Let the lawsuit begin

[If only we had Belfour]

Check out this story about Florida State

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/foot...l.ap/index.html

My favorite quotes "Meanwhile, attorney Barry Richard, who successfully led the legal challenge on behalf of Republican George W. Bush in the 2000 presidential recount in Florida, has agreed to represent the school in its case against the NCAA, Florida State President T.K. Wetherell said Wednesday." Talk about bringing out the big gun. and ""How politically correct can we get?" Bush asked. "The folks that make these decisions need to get out more often."

This is great

And don't tell me there are already 2 strings on this issue. I already know.

[jpiehl]

Here is where my problem with this whole thing is: Within minutes of learning of this, Florida State's president was vowing lawsuits and any other measures necessary. Now they have secured legal counsel. And what has UND done? All that I have heard from them is that they are waiting to see how it affects them or something to that effect. I think it is pretty clear how it affects them, regardless of the actual wording in the ruling from the NCAA. Now is the time to draw the line in the sand and fight and stop the whole 'We are looking into it' nonsense. If Ralph is rolling over in his grave as has been previously suggested in another thread, it is because of the weak to nonexistant response from UND.

[jk]

Patience. Let FSU lead the charge for a little while and see how things start to settle. There's nothing wrong with taking a little extra time to survey the landscape before deciding on the best course of action.

[airmail]

If Ralph is rolling over in his grave as has been previously suggested in another thread, it is because of the weak to nonexistant response from UND.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree it is frustrating, but I'm not so quick to jump on the administration for a lack of action. If history has taught us anything about our great university, it is that we don't jump into things without testing the waters. I happen to agree with this. If it turns out that Florida State is going to lead an aggressive charge to overturn this ruling, I say by all means let them. I have no reservations about riding on the coat-tails of a university with:

1) A kick-butt legal team

2) Considerable financial recources

3) Incredible national exposure

Yes, I'd like UND to join in the fight, I have no doubt that they will. However, if another institution wants to step up and expend their resources at the forefront, and be afforded more national exposure than any other university on "the list"... I am more than fine with that.

[ScottM]

There's an old adage that suggests the "first to the courhouse wins". In this instance, I think FSU, even through its hot winded response, is probably right to move quickly in their own backyard to secure their rights, and put the NC$$ into a box. FSU's case is somewhat different based on the use a "mascot" and the fact that they have the support of the Seminoles in Florida. UND does not have those facts in its favor.

Moreover, it appears that FSU will probably use the NC$$'s own wishy-washy rule against it, and attack the rule as being arbitrary and capricious, e.g., what constitutes "abusive" or "hostile". Apparently, nobody at the NC$$ knows either. This tack makes sense for UND too. The fact that the NC$$ is a voluntary association does not put it above laws that also govern race-based criteria, e.g., the NC-Pembroke exception. The fact that all/most of the universities affected receive federal and state aid, and may be governed by their states may also trigger a host of issues that the NC$$ was too stupid to consider.

As JK noted, patience is key. However, I would hope the powers-that-be at UND are serious about defending the school's use of the name in the face of this rule and are really considering avenues of attack.

[PCM]

How about moving this thread to the Sioux Name forum where it belongs?

[GDM]

How about moving this thread to the Sioux Name forum where it belongs?

OK.

GDM

Forums Moderator

SiouxSports.com

[airmail]

As far as lawsuits go, I wonder if any cities will sign on. With the Alerus being a city owned building and potentially not being able to hold NCAA tournaments, there is a very real potential for lost revenue. Where "the city" specifically has a stake in this is in the lost ecenomic revenue from hosting the tournament. (hotels, restaurants, fuel stations, etc.)

Can you even argue in court over lost "potential" revenue?

[bigmrg74]

I'm sure somewhere out there there's a Lawyer willing to argue it.

[jpiehl]

I agree it is frustrating, but I'm not so quick to jump on the administration for a lack of action. If history has taught us anything about our great university, it is that we don't jump into things without testing the waters. I happen to agree with this. If it turns out that Florida State is going to lead an aggressive charge to overturn this ruling, I say by all means let them. I have no reservations about riding on the coat-tails of a university with:

1) A kick-butt legal team

2) Considerable financial recources

3) Incredible national exposure

Yes, I'd like UND to join in the fight, I have no doubt that they will. However, if another institution wants to step up and expend their resources at the forefront, and be afforded more national exposure than any other university on "the list"... I am more than fine with that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess the biggest problem I see with waiting is the fact that the NCAA is constantly pointing to their appeals process as the solution. I have no doubt that FSU will win their appeal to the NCAA given their relationship with the Seminole tribe in Florida. Then the whole problem goes away on a national level as soon as Illinois points out that their mascot is designed by tribal members as well. The NCAA will grant these two high profile schools exceptions rather than deal with a First Amendment fight in court. So that leaves the NCAA with a bunch of lesser known schools that are not well known on a national level to deal with. Much easier to tell them that they have to comply with some trumped-up bunko rule when the big guns have been given an exception and nobody on a national level is watching the issue anymore. I guarantee you that if Ralph was still with us there would already be papers filed at the courthouse. I guess I don't really expect much of a response from the administration based on how they have handled the name issue in the past, but it was refreshing to see FSU's president come out instantly against this instead of hiding behind more studies. I must just be missing the Tom Clifford days again....

