World Junior Tryouts

[tuggnutt]

1) Brendan Morrison would have been eligible during his freshman year of 1993-94 but did not make the team. I cannot recall whether or not he was invited to camp and subsequently cut, but I can tell you that the 1994 Canadian team was absolutely loaded up front and eventually won gold, so it's difficult to argue with the team that was picked:

1994 Canadian Junior Team

2-3) Zajac and Murray I discussed in an earlier post. Zajac didn't make last year's team, which steamrolled its way to gold, and is too old this year. Murray was eligible two years ago, and (I believe) was invited to the evaluation camp, but ended up getting his U.S. citizenship and playing for the U.S. instead.

4) Ryan Bayda's freshman year at UND was 1999-00 and his birthdate was Dec. 9, 1980. That would have made him 20 years old during the 2000 tournament and therefore ineligible.

5) Brett Skinner's freshman year at DU was 2002-03 and his birthdate is June 28, 1983. That would have made him 20 years old during the 2003 tournament and therefore ineligible.

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Sure, you go and muddle it up with facts and stuff. Zajac got hosed. Period. Canada was lucky to win EVERY GAME 10-1 without him last year

The real question is: Jose Canseco...Hall of Fame or no?

[Canuck]

Do you believe there is any merit to my position that to make team Canada as a non-MJ player you need to absolutely exceptional to avoid getting overlooked?

It seems like it would be only human nature to take the players you are most familiar with. Why risk a roster spot with an NCAA player or a junior player if you have plenty of talent to fill your team with known players.

Absolutely, and, like you say, what's the harm in that? Many times the coaching staffs assembled to run the World Junior team are CHL coaches. They have that familiarity and with so much at stake and such a short time to assemble a roster, familiarity is a plus.

I guess we will see how many NCAA players make it in the future. It seems the colleges are more than ever getting some of the better kids in Canada ( I am not saying the NCAA is Better then Tier 1). The CHL is going nuts over losing guys like Toews, Bertram, Bradford.

Absolutely. As well they should, and again, that's human nature. If they WEREN'T going nuts over losing some of the best players to another league, then that would be cause for alarm.

College hockey is a fast-growing option that wasn't considered as seriously by young Canadian hockey players (and their families) a generation or two ago. I suspect there were similar feelings of disappointment/resentment among the NCAA community when players such as Mike Modano and Pat LaFontaine elected to leave the U.S. to play in the CHL.

[legend334]

Jose....no....not good enuff #'s...period...how is Indy Tuggnut???

[#1Hakfan]

It seems kids from Michigan and the East coast were usually set on playing major junior. I suppose they were a lot more exposed to it. In Minnesota it is a rarity that the best kids go Major junior. It will Usually only happen when they cant get eligible for school. I think people on both sides of the border realize now that college is another option and it will create more opportunity for more players.

I also think more Minnesota High school kids are noticing the major junior leagues and it is giving them another option. (although the CHL has a limit on imports)

[CoteauRinkRat]

In Minnesota it is a rarity that the best kids go D 1.

What? Where do the best kids in Minnesota go?

I'm not being a jerk, I'm just curious.

[Cratter]

ach time, I've presented a list of 40 NCAA players who have represented Team Canada. Forty! 4-0!

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Quoting a list of NCAA hockey players on Canada's roster doesn't prove anything. There were 40 . What does that prove. That doesn't mean anything to me (and others). What makes you think there shouldn't have been 50-60 but Canada passed on them because they were playing for the NCAA and decided to pick someone else.

So I guess the sports writter was making stories up?!

[#1Hakfan]

What? Where do the best kids in Minnesota go?

I'm not being a jerk, I'm just curious.

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Sorry, I made a mistake. I fixed it.

[Canuck]

Quoting a list of NCAA hockey players on Canada's roster doesn't prove anything.

Can you actually be serious with this comment? Silly me, since the issue was 'Canada snubs NCAA players' I went delusional and figured listing the number of NCAA players who have played for Canada would be relevant. Whoopsie.

What makes you think there shouldn't have been 50-60 but Canada passed on them because they were playing for the NCAA and decided to pick someone else.

As soon as someone can provide some solid examples, I'll go with it. What makes me personally think this? Because I have watched the tournament all my life. I have seen NCAA players excel for Team Canada. Canada has won more gold medals than any other country; hard to argue with the results of the players they've picked.

What does that prove.

Well, more than you've been able to prove to the contrary. Again, don't tell me I'm wrong. Tell me WHY I'm wrong.

So I guess the sports writter was making stories up?!

Perhaps I missed it. Did you see a source attributed to that statement?

I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say he made it up. Believe it or not, I know this particular writer. I've met him several times. I would be shocked if he "was making stories up," but that still doesn't mean I have to take his statement as gospel IF THERE IS NO SOURCE.

[Canuck]

In a related note...it is my sad duty to report that Hockey Canada has announced its list of 36 players invited to the Olympic tryout camp. Alas, only four are products of the NCAA (Marty Turco, Dan Boyle, Dany Heatley, Martin St. Louis).

A shame indeed. Snubbed for a collection of stiffs named Lemieux, Brodeur, Iginla, Thornton...

Jingoism strikes again.

[PCM]

A shame indeed. Snubbed for a collection of stiffs named Lemieux, Brodeur, Iginla, Thornton...

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Never heard of 'em.

[PCM]

I would be shocked if he "was making stories up," but that still doesn't mean I have to take his statement as gospel IF THERE IS NO SOURCE.

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This always bothers me. One person makes a statement and it's instantly assumed that it reflects what everyone thinks.

Without attribution, we have no idea whether the statement reflects one person's opinion or the mainstream thinking of highly influential people in Canadian hockey. Just because someone said it and someone printed it doesn't make it so.

