated and they should be actively opposed and exposed for their own racism. The last thing anyone should do is cave to them. The last thing anyone should do is risk angering 98% of one's financial backers. Need I go on? One can only hope that the financial meltdown will significantly thin some of the rank and file at UND and NDSU. It's happening in MN and you should hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth of all the people in areas where oxen are being gored. Now, instead of carping about diversity some people will actually have to interview for jobs and then, probably, accuse potential bosses of being "racist" when they're not hired.

Times have been too good such that people have developed a conceit to argue about this garbage. This sort of thing has come about because people have not had any real issues to occupy their time. An assault on the pocket-book can be very sobering.

[82SiouxGuy]

They should not have dictated stupid deadlines or mandated 30 year agreements. They should have made a true and vocal commitment to the nickname and should have indicated that they were going to work to retain the nickname for the time being with tribal wide votes, as per SL. They should have told Goetz, Kelley, et all that the U nickname is the Fighting Sioux and that retaining that nickname was/is the preferred course and they should have directed them to work in that direction. The SBoHE came across as imperious right from the beginning. The SBoHE should not have "settled" the lawsuit. I could go on. They should understand that this pisses off the major financial backers of the university, the alumni and the tax payers. The university professors/administrators and the SBoHE are overly concerned by a few incessant whiners but are not concerned about the financial fall out incurred as a result off angry alumni. I can understand the professors/administrators who are ideology before financial backing because they get their checks from the taxpayers, regardless. The SBoHE and other related parties are supposed to be outside in the real world and are supposed to understand real time issues and the consequences that are attached. It's all been an expedient Summit smoke screen for the last year or so and the SBoHE has gotten some very bad advice. I don't know if it's been from Seaworth or who else but the advice it has been receiving on how to handle this has been nothing but God-awful.

The SBoHE needs to 1.) speak with SR and apologize for how imperious it came off; 2.) address SR as equals and let Murphy know once again how important the nickname is for 98% of the UND community and, apparently, at least 70% of the SL and, in all likelihood, the SR; 3.) Let them know, again, that they will be keeping the nickname until 11/30/10 and ask them to consider initiating a referendum process to gauge the input of SR tribe. Here's what they've essentially said: A. Our state's flag ship university wants to keep your name as its name; B. We're giving you until "X", and not one minute later, to tell your people to tell us that we can keep your name or you can shove off. C. If you don't do a referendum by "X" we're going to tell everyone that you did not do anything by our arbitrary deadline to let us keep your name as our name and so you will be blamed for it. Now, this is a real winning strategy to employ if you really want to keep the nickname. They may as well have had the anti-nicknamers be in charge of the whole thing. Perhaps Seaworth is an anti-nicknamer. Doing 1-3 above will be the only way the SBoHE and the university generally can save some face with the alumni. There are whiners everywhere and they can be tolerated and they should be actively opposed and exposed for their own racism. The last thing anyone should do is cave to them. The last thing anyone should do is risk angering 98% of one's financial backers. Need I go on? They've tried to handle it "politically" and "expediently" and it will only blow up on them. One can only hope that the financial meltdown will significantly thin some of the rank and file at UND and NDSU. It's happening in MN and you should hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth of all the people in areas where oxen are being gored. Now, instead of carping about diversity some people will actually have to interview for jobs and then, probably, accuse potential bosses of being "racist" when they're not hired.

At least someone gave an answer. I don't agree with all of it, but I agree with some of it. The way they set a deadline was handled poorly. But I believe that they needed to set a deadline in part because of the Summit, but even more important to create a sense of urgency. They needed to try to get something moving at Standing Rock. If they didn't get something moving it would have definitely drug on until the bitter end and still probably wouldn't get settled. I still maintain that the 30 year stipulation was not set in stone. Because of the clause that said the name would have to be changed if the tribes changed their minds, they needed some assurance that the name would be safe for a while. I believe they went with 30 years to start a negotiation and would be willing to discuss other options.

You're right that it appears they didn't do enough right after the settlement. They should have been more aggressive in approaching the tribes. I don't know if it would have made a difference or not in getting results, but it would have made nickname supporters feel better about the approach. But I am convinced that the settlement was the best option they had at the time. They probably would have won the lawsuit because the NCAA did not follow it's bylaws in passing the rule against Native American nicknames, but the NCAA had already made plans to change the bylaws to make it legal to do what they did. That bylaw change passed by a wide margin shortly after the settlement. So even if UND had won the lawsuit, the NCAA would have turned around and made the exact same ruling within weeks and UND would have been in the same amount of trouble. The settlement bought time, got rid of the hostile and abusive tag and probably saved money on potential changes at facilities like the Ralph.