[IowaBison]

I guess the biggest problem I see with waiting is the fact that the NCAA is constantly pointing to their appeals process as the solution. I have no doubt that FSU will win their appeal to the NCAA given their relationship with the Seminole tribe in Florida. Then the whole problem goes away on a national level as soon as Illinois points out that their mascot is designed by tribal members as well. The NCAA will grant these two high profile schools exceptions rather than deal with a First Amendment fight in court. So that leaves the NCAA with a bunch of lesser known schools that are not well known on a national level to deal with. Much easier to tell them that they have to comply with some trumped-up bunko rule when the big guns have been given an exception and nobody on a national level is watching the issue anymore. I guarantee you that if Ralph was still with us there would already be papers filed at the courthouse. I guess I don't really expect much of a response from the administration based on how they have handled the name issue in the past, but it was refreshing to see FSU's president come out instantly against this instead of hiding behind more studies. I must just be missing the Tom Clifford days again....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you're wrong on both counts. First off the Seminoles in Oklahoma, you know decendants of the folks who survived the trail of tears, do not like the nickname. Second, even I am offended by the Illini (of which there are zero surviving members), having a white guy pretending he's a chief isn't going to cut muster with the NCAA.

Third this is not a first amendment issue, unless you're talking about the freedom to organize.

I'm actually happy that Ralph is not around. I'm glad that he was able to pass into death thinking that his Sioux were saved (though I think he would have loved the fight).

[jpiehl]

I think you're wrong on both counts. First off the Seminoles in Oklahoma, you know decendants of the folks who survived the trail of tears, do not like the nickname. Second, even I am offended by the Illini (of which there are zero surviving members), having a white guy pretending he's a chief isn't going to cut muster with the NCAA.

Third this is not a first amendment issue, unless you're talking about the freedom to organize.

I'm actually happy that Ralph is not around. I'm glad that he was able to pass into death thinking that his Sioux were saved (though I think he would have loved the fight).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My point is simply that the NCAA will be looking for an excuse not to have to engage either of the big schools in a court battle that they will lose. As far as the Illinois mascot, please see the posting by Runninwiththedogs in the forum 'NCAA bans indian mascots post season play' for someone with firsthand information.

QUOTE(Runninwiththedogs @ Aug 7 2005, 07:23 PM)

Some of you may be aware (or were once aware and forgot after too many beers) that I went to Illinois, which is, as was mentioned in one of the articles cited, one of the highest profile schools involved in this lawsuit. All of Chief Illiniwek's costume was donated by Native Americans, the Chief has to be part Native American, and he has to spend time with the tribe learning about the culture. It's not some idiot in red-face whooping around in the stands. He doesn't do tricks, run stupid contests, or cut ribbons at supermarkets. The "Fighting" part of the Fighting Illini was meant to honor veterans who were affiliated with the university. So the liberal blowhards can b*tch all they want, but they're waaaay off the mark. God, is it ever offensive to honor military veterans...

[Sioux-cia]

If there are no surviving Illini, why isn't the U of I getting the same exemption that the Aztecs (no surviving Aztecs) of San Diego were given by the NCAA?

[ScottM]

Myles Brand "speaks".

USAToady

Brand's comments are amusing, and somewhat pathetic especially when he talks about "freedom of expression" versus "doing the right thing".

[airmail]

Myles Brand "speaks".

USAToady

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds like he doesn't want to take on FSU very badly... hell, he sounded like he was on their side.

[Sioux-cia]

Sounds like he doesn't want to take on FSU very badly... hell, he sounded like he was on their side.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wishy-washy, he's protecting that big salary of his.

"The decision applies only to NCAA national championships."

According to this quote, the decision should not affect the Regional playoffs.

He sounds like he's trying to take the heat off the NCAA staff and put it all on the Executive committee

"While I agree with and support the Executive Committee's decision, neither I nor any member of the NCAA staff had a vote. The decision was made by a dozen chancellors and presidents from all three membership divisions appointed to represent their institutions, their conferences and the values of higher education. There were no dissenting votes, either."

