Media Stories on the Sioux Name

[Oxbow6]

Like wise everyone on this board said that Joe HAD to obey the SBoHE - Can't have it both ways. I do agree that the SBoHE shouldn't even be involved in this. That the only reason they were brough in was to be the fall guy for when the name changes and not the administration at UND. PC will get you every time.

That's my point, most of you Bison hacks trolling this site, specifically MplsBison, are arguing for the power of the SBoHE in the nickname issue. But when Joe felt the heat from that same board, all you heard from the Bison faithful was "leave poor old Joe alone!"

[MplsBison]

That's an invalid argument. A similar argument can be made that you have the right to join a union or not in a union shop. To get the job, you must join the union. To not join the union means not getting a job. Let's see, join the union and have work or stand on principle and not join the union and starve. Really, do you have a choice (technically you don't have to join the union but you must pay the initiation fee plus the weekly membership fees, effectively making you a union member but without voice and you fall under the union contract with the employee).

The NCAA is a monopoly, pure and simple. If you have any doubts about this, please check up on anti-competition laws. Companies that had a smaller percentage of market control than the NCAA has have been broken up (Standard Oil when it was broke up had a smaller market share for example). The NFL and MLB are other examples that are allowed to be monopolies. For schools, there really is no good alternative and to make that argument is a losing proposition. Sort of like you can go to something other than Microsoft Windows. True, there are alternatives but you cant find the software on these operating systems the same as you can for windows. You are really forced to use windows even if you use another operating system. Likewise, the other organizations (NAIA for example) don't have the breathe of membership that is available to the NCAA membership. Schools don't have any real alternative to the NCAA especially in depth and breathe of opportunities. It is conceivable in the future, a major group could form its own organization (BCS schools) come to mind but there really is no viable alternative today.

It's not the same because those were for-profit monopolies. The NCAA is a voluntary association.

UND could go independent of the NCAA, if it wanted, too.

[MplsBison]

So MplsBison if the board said tomorrow we are going to change NDSU's nickname and make the college pay millions to redue all the sporting venues and whatnot would you be okay with that. The thing is: #1 Why does the board need to interfere when the NCAA put a timeline that IS set in stone? That is the reason for all of this. Are they board? Nothing to do? Lets decide to screw with the NCAA/UND lawsuit. Why did the SL vote? Why are they screaming for the SR to vote (when they know that @sshole RHHIT and his cronies makes it impossible to vote and are now trying to remove the damage he caused) when they are going to turn around and stab the tribes and the UND fans/alums/ and students in the back and change the name well ahead of the Nov 30, 2010 deadline. I think 1 judge is all we need. I hope this bites the SBoHE in the @ss when its all done.

If NDSU's nickname was preventing us from getting into an auto-bid conference for all of out sports except football, you're damned right I would be okay with giving up the nickname.

UND hockey fans should stop being so selfish. There is nothing wrong with being known as UND hockey!

[MplsBison]

Court rulings get over thrown all the time. The current one that I can think of the was the new Supreme Courts' member, Sortameirer (sorry for misspelling) where her ruling on the promotions of firemen (I believe) was denied but the Supreme Court over turned her ruling and said that they should have been promoted. The procedure is very simple, just challenge the ruling to the next higher court if there is a legal standing. It might make it all the way to the Supreme Court whose decision is final, at least for the moment until the next Supreme Court overthrows it (i.e 1890's separate but equal doctrine, 1954 separate is inherently unequal [brown vs Board of Topeka I believe]).

Yeah but again, why should the court get the power?

They should not get to have the ability to interpret law. If someone wants to make a law more specific than it reads as-is, then they should have to amend that law! It shouldn't get to be left up to some judge's interpretation!

[82SiouxGuy]

It's not the same because those were for-profit monopolies. The NCAA is a voluntary association.

UND could go independent of the NCAA, if it wanted, too.

And which schools would they compete against as an independent? The NCAA schools wouldn't schedule games against them, at any level. I'm not sure about NAIA schools, they seem to schedule just about anyone so they might. Maybe they could schedule some exhibitions against Canadian colleges. Or local high schools. The UND teams would have absolutely no one to compete against, nothing to win since they wouldn't be part of any conference or organization and very little reason to play. Which means UND would have very little reason to have athletics. That may have been the most foolish post you have made on this forum.

[Chewey]

Yeah but again, why should the court get the power?

They should not get to have the ability to interpret law. If someone wants to make a law more specific than it reads as-is, then they should have to amend that law! It shouldn't get to be left up to some judge's interpretation!

Jesus, understand civics much?

[82SiouxGuy]

Jesus, understand civics much?

No, it doesn't.

[Bison Dan]

That's my point, most of you Bison hacks trolling this site, specifically MplsBison, are arguing for the power of the SBoHE in the nickname issue. But when Joe felt the heat from that same board, all you heard from the Bison faithful was "leave poor old Joe alone!"