I am pretty sure that the SBoHE and the UND administration are very aware of potential financial ramifications. I don't think that they will be as severe as you think they will. The vast majority of UND supporters are in favor of the nickname, and a majority of taxpayers in North Dakota are in favor of it. But not all of them are nearly as fanatical as others. Many people have grown tired of the hassles and will not be overly upset if a change has to be made. Others have accepted that getting into an auto bid conference is more important than continuing to fight about the name. And some people, maybe a majority of North Dakota taxpayers, don't have that much invested in the name so it doesn't affect them either way. There will be donors that refuse to ever give money again because of this issue. There will be donors that quit giving for a while and then return. There will be donors that decrease their giving, either for a while or permanently. And there will be donors that continue to give as they have or maybe even increase their giving. I don't numbers for the categories. I know that 98% of the donors won't fall into the quit giving category. And I would guess that the SBoHE and UND administration through the Alumni Foundation have a pretty good idea where those numbers will actually fall.

I am not sure whether your ideas for working with Standing Rock would make a difference or not. Their leadership is much more entrenched in the nickname opponent category than Spirit Lake ever was. Standing Rock has had a more militant attitude going all the way back to when Sitting Bull was alive. From some comments made last fall I don't think they consider the SBoHE their equal, they see the Governor or possibly the Congressional delegations as the closest to equal in the state so I don't know if they would work with the SB at all, in the past or in the future. And time is an enemy to the process even if you disregard the Summit League issue. The process moves slowly on most reservations even when they are motivated. They aren't motivated. Your plan would definitely help save face with many alumni, but I don't know if it would result in anything other than making people feel better.

The SBoHE and the UND administration have more inside information than any of us making comments on this board. They should know more about what was actually done and what wasn't, because I'm sure that not all efforts were made public. They should all have a better grasp on the wide range of issues that will be affected by a potential name change, and should be able to see the big picture better than we do. And they have the power to make the decision. They have made mistakes along the way, but they were also forced into many of those situations by the NCAA. I believe that they are trying to do what they believe is in the best interests of the University of North Dakota. So I will continue to support the University whether the name is changed or not.

[Blackburn87]

Chewey's right on all points. It's not too late, and maybe no amount of humility on behalf of the SBHE would change anything, but a different approach would likely have produced different results. I still believe that the Sioux name is worth saving, but I can hear how many people are weary of the fight and the drama. There will be much regret if the name is gone; there will be little regret if we keep it.

If UND is such a hostile environment for the PC crowd such as Leigh Jeannotte and other UND faculty, I've often wondered what made him stay all the years? I mean, to go through the trauma seeing students in Fighting Sioux t-shirts day in and day out must be terrible... not to mention how tiring it is to play the professional a$$ for the cameras and the media all the time.

[MplsBison]

That's not my argument at all really, but I'm done trying to explain it to you.

At this point, the decision has already been made. All that's left is a bunch of political posturing for the fall out.

Your argument is that the Summit could just admit UND now and by the time they are officially in the league the nickname will be resolved one way or another, is it not?

I've given you the correct reason why this argument is false.

You don't have to accept it, but I have given it to you.

[JackJD]

I suppose some opposed to the Fighting Sioux name are hung up on trying to be politically correct as some posters contend. But I think there are a lot of people who, while not paying great attention to the debate, do not understand all the nastiness expressed by many on the topic. The unresolved nastiness-- seems to be a good enough reason for some Summit League followers to hope that UND doesn't get an invite into the Summit League until UND can put this issue in the past. (Notice I do not say dump or retain the name -- I really could not care less about the name.)

I just read the most recent three pages of posts in this thread. If UND can't figure it out -- why should the rest of the Summit League risk having to deal with your baggage? I'm all for UND joining the Summit League WITHOUT the baggage. I don't care how UND addresses the baggage--either work it out with the Tribe(s) or just dump the name--just leave the baggage behind. And then: welcome aboard.

Serious question: I'm not a hockey fan but I wonder how much of the fight over whether to retain the name is influenced by hockey supporters. Would the discussion be different if UND did not have hockey? I have the sense the name would have been dumped a long time ago if you didn't have hockey -- but I readily admit I have no support for that conclusion.