[Mad Man]

Wishy-washy, he's protecting that big salary of his.

"The decision applies only to NCAA national championships."

According to this quote, the decision should not affect the Regional playoffs.

He sounds like he's trying to take the heat off the NCAA staff and put it all on the Executive committee

"While I agree with and support the Executive Committee's decision, neither I nor any member of the NCAA staff had a vote. The decision was made by a dozen chancellors and presidents from all three membership divisions appointed to represent their institutions, their conferences and the values of higher education. There were no dissenting votes, either."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How can there be any dissenting votes if nobody had a vote?

Since FSU has been so vocal and plans to take legal action, they will be pretty much guaranteed an exemption. The ruling is clearly undefined and would probably not hold up in court (a big blow to the NCAA), however if the NCAA gives FSU an exemption it would still be able to enforce its undefined policy on the other 17 schools. I just hope FSU tells the NCAA to take their exemption and shove it.

[jpiehl]

How can there be any dissenting votes if nobody had a vote?

Since FSU has been so vocal and plans to take legal action, they will be pretty much guaranteed an exemption. The ruling is clearly undefined and would probably not hold up in court (a big blow to the NCAA), however if the NCAA gives FSU an exemption it would still be able to enforce its undefined policy on the other 17 schools. I just hope FSU tells the NCAA to take their exemption and shove it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My point exactly. Which is why UND needs to get in right now, because once FSU and Illinois have their exemptions there will no longer be a fight, so we need to be in alongside FSU now and not just try to ride on their coattails. I doubt that FSU is all that interested in the issue as a whole, just in protecting their own name.

[mksioux]

"The decision applies only to NCAA national championships."

According to this quote, the decision should not affect the Regional playoffs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He means national championship in the broader sense, meaning the entire championship tournament, not just the last game. This decision definitely extends to regionals and all other NCAA sanctioned tournament games.

[mksioux]

I am very curious how this appeal process works. Does it go back to the Executive Committee and the same people that made the decision in the first place, or does it go to a different group, or the larger body as a whole? Anyone have any insight?

[mksioux]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/200...ot-appeal_x.htm

But Brand pointed to the possibility of modifying the guidelines. FSU, he said, "might want to consider (proposing) an amendment that narrowly addresses their issues. Florida State might say if an institution has well-documented approval by the local Native American tribe or group and that is the tribe or group that they will represent and not all Native Americans, then under those narrow conditions I think the executive committee may decide they want to seriously consider such an amendment."

It sounds like Brand wants FSU off the NCAA's back and is almost urging them to propose a narrow amendment that carves FSU out rather than going after the ruling as a whole.

It sounds like FSU might get out of this, in part, because of their rapid and aggressive response.

[dagies]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/200...ot-appeal_x.htm

It sounds like Brand wants FSU off the NCAA's back and is almost urging them to porpose a narrow amendment that carves FSU out rather than going after the ruling as a whole.

It sounds like FSU might get out of this, in part, because of their rapid and aggressive response.

I agree.

[IowaBison]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/200...ot-appeal_x.htm

It sounds like Brand wants FSU off the NCAA's back and is almost urging them to porpose a narrow amendment that carves FSU out rather than going after the ruling as a whole.

It sounds like FSU might get out of this, in part, because of their rapid and aggressive response.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not going to work. The Oklahoma Seminoles aren't going to allow it.

[Diggler]

Not going to work.  The Oklahoma Seminoles aren't going to allow it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not even sure if that is true.

"My position is if the Seminoles in Florida decide it's OK with them, I have no problems with it," said Kelly Haney, a former Oklahoma state senator who will become the principal chief of the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma in September.

Current chief Ken Chambers said FSU's nickname "gives the type of recognition that allows people to identify with the name Seminoles." He said he did not find it "degrading" or "humiliating."

That's not the impression the average person might get from the NCAA's releases, or media accounts of the nickname controversy.

An example from a Texas newspaper: "The Oklahoma Seminoles don't like it. The Florida Seminoles do. 'It's just unfortunate they don't have the understanding they should have,' said David Narcomey, who this month steered a resolution through the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma General Council opposing the use of such symbols."

In interviews this week, Narcomey called the NCAA move "a major first major step" and "an outstanding decision to help eliminate this last bastion of racism in America today."

But Chambers pointed out the resolution Narcomey sponsored failed by a large majority in the tribe's governing council.

A call to the council's secretary confirmed the vote was 18-2 against, with three members not present, on a resolution to condemn the use of American Indian images and names in sports and other events. The vote failed even after Narcomey agreed to remove specific references to Florida State and the Seminoles.

[The Sicatoka]

And FSU has a mascot (Chief Osceola and Renegade): A potential big stumbling-block for them on the way to an exemption.