[sprig]

Just because someone said it and someone printed it doesn't make it so.

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Seems to work for USCHO posters

[Greyeagle]

Seems to work for USCHO posters

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And USCHO reporters.

[PCM]

And USCHO reporters.     

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Hey! Umm...no comment.

[dagies]

This always bothers me. One person makes a statement and it's instantly assumed that it reflects what everyone thinks.

Without attribution, we have no idea whether the statement reflects one person's opinion or the mainstream thinking of highly influential people in Canadian hockey. Just because someone said it and someone printed it doesn't make it so.

I agree. On the other hand, if those of us down here in the States read a Canadian writer make a comment like that we are going to think there's something to it. While I agree that doesn't prove anything, it does show that some of us down here aren't the only ones with that perception. In the end that perception appears more widespread than just a few uninformed college hockey fans who might have a chip on their shoulder.

Canuck may very well be right, I'll give him that. But it's obvious we didn't just make this stuff up down here.

[PCM]

While I agree that doesn't prove anything, it does show that some of us down here aren't the only ones with that perception. 

That was his point. It doesn't prove anything, other than that one anonymous person somewhere in Canada has it in for NCAA hockey players. What a shock. It wasn't long ago that some American universities refused to recruit Canadians and looked down their noses at schools that did.

Canuck provided some solid facts on how many NCAA players have been on Canadian WJC teams. So who are you going to believe? An uninformed opinion or an informed opinion? I'll take informed opinion every time.

But it's obvious we didn't just make this stuff up down here.

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It's also obvious that some people aren't going to let facts interfere with their perception of reality.

[CoteauRinkRat]

It's also obvious that some people aren't going to let facts interfere with their perception of reality. 

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I appreciate the stats that Canuck has put forward and it really shows that the conspiracy is just that a conspiracy.

What I don't understand is how when someone has a differing opinion on this issue, they are always accused of not "letting the facts interfere with their peception of reality".

PCM, if you were close to a hockey family and knew of an existing pressure and you were the only one who wrote about it, would that mean the pressue doesn't exist and everyone is crazy who believes that?

[Canuck]

PCM, if you were close to a hockey family and knew of an existing pressure and you were the only one who wrote about it, would that mean the pressue doesn't exist and everyone is crazy who believes that?

I see the point you're trying to make, but what PCM (echoing my thoughts) is trying to say is that if you are going to make a statement like that in a professional article, it is shoddy - even bordering on irresponsible - journalism to throw such a statement out there without something to back it up.

In this particular instance, the writer claims there is a movement underway among several CHL teams. But he doesn't indicate what he bases that statement on. Was it heresay? Was it information leaked to him by a CHL executive? A team executive? A parent? Facts like these DO matter. That is a pretty bold statement and tough to justify without a credible source.

[tuggnutt]

Internet message board.

I'll say it again.

Internet message board.

Opinions welcomed. Drama unwelcomed. Canadians wearing toques into the Ralph while "working" the event? ALSO should be unwelcomed

So much for Canuck presenting facts to back-up an argument. I've been on the wrong end of too many debates with that guy to not believe him. Ask him what he thinks of the 1998 Michigan squad...

Legend, Tugger digs Indy. Good times.

[Canuck]

Ask him what he thinks of the 1998 Michigan squad...

1998 Michigan squad? Makes Canuck very grumpy.

1997 Michigan squad, on the other hand?

[PCM]

What I don't understand is how when someone has a differing opinion on this issue, they are always accused of not "letting the facts interfere with their peception of reality".

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I entered the discussion not having an opinion one way or the other. Canuck provided concrete facts to back up his opinion that there is no Canadian WJC conspiracy against NCAA hockey players. The only thing the conspiracy theorists can provide is a quote from an anonmymous person. From my perspective, Canuck has made a strong case for his position while the conspiracy theorists haven't.

PCM,

[cavedurtis]

I entered the discussion not having an opinion one way or the other. Canuck provided concrete facts to back up his opinion that there is no Canadian WJC conspiracy against NCAA hockey players. The only thing the conspiracy theorists can provide is a quote from an anonmymous person. From my perspective, Canuck has made a strong case for his position while the conspiracy theorists haven't.

[Sioux_Hab-it]

This Team Canada conspiracy thread seems to a popular one with certain members of this chat as it resurfaces several times each season. Perhaps there are certain elements within Major Junior Hockey who would like to see elite players punished for going the college route. Probably the same team executives who have lost some of those players. However, as others and I have stated before Hockey Canada wants nothing short of Gold and will take the best available players regardless of what league they come from. If there hadn't been an NHL strike last year, Zajac would have played for the Canadian Junior team in Grand Forks. College players will continue to play for Team Canada and you will get to watch the likes of Toews and BC's Bertram don the Red and White in the very near term.

[Eskimos]

I suppose that if you wanted to believe that there really was an NCAA conspiracy against Canadians, you would continue to believe that Woog's position was indicative of the entire NCAA.

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I have never said that quote was indicative of Hockey Canada.

I think there are two arguments going on here. 1) Hockey Canada is biased against hockey players that play for US colleges and universities 2) that major junior leagues are pressuring their draft picks and certain players by telling them they will not be on any national teams.

Those are two separate arguments. Canucks facts show a couple players almost every year representing US colleges, therefore pretty much disproving the fact that Hockey Canada is excluding those types of players.

On the other hand, i'm sure there are some MJ teams who might try and "pressure" their draft picks and potential players by telling them they might not be picked for any Canadian national teams. Is this a common practice? I doubt it. Does it happen? Just like Canuck said before, I'm sure they might throw it around, to maybe gain a little leverage, just like any coach would when recruiting a player. In the end, the CHL and Hockey Canada are two different entities.