[Chewey]

Some very good insights 82 and Blackburn. I agree that Jeannote's decades long presence at UND and the presence of his cohorts and the usual perennial students the protest the nickname and the # of NA programs at UND belie the "hostile and abusive" business. 82 is probably right that 98% of the alumni will not be like I am in terms of entirely ceasing, for good, to donate at least to anything but hockey and football. But, I think it will be significant enough for the entire university to feel it for a number of years and I do not think the financial support will ever be where it has been. I am a native North Dakotan and a UND Fighting Sioux and I will never identify with the UND "Sundogs" or some other such nonsense. It comes down to this, essentially: If the university/SBoHE want to bend to the whims of a few whiners and viewpoint oppressing administrators/professors and then tell the alumni/nickname supporters "to just deal with it and be sure to continue sending your check," displeasure will be expressed by a lot fewer checks being sent. Mine will be a drop in the bucket but there will probably be a lot of us. I am of the opinion that if the U and the SBoHE want to listen to the few whiners, then they can be supported by the whiners and accept the natural consequences of aligning themselves with the whiners. At MSU-Moorhead, SCSU, MSU-Mankato and other universities, the cleavers are out. Professors are losing their jobs or are being forced into early retirement. Entire departments are being slashed. Many programs that never should have received taxpayer dollars in the first place are being eviscerated. Education is going more back to the basics where it belongs. There is a bit of a natural "righting of the ship" in all of it. The UND/NDSU professors/administrators had better hope that oil does not drop to below $50.00 per barrel and stay there or the ND schools will see the same thing.

[Chewey]

I suppose some opposed to the Fighting Sioux name are hung up on trying to be politically correct as some posters contend. But I think there are a lot of people who, while not paying great attention to the debate, do not understand all the nastiness expressed by many on the topic. The unresolved nastiness-- seems to be a good enough reason for some Summit League followers to hope that UND doesn't get an invite into the Summit League until UND can put this issue in the past. (Notice I do not say dump or retain the name -- I really could not care less about the name.)

I just read the most recent three pages of posts in this thread. If UND can't figure it out -- why should the rest of the Summit League risk having to deal with your baggage? I'm all for UND joining the Summit League WITHOUT the baggage. I don't care how UND addresses the baggage--either work it out with the Tribe(s) or just dump the name--just leave the baggage behind. And then: welcome aboard.

Serious question: I'm not a hockey fan but I wonder how much of the fight over whether to retain the name is influenced by hockey supporters. Would the discussion be different if UND did not have hockey? I have the sense the name would have been dumped a long time ago if you didn't have hockey -- but I readily admit I have no support for that conclusion.

Just to be clear: The baggage is not the nickname. Rather, the baggage are the few university PC dolts who get publicity through and are enabled by the Grand Forks Herald.

On a different take, why should universities or the Summit be concerned about controversy? Aren't universities supposed to welcome and encourage viewpoint expression about so-called "controversial" topics? If the issue is the Viet Nam war or the Iraq war or economic collapse or executive compensation limitations, it's ok but if the issue is something that is not PC it is not ok?

And yes, if UND did not have hockey the nickname issue would still be a big thing because, if nothing else, the university has been identified with it for over 80 years. It's the best nickname, bar none, in college sports.

[82SiouxGuy]

Some very good insights 82 and Blackburn. I agree that Jeannote's decades long presence at UND and the presence of his cohorts and the usual perennial students the protest the nickname and the # of NA programs at UND belie the "hostile and abusive" business. 82 is probably right that 98% of the alumni will not be like I am in terms of entirely ceasing, for good, to donate at least to anything but hockey and football. But, I think it will be significant enough for the entire university to feel it for a number of years and I do not think the financial support will ever be where it has been. I am a native North Dakotan and a UND Fighting Sioux and I will never identify with the UND "Sundogs" or some other such nonsense. It comes down to this, essentially: If the university/SBoHE want to bend to the whims of a few whiners and viewpoint oppressing administrators/professors and then tell the alumni/nickname supporters "to just deal with it and be sure to continue sending your check," displeasure will be expressed by a lot fewer checks being sent. Mine will be a drop in the bucket but there will probably be a lot of us. I am of the opinion that if the U and the SBoHE want to listen to the few whiners, then they can be supported by the whiners and accept the natural consequences of aligning themselves with the whiners. At MSU-Moorhead, SCSU, MSU-Mankato and other universities, the cleavers are out. Professors are losing their jobs or are being forced into early retirement. Entire departments are being slashed. Many programs that never should have received taxpayer dollars in the first place are being eviscerated. Education is going more back to the basics where it belongs. There is a bit of a natural "righting of the ship" in all of it. The UND/NDSU professors/administrators had better hope that oil does not drop to below $50.00 per barrel and stay there or the ND schools will see the same thing.