True - but then you guys were all for the power of the SBoHE. I guess it depends on which ox is gored. I still think that the nickname issue should be a UND administriation problem and should not involve the SBoHE. Really when you look at the downside of keeping the name it only affects FB. I'd tell the NCAA to go pound sand and work on the tribes in the next several years to get their approval. I'm sure some sort of DEAL could be made.

[darell1976]

True - but then you guys were all for the power of the SBoHE. I guess it depends on which ox is gored. I still think that the nickname issue should be a UND administriation problem and should not involve the SBoHE. Really when you look at the downside of keeping the name it only affects FB. I'd tell the NCAA to go pound sand and work on the tribes in the next several years to get their approval. I'm sure some sort of DEAL could be made.

I think a deal could be made before the Nov. 30th 2010 deadline if the SBoHE would shut up and leave this alone!! Instead they are so gung-ho about the fricken Summit League. Our bball teams suck we won't see March Madness for a minimum of 3 years. (2012) and thats if our teams get an overhaul and start playing like NDSU did last season. Scheduling is not a problem (except the Minnesota ban), we have NDSU, SDSU, UMKC, Wisconsin on our schedules (bball, baseball etc.) But i guess we will see what Santa will bring us for Christmas a great present (SR can get a vote going...and SL wins the lawsuit) or a lump of coal (SBoHE changes the name effective immediately!).

[Blackburn87]

True - but then you guys were all for the power of the SBoHE. I guess it depends on which ox is gored. I still think that the nickname issue should be a UND administriation problem and should not involve the SBoHE. Really when you look at the downside of keeping the name it only affects FB. I'd tell the NCAA to go pound sand and work on the tribes in the next several years to get their approval. I'm sure some sort of DEAL could be made.

I agree that it should have been a UND adminstrative issue but I fear the current leadership in UND is hostile to the Fighting Sioux name. They won't say it publicly, but their actions indicate a very laissez-faire approach. Their public face protrays a helplessness as the SBHE has their way, and they're not serious about fighting this. I think part of the problem is the inherent disconnect when you have out-of-state people running this institution. These people don't love the name, the culture, or quite frankly, the University, to act as anything but a bunch of politicians. I hope I'm wrong and someone with some authority at UND will stand up and say that the SBHE needs to back off this imposed deadline and give the tribes a chance to work on this. Now THAT act would show the respect for the Native people that all these people claim they have.

[Sterling]

the current leadership in UND is hostile to the Fighting Sioux name. They won't say it publicly, but their actions indicate a very laissez-faire approach. Their public face protrays a helplessness as the SBHE has their way, and they're not serious about fighting this. I think part of the problem is the inherent disconnect when you have out-of-state people running this institution. These people don't love the name, the culture, or quite frankly, the University, to act as anything but a bunch of politicians.

add collusion and you'll have it all covered.

[Oxbow6]

add collusion and you'll have it all covered.

B-I-N-G-O!

[Oxbow6]

True - but then you guys were all for the power of the SBoHE. I guess it depends on which ox is gored. I still think that the nickname issue should be a UND administriation problem and should not involve the SBoHE. Really when you look at the downside of keeping the name it only affects FB. I'd tell the NCAA to go pound sand and work on the tribes in the next several years to get their approval. I'm sure some sort of DEAL could be made.

I guess I struggle to see as apple to apples as far as the SBoHE's involvement when you have a state university president who is totally misusing his position for pesonal gain vs. a handful of PC zealots who have had there feeling hurt over a name/logo.

[Ray77]

Yeah but again, why should the court get the power?

They should not get to have the ability to interpret law. If someone wants to make a law more specific than it reads as-is, then they should have to amend that law! It shouldn't get to be left up to some judge's interpretation!

I'm no genious or anything, but isn't that exactly the reason for the courts - to interpret the law?

[Bison Dan]

I guess I struggle to see as apple to apples as far as the SBoHE's involvement when you have a state university president who is totally misusing his position for pesonal gain vs. a handful of PC zealots who have had there feeling hurt over a name/logo.

Personal Gain? You have a real hardon for Joe because he vaulted NDSU ahead of UND. If the UND president would do the same thing you would just say he's just sticking up for his university. Of course you would also be screaming about the unequal distribution of moneys from the state.

[MplsBison]

And which schools would they compete against as an independent? The NCAA schools wouldn't schedule games against them, at any level. I'm not sure about NAIA schools, they seem to schedule just about anyone so they might. Maybe they could schedule some exhibitions against Canadian colleges. Or local high schools. The UND teams would have absolutely no one to compete against, nothing to win since they wouldn't be part of any conference or organization and very little reason to play. Which means UND would have very little reason to have athletics. That may have been the most foolish post you have made on this forum.

Your entire post was an irrelevant, emotional appeal. Much in the same way that the argument for keeping the nickname is.

