The Vikings are not a people

[GrahamKracker]

Why must everyone compare the "Sioux" with the Vikings? I never got this comparison. First of all, are there any vikings around now? Are they pillaging villages and conquering new lands? If not, then why do you assimilate yourself to this