I am also a native North Dakotan and a UND Fighting Sioux. Every branch of my family has been in North Dakota for more than a century and I had relatives attending UND when they were the Flickertails. So I also have a lot invested in the University. And I have more Fighting Sioux stuff than you can shake a stick at. But I will continue to support UND even if it ends up with a lame nickname like Sundogs (I will do whatever I can to prevent something that lame even if I can't really do much).

One point that we definitely see differently is that I believe we are past the point where just a few whiners are fighting the nickname. That was the situation before the NCAA stepped in with the full force that they have. And before the court settlement that set up a time line for the end of the nickname, or a method to keep the name. The deck is now stacked against keeping the nickname. The odds of keeping the name get worse every day. The number of people that are in favor of keeping the nickname at all costs, or even just pushing it to the limits, is now a minority. I hope that some miracle happens and the name is saved. But I have serious doubts that it will happen.

[Siouxman]

Chewey's right on all points. It's not too late, and maybe no amount of humility on behalf of the SBHE would change anything, but a different approach would likely have produced different results. I still believe that the Sioux name is worth saving, but I can hear how many people are weary of the fight and the drama. There will be much regret if the name is gone; there will be little regret if we keep it.

If UND is such a hostile environment for the PC crowd such as Leigh Jeannotte and other UND faculty, I've often wondered what made him stay all the years? I mean, to go through the trauma seeing students in Fighting Sioux t-shirts day in and day out must be terrible... not to mention how tiring it is to play the professional a$$ for the cameras and the media all the time.

I doubt that a different approach, since the NCAA settlement would have made any difference. Tribes move on their own schedule, called IT (Indian Time). We have many dealings with Native Americans, set up meetings, etc. They show up when they show up. It could be one hour late, two hours late, or not at all. It takes two to tango, and when dealing with tribes, it is often a one-sided dance. They will get to it when, and if, they get to it. That is just their way. It is difficult for anyone who hasn't dealt with a tribe to understand it, but that is the way that their culture works. It is simply fact.

If UND had been more proactive over the past decades, that might have made a difference.

[Goon]

Your argument is that the Summit could just admit UND now and by the time they are officially in the league the nickname will be resolved one way or another, is it not?

I've given you the correct reason why this argument is false.

You don't have to accept it, but I have given it to you.

Hey Skippy since when are you the one that decides what's right or wrong? Since when did you become the arbitrator of what the Summitt does or does not do.

[Goon]

Serious question: I'm not a hockey fan but I wonder how much of the fight over whether to retain the name is influenced by hockey supporters. Would the discussion be different if UND did not have hockey? I have the sense the name would have been dumped a long time ago if you didn't have hockey -- but I readily admit I have no support for that conclusion.

Whether some want to acknowledge it or not Hockey drives UND, if you wearing a UND hat or shirt or jersey all around this country people come up to you and talk about our hockey team, you know the REA, 7 NCAA titles, all the former NHLer from UND, they ussually don't mention anything else maybe except for maybe the aviation program. That is the brutal reality. There is also a very small vocal minority of people that want the name changed and we are going to bend over backwards to change the name. It's basically a load of crap.

[82SiouxGuy]

Whether some want to acknowledge it or not Hockey drives UND, if you wearing a UND hat or shirt or jersey all around this country people come up to you and talk about our hockey team, you know the REA, 7 NCAA titles, all the former NHLer from UND, they ussually don't mention anything else maybe except for maybe the aviation program. That is the brutal reality. There is also a very small vocal minority of people that want the name changed and we are going to bend over backwards to change the name. It's basically a load of crap.

Hockey drives the Athletic Department and is the public face of UND because it gets more press, but it doesn't drive the University. Education of students drives the University. The Aviation school and the Business school and the Law School and the Med School and the Engineering school and the other schools, that is what drives the University. That's why the University is more important in the long run than what the nickname is.

As I said a few posts ago, it is no longer just a small minority that are driving this bus any more. It may be a minority that really hate the nickname and want it changed, but it is also a minority that is willing to pull out all of the stops to keep it. Except the minority that wants to change it has a couple of rather large allies weighing in on its side in the NCAA and the legal system represented by the settlement. Most of all, a whole lot of people just want it over no matter which way it goes.

