The old Engelstad Site

[The Sicatoka]

With the EERC, for this reason and others, and Athletics both having their eye on the old Engelstad site, what do you think should happen there?

EERC presses for old Engelstad site

The head of the Energy and Environmental Research Center said Thursday the site could be used to increase the parking availability in the area, but UND's Athletic Department thinks the land has potential for a new indoor track and training facility.

The latest issue of Alumni Review (the one with UND alumnus HF "Sparky" Gierke, Chief Judge of the US Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces, on the cover) mentions how UND alumnus and former Sioux and CFL kicker Darcy Dahlem has been working on plans for an indoor track and football training facility for a while (page 10).

Maybe the EERC needs the space, but there's no way that soil could support a parking ramp or other heavy structure. (See the story.) Something like a steel tent has to be lighter than concrete because essentially that's what old REA was.

[The Sicatoka]

Looking at a campus map, couldn't EERC expand north or east?

And won't some of EERC's potential parking issues be solved when the ramps go in at University and Columbia?

This previous story talks about using the east area as space for start-up businesses using the hydrogen development lab space. Wouldn't it be smart to put that lab closer to the east, like north of EERC?

It seems like someone at EERC, for whatever reasons, wants that old Engelstad space just so they can tear it down, and put up a parking lot.

[CoteauRinkRat]

It seems like someone at EERC, for whatever reasons, wants that old Engelstad space just so they can tear it down, and put up a parking lot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That someone seems to be Gerald Groenewold himself. He was on Mac Talk this morning and was asked about this and he said that the EERC expanding west is the only place they can expand.

He said that an indoor track facility could be built anywhere. This is just my opinion, but he sounded frustrated with not being able to get the go ahead to expand in that place.

This is going to be interesting.

[The Sicatoka]

Someone should have asked Gerry, "Where? Point it out," when he said an indoor track could go anywhere.

You'd think that someone with Groenewold's knowledge of engineering and geology would be trying to steer clear of building anything on a spongy old stream bed.

And why does Groenewold seem so interested in providing EERC space to companies coming in to do work with EERC? Wouldn't it be better for Grand Forks (namely the tax base) if those companies were on privately owned (not publicly held) land and facilities? If there really are start-ups (with little money) that need space, isn't there space already out in the Center for Innovation?

[UND Fan]

Various former athletes have provided design and architectural assistance with a proposed new track/practice facility (saving UND a great deal of $). It likely would have been announced a few months ago had Roger not left. They have not wanted to proceed without the blessing of the new AD. I believe they have some substantial commitments but a fund-raising drive would be necessary. It may have been wrapped up by now had the AD situation not arose.

Had that happened, the issue about the best use for that property (EERC or athletics) would not have been an issue. But... it is and I would guess it will get quite interesting before it is all decided. Although I would love to see the much-needed track/practice facility go there, it probably would be better use of that property for the EERC to utilize it. They are land-locked for the most part. The EERC has done a great job of expanding, creating higher paying jobs for local economy and I would bet that this is just the beginning of what they can do.

We will see how it all washes out in the next few months.

[star2city]

Someone should have asked Gerry, "Where? Point it out," when he said an indoor track could go anywhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Groenwold is very good at getting what he wants, which is always in the best interest for EERC. But in this case, it is not in UND’s interest and certainly not for the athletic department. Groenewold’s statements about “the indoor track facility can be built anywhere” are very misguided. For football, the indoor facility needs to be right next to Memorial Stadium and the grass practice field, otherwise a new grass field and outdoor artificial turf field need to built next to the indoor facility. Same for track. Except for the Bronson Field area, there is no UND land available east of I-29, unless the housing that is being torn down west of the Chester Fritz gets converted into practice fields. The Bronson/New Engelstad area is too valuble for future Med School / apartments / commerical development to be considered.

If Groenewold has a million available to tear down Old Engelstad and a few million more to build a parking ramp on it, certainly that money could be used for land acquisition toward the east: on Dyke Avenue and First Avenue North. Understand they had already been acquring property in that direction. Dyke avenue is mostly rundown and industrial already and could use redevelopment. If they really needed a parking ramp, they could build it right on 2nd Avenue, so it could be shared with the Nutrition Lab, and then buildings could be built on their existing parking area. Groenewold’s just making a power play for free (to EERC) land. If Groenewold’s arguments hold, it becomes inevitable that Memorial Stadium will see the wrecking ball.

[The Sicatoka]

If Groenewold has a million available to tear down Old Engelstad and a few million more to build a parking ramp on it, certainly that money could be used for land acquisition toward the east:

[The Sicatoka]

If Groenewold has a million available to tear down Old Engelstad and a few million more to build a parking ramp on it, certainly that money could be used for land acquisition toward the east:

[star2city]

Various former athletes have provided design and architectural assistance with a proposed new track/practice facility (saving UND a great deal of $).

Edited June 10, 2005 by star2city

[The Sicatoka]

.... the $15 million worth of tent structures will provide World Market with another 345,000 to 365,000 square feet of exhibit space ....