The point is that UND is not forced to do anything. It's all voluntary.

[MplsBison]

Jesus, understand civics much?

Please enlighten us with your grand understanding.

[Oxbow6]

Personal Gain? You have a real hardon for Joe because he vaulted NDSU ahead of UND. If the UND president would do the same thing you would just say he's just sticking up for his university. Of course you would also be screaming about the unequal distribution of moneys from the state.

Ummmmm....no! Ask almost anyone, even here in Fargo...even my SU friends, and they, almost to a person, think Joe's activities bordered on criminal. Selfishness personal gain is at a minimum.

BTW...the only real hardon in Joe's situation was the one he gave SU when he bent over the university in which he was in charge of, not to mention that Foundation!

[MplsBison]

I agree that it should have been a UND adminstrative issue but I fear the current leadership in UND is hostile to the Fighting Sioux name. They won't say it publicly, but their actions indicate a very laissez-faire approach. Their public face protrays a helplessness as the SBHE has their way, and they're not serious about fighting this. I think part of the problem is the inherent disconnect when you have out-of-state people running this institution. These people don't love the name, the culture, or quite frankly, the University, to act as anything but a bunch of politicians. I hope I'm wrong and someone with some authority at UND will stand up and say that the SBHE needs to back off this imposed deadline and give the tribes a chance to work on this. Now THAT act would show the respect for the Native people that all these people claim they have.

Kelley is already on record: he doesn't want the nickname controversy to detract from the academic operations of the school.

And he's exactly right. In the grand scheme of things...he has a school to run! Athletics is a very periphery function of a school. And a nickname is a very insignificant part of that periphery function.

He has more important things to do, as he should.

[MplsBison]

I'm no genious or anything, but isn't that exactly the reason for the courts - to interpret the law?

Their job is to apply the law AS IT IS WRITTEN to situations where the law may or may not have been broken.

They should not be allowed to interpret a law BEYOND what is written.

That should require an amendment to the law.

[MafiaMan]

I'm no genious or anything, but isn't that exactly the reason for the courts - to interpret the law?

Not that I agree or disagree with your opinion, but I laughed out loud when I saw the mis-spelling of 'genius.'

[Chewey]

Please enlighten us with your grand understanding.

Hmm. Well, troll, it's kind of basic stuff that goes all the way back to a little case known as Marbury vs. Madison. But, troll, you don't even need to know about that. Just recall 7th or 8th grade civics, if you weren't baked the whole time, and you might recall something about 3 co-equal branches of government. Congress drafts legislation, the President signs it into law the Courts review it for constitutionality, etc. At the very least, you may remember the "I'm just a Bill" episode of "Schoolhouse Rock" on Saturday mornings but you are either too young for that or, more likely, were baked at the times it was on. Court's should not have the power of review?? If ever there was a walking, talking, breathing case for educational reform, I think we have it.

[MplsBison]

Hmm. Well, troll, it's kind of basic stuff that goes all the way back to a little case known as Marbury vs. Madison. But, troll, you don't even need to know about that. Just recall 7th or 8th grade civics, if you weren't baked the whole time, and you might recall something about 3 co-equal branches of government. Congress drafts legislation, the President signs it into law the Courts review it for constitutionality, etc. At the very least, you may remember the "I'm just a Bill" episode of "Schoolhouse Rock" on Saturday mornings but you are either too young for that or, more likely, were baked at the times it was on. Court's should not have the power of review? ? If ever there was a walking, talking, breathing case for educational reform, I think we have it.

Could you be any more red herring? No one is talking about a court reviewing a new law for constitutionality!

We're talking about a court interpreting a long existing law BEYOND what is written. Which they should not be allowed to do. The courts had their chance to review that law when it was written. If there was nothing wrong with it then, they shouldn't get to effectively add on to what is written now.

The SL tribe should be requesting an amendment to the constitution to note that the SBoHE does not have the authority to tell the schools what athletics nickname they can use! That's all they really want!

[The Sicatoka]

At the very least, you may remember the "I'm just a Bill" episode of "Schoolhouse Rock" ...

Ask and ye shall receive:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEJL2Uuv-oQ

[82SiouxGuy]

Your entire post was an irrelevant, emotional appeal. Much in the same way that the argument for keeping the nickname is.

The point is that UND is not forced to do anything. It's all voluntary.

Irrelevant only to you. You really seem to be pushing the limits of even your limited reality lately. The hard cold fact is that if a school wants to have an athletic department they have 2 choices, become a member of the NAIA or a member of the NCAA. An independent athletic department would not survive. The NAIA is a much less relevant choice and is mainly for smaller schools. That means that the only real choice for large schools is have an athletic department and join the NCAA or not have an athletic department.

Just about everything in life is voluntary if you want to push the definition that far. Breathing is voluntary. There are ways to stop breathing if you decide you want to do that. Would you like some links to show how that could work for you?