[The Sicatoka]

For crying out loud...if people had the tenth of the passion for their daily lives as being displayed over a college sports nickname....bah, is it even worth going down that path?

But here you are, exhibiting the same behavior.

[The Sicatoka]

That's why the University is more important in the long run than what the nickname is.

Yes.

But in this move to Division I athletics we were all told that Athletics is the "front porch", the highly visible and recognizable face, of the house.

So, right when the street past the house will surely have more traffic due to re-routing, we're changing the porch so folks won't be able to recognize the porch or house.

[MplsBison]

I suppose some opposed to the Fighting Sioux name are hung up on trying to be politically correct as some posters contend. But I think there are a lot of people who, while not paying great attention to the debate, do not understand all the nastiness expressed by many on the topic. The unresolved nastiness-- seems to be a good enough reason for some Summit League followers to hope that UND doesn't get an invite into the Summit League until UND can put this issue in the past. (Notice I do not say dump or retain the name -- I really could not care less about the name.)

I just read the most recent three pages of posts in this thread. If UND can't figure it out -- why should the rest of the Summit League risk having to deal with your baggage? I'm all for UND joining the Summit League WITHOUT the baggage. I don't care how UND addresses the baggage--either work it out with the Tribe(s) or just dump the name--just leave the baggage behind. And then: welcome aboard.

Serious question: I'm not a hockey fan but I wonder how much of the fight over whether to retain the name is influenced by hockey supporters. Would the discussion be different if UND did not have hockey? I have the sense the name would have been dumped a long time ago if you didn't have hockey -- but I readily admit I have no support for that conclusion.

Don't waste your time, I've already given them this exact, correct reason why the Summit should not and will not look at UND for admission.

You can lead a horse to water...

It's all moot anyhow...the clock is rapidly ticking down and there is but one, single entity that can save the nickname: Standing Rock. You don't hear much about them these days...just ultra-bitter UND hockey fans who are lashing out and spraying venom at the Summit league and anything associated.

[82SiouxGuy]

Yes.

But in this move to Division I athletics we were all told that Athletics is the "front porch", the highly visible and recognizable face, of the house.

So, right when the street past the house will surely have more traffic due to re-routing, we're changing the porch so folks won't be able to recognize the porch or house.

You are correct. It isn't an ideal situation, but it is the hand that UND has been dealt. And it has been known since August 2005 that it could go this way. So no one should be surprised if it actually happens.

[JackJD]

Just to be clear: The baggage is not the nickname. Rather, the baggage are the few university PC dolts who get publicity through and are enabled by the Grand Forks Herald.

On a different take, why should universities or the Summit be concerned about controversy? Aren't universities supposed to welcome and encourage viewpoint expression about so-called "controversial" topics? If the issue is the Viet Nam war or the Iraq war or economic collapse or executive compensation limitations, it's ok but if the issue is something that is not PC it is not ok?

And yes, if UND did not have hockey the nickname issue would still be a big thing because, if nothing else, the university has been identified with it for over 80 years. It's the best nickname, bar none, in college sports.

I intended in my post for the word "baggage" to broadly mean the fight over the nickname....not the nickname itself. I do not have an opinion on the nickname itself.

I'm one who wouldn't mind having UND in the Summit League -- there are many benefits for travel etc. I don't consider myself in the camp of the PC-police. However, I see the pot constantly being stirred and its pretty easy for me to conclude that until the issue is resolved in some fashion -- any fashion -- probably okay for the Summit League to avoid the fray.

I wouldn't equate the Summit League with universities generally (addressing your comment about universities encouraging different viewpoints and "controversial" topics -- long-time Summit member ORU may disagree) . The Summit League has a specific purpose and I think it's best described as entertainment through athletics. When I read the serious back and forth arguments on this thread, I'm not thinking much about entertainment.

Last, I don't think the Fighting Sioux is the best nickname in college sports (Jackrabbits is the best nickname : ) ) but I do have a certain admiration for those who feel it is.

[MplsBison]

But here you are, exhibiting the same behavior.

I don't have a passion for the nickname. I don't care if it stays or goes.

I only care that it gets resolved as soon as possible so as it get UND in the Summit League.

[DamStrait]

I intended in my post for the word "baggage" to broadly mean the fight over the nickname....not the nickname itself. I do not have an opinion on the nickname itself.