Let see, that would work out to be roughly (and rounding up to be safe) about $6 million for a 120,000 square foot building (say 400 x 300 -ish). Outfit it with field turf and locker room space, some seating (enough for soccer), and a few offices and you'd be looking at about $10 million for the facility. I think that's the number star2city was tossing about one time.

[UND Fan]

[UND Fan]

Let see, that would work out to be roughly (and rounding up to be safe) about $6 million for a 120,000 square foot building (say 400 x 300 -ish). Outfit it with field turf and locker room space, some seating (enough for soccer), and a few offices and you'd be looking at about $10 million for the facility. I think that's the number star2city was tossing about one time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Four-five months ago (when they were about ready to make an announcement, the cost was pegged at $11 million.

[#1Hakfan]

Does anybody ever make a long term plan. Maybe somebody did and I haven't seen it. It seems like there was no plan for the Bronson property and anyone who wants can build something there.

Economic development aside, I think it would have been cool if they would of planned to build an entire athletic complex there like Baseball and softball fields, practice Football field and a track field and soccer fields. They could have had one main building for Locker rooms and concession stand and public restrooms. That could have been a great asset for the entire community for all aged athletes. Along with the Ralph and Betty, it could of been a great facility. But I imagine they will run out of property soon.

[CoteauRinkRat]

http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/n...on/11880877.htm

Herald editorial about the "fight" for the Old Engelstad.

[UND Fan]

http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/n...on/11880877.htm

Herald editorial about the "fight" for the Old Engelstad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for posting this. Quite interesting - I probably agree with the Herald on this one although I certainly would like the training facility to go there. As I stated earlier, if we had not had the change in ADs, the training facility would have likely been announced some time ago and this wouldn't have been an issue!

[star2city]

Does anybody ever make a long term plan.  Maybe somebody did and I haven't seen it.  It seems like there was no plan for the Bronson property and anyone who wants can build something there.

Economic development aside,  I think it would have been cool if they would of planned to build an entire athletic complex there like Baseball and softball fields, practice Football field and a track field and soccer fields.  They could have had one main building for Locker rooms and concession stand and public restrooms.  That could have been a great asset for the entire community for all aged athletes.  Along with the Ralph and Betty, it could of been a great facility. But I imagine they will run out of property soon.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Bronson property was supposedly reserved for intramural fields. Some alum's actually made a pretty big issue about the conversion of Bronson into a University Village (they might have even filed suit, can't remember.) With the soccer field reserved for future medical school development and the rest of Bronson propery earmarked for private development, the lack of land reserved for the athletic department/intramurals seems like a rather glaring deficiency in planning. All the more reason for UNDEERC to build higher, toward the north, and toward the east.

Curious that Groenewold was actively campaigning his plans with both local radio and the Herald, and not giving an accurate picture of the athletic department's predicament (the practice facility can not be built anyway, contrary to Groenewold's stand). Could it be that an internal UND decision has been made, and Groenewold was just attempting to subvert it in the public media? After all, Groenewold's influence with EERC clients is now seen as indispensable, so he really doesn't have to worry about job security from his UND 'bosses'.

[Smoggy]

The Bronson property was supposedly reserved for intramural fields. Some alum's actually made a pretty big issue about the conversion of Bronson into a University Village (they might have even filed suit, can't remember.) With the soccer field reserved for future medical school development and the rest of Bronson propery earmarked for private development, the lack of land reserved for the athletic department/intramurals seems like a rather glaring deficiency in planning. All the more reason for UNDEERC to build higher, toward the north, and toward the east.

Curious that Groenewold was actively campaigning his plans with both local radio and the Herald, and not giving an accurate picture of the athletic department's predicament (the practice facility can not be built anyway, contrary to Groenewold's stand). Could it be that an internal UND decision has been made, and Groenewold was just attempting to subvert it in the public media? After all, Groenewold's influence with EERC clients is now seen as indispensable, so he really doesn't have to worry about job security from his UND 'bosses'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ask the marching band about those long term plans. Had to start on Dyke across from EERC. Not wide enough. Moved to 42nd and Demers. Had to pay plenty of money to get it in decent enough shape. The rugby team then moved in and tore it up. Then the Hilton came. Next the band practiced on the north lot of the Al. Sucky. But now that is gone too, plus I believe the Al wanted to charge the band at one point. I'm not even sure where they practice any more.

I'd say move to Tech park, though I'm sure that will be gone in a few years. Isn't all that land where Dagwoods and Mini Mart at owned by UND? Though, I think apartments are going in.

[The Sicatoka]

Yes, apartments are going in between MiniMart and Dagwoods along 42nd Street.

The campus is land-locked:

- Demers and the tracks

- I-29, 42nd Street, and the English Coulee

- Gateway Drive, the cemetary, and University Park

The only direction available to increase the footprint is east, east of EERC. If EERC doesn't open that direction campus will be completely landlocked.

And it will be Gerry Groenewold's fault.

[The Sicatoka]

Question:

Do we want a hydrogen research facility (think: Hindenburg):

(a) closer to the center of campus, Swanson (residence) Hall, the Columbia Road overpass, and (soon) a parking ramp, or

(b) along railroad tracks in an industrial area on Dyke Avenue?