I'm one who wouldn't mind having UND in the Summit League -- there are many benefits for travel etc. I don't consider myself in the camp of the PC-police. However, I see the pot constantly being stirred and its pretty easy for me to conclude that until the issue is resolved in some fashion -- any fashion -- probably okay for the Summit League to avoid the fray.

I wouldn't equate the Summit League with universities generally (addressing your comment about universities encouraging different viewpoints and "controversial" topics -- long-time Summit member ORU may disagree) . The Summit League has a specific purpose and I think it's best described as entertainment through athletics. When I read the serious back and forth arguments on this thread, I'm not thinking much about entertainment.

Last, I don't think the Fighting Sioux is the best nickname in college sports (Jackrabbits is the best nickname : ) ) but I do have a certain admiration for those who feel it is.

You know, it wasn't all that long ago that UND was in the same conference as SDSU (NCC). I certainly don't remember any issues that the NCC league office had to deal with because of the nickname squabble. I don't remember any Brookings incident because of it either. So why the hell does anyone think it would be such a big damned deal now?

[the green team]

Nobody is saying that the having the Sioux Nickname while participating in the Summit would be a problem. They just want us to either continue to be the Sioux or not. None of this, "one day we're going to get approval, the next were not"--- business. Its their league, and their rules. What this boils down to is $$$$, costs of travel, scholarships have all increased. This is not the perfect solution. Far from it, but right now I don't see how we can't take a hard look at it. Unless everyone is ok with us staying in the Great West, which is basically as an independent. I know what will happen then, I will be hit up to try defray the costs by increasing my donation. Now I guess if we all agree to significantly increase our donations, I am fine with that, but honestly I donate plenty already, I don't know how much more I can do.

Reality is, it really doesn't matter what the Summit says...If you believe that the Standing Rock Tribe is going to have any movement between now and Nov. then I have some ocean front property in Arizona I would like to sell you. There has been no movement.

The belief of getting a referendum there is complete and utter lunacy. The tribal council, and I don't care who is running it (RHHT, Murphy) is not going to go for this, because they know that if they allow for one on this issue, then arguments would be made to have to start allowing them on other issues...which is something they really don't want-- because it would take power away from the Council.

[MplsBison]

You know, it wasn't all that long ago that UND was in the same conference as SDSU (NCC). I certainly don't remember any issues that the NCC league office had to deal with because of the nickname squabble. I don't remember any Brookings incident because of it either. So why the hell does anyone think it would be such a big damned deal now?

If you're going to be mad at the NCAA for the hostile and abusive campaign, fine. Do that.

Don't have a temper tantrum at the Summit because they aren't going to let UND in until the issue is resolved.

[darell1976]

Nobody is saying that the having the Sioux Nickname while participating in the Summit would be a problem. They just want us to either continue to be the Sioux or not. None of this, "one day we're going to get approval, the next were not"--- business. Its their league, and their rules. What this boils down to is $$$$, costs of travel, scholarships have all increased. This is not the perfect solution. Far from it, but right now I don't see how we can't take a hard look at it. Unless everyone is ok with us staying in the Great West, which is basically as an independent. I know what will happen then, I will be hit up to try defray the costs by increasing my donation. Now I guess if we all agree to significantly increase our donations, I am fine with that, but honestly I donate plenty already, I don't know how much more I can do.

Reality is, it really doesn't matter what the Summit says...If you believe that the Standing Rock Tribe is going to have any movement between now and Nov. then I have some ocean front property in Arizona I would like to sell you. There has been no movement.

The belief of getting a referendum there is complete and utter lunacy. The tribal council, and I don't care who is running it (RHHT, Murphy) is not going to go for this, because they know that if they allow for one on this issue, then arguments would be made to have to start allowing them on other issues...which is something they really don't want-- because it would take power away from the Council.

How much you asking?

[Knickball2]

Still don't care about the Summit League, went to Sioux Men's and Women's Basketball games in the

Meltdown at the Ralph, lucky if there were 1800 people in the REA, and by halftime of Men's game less

than a 1,000, and many of those tickets were complimentary. So, reality is Hockey and Football are the

only sports on campus that really mean anything, and the Summit has nothing to do with those. Alas, the

Summit League and that wonderful run to the NCAA tournament by the Bison, not likely to happen again for

oh say, 20 years or so, so piss on the Summit League. In Grand Forks, Hockey will always be king, whether it's

Red River High, Central high, Senior High or UND, Fargo and Bison fans will never understand that. Right on Goon.