[ESPNInsider]

Yes, apartments are going in between MiniMart and Dagwoods along 42nd Street.

Actually a new book store is going up in between Dagwoods and MiniMart.

No one has brought up that discussion either. What a great thing it is to bring in another book store finally. It is outrageous what Barnes and Noble was charging/returning off those books. At least this way it's no monopoly. Still will be bad though I'm sure.

[DamStrait]

Question:

Do we want a hydrogen research facility (think: Hindenburg):

(a) closer to the center of campus, Swanson (residence) Hall, the Columbia Road overpass, and (soon) a parking ramp, or

(b) along railroad tracks in an industrial area on Dyke Avenue?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Believe me, there are FAR worse things than hydrogen. Because it is so light, if precautions are taken to prevent it from being trapped in from above (outdoor bulk storage), it escapes quickly and easily into the atmosphere and its potential hazard is substantially mitigated.

However, without a doubt, this is a power play by Gerry Groenewold. He's done a lot of great things for the EERC, but growing too fast, if that growth is unsustainable over the long run, is a very dangerous thing. There's just something about Gerry that I find distasteful - he just seems too "oily" for my comfort.

[The Sicatoka]

EERC has received many grants lately, but very few in the area that EERC started in, namely clean coal technology and research.

My sources in EERC tell me that the clean coal research part of the operation is actually short on things to work on. And I haven't heard of any new projects in that area for quite a while. Are they planning to close that part of the facility? Could that space be reused or renewed into one of these new areas of research like hydrogen?

It seems that clean coal technology is something that EERC has moved away from under Groenewold's leadership. Considering the vast coal resources ND has and the potential benefits of clean coal technologies toward national energy independence, Groenewold must have some reason for that movement. But given the economic value coal provides to ND (the whole economy out in the Beulah and Hazen area, outside of fishing and tourism), shouldn't EERC remain somewhat in touch and true to its origins?

And no, the preceding was not brought to you by the ND Lignite Council.

[The Sicatoka]

I'm not anti-hydrogen or hydrogen research. I'm just against storage of an explosion potential in a high-traffic area. And I'm not so sure how wise it is to be developing experimental technologies with materials with explosion potential in a high-traffic area.

The proposed bio-research lab got a huge amount of review and public input. Shouldn't this potential hazard also?

PS - Worse than hydrogen? Like nuclear?

[Cratter]

Actually a new book store is going up in between Dagwoods and MiniMart.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Both are right. Bookstore, unnamed tennant, and apartments above.

[siouxrunner]

I'm not anti-hydrogen or hydrogen research. I'm just against storage of an explosion potential in a high-traffic area. And I'm not so sure how wise it is to be developing experimental technologies with materials with explosion potential in a high-traffic area.

The proposed bio-research lab got a huge amount of review and public input. Shouldn't this potential hazard also?

PS - Worse than hydrogen? Like nuclear?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

UND has been in need of an indoor practice/competition facility for a long, long time. During the winter months, before the Betty was built, we would be practicing in there with up to 6 teams at a time (men/women track, baseball, softball, men/women basketball) I have been told that "there are plans" for an indoor track since I came to UND as a freshman, and I still don't see anything. I was a member of the Student Athletic Advisory Council (SAAC) and the issue was brought up multiple times, and still nothing.

The athletic department has been sitting on its hands on this for a long time. If they really wanted to build us a practice facility, they would have done it by now. People will say "they were busy building Engelstad." No. That was a private donation, so was the Betty. There could have been a fundraiser, or a push from Grandall and Clay to actually get something done or at least publicly announced. Why have they waited so long? Instead it has been, "oh, we have plans for that space."

People have said that they want to wait until the new AD gets here, but if they had enough planned why not put out an architectural drawing and say something like "this is what we want our student athletes to be practicing in in 4 years." Then the new AD could come in and say, "yep, we're going ahead on the track," or "we're making some changes to the initial plans." The athletic department can't just say, "oh wait we wanted that first" and just get what it wants.

The EERC has been growing steadily, and it has been one of the most successful pieces of the University for a long time. It makes sense for them at this point to continue expanding, and to continue that expansion near the Old Engelstad. To the east and north of EERC are residential areas...how long do you think it would take to convince people to move out of their homes? Money to buy the property doesn't convince everyone, and the buyout process could extend for years. These are people's HOMES. It will be most beneficial for everyone if the EERC is allowed to expand into the area occupied by the Old Engelstad arena.

I'm sure I want this indoor facility just as much as anyone (I ran on the track and cross country teams for the last four years, and it gets pretty cold outside in the winter), but the way the process has been handled doesn't make sense. Put it over on the Bronson property...there is plenty of room, and besides, Ralph's original idea was to eventually have all the sports facilities located over there. The athletic department knew it, but they didn't make a big fuss when other people wanted to develop homes and businesses.

Sicatoka, I have always respected your posts as you seem knowledgable in most things you say here, but calling an EERC hydrogen research facility an explosion potential? Give me a break. I guess we should start boycotting gas stations and call our congressional representatives to have them shut down the public transportation of explosive gasoline while we are at it. Do some research before you make the EERC out to be a hazard to everything within a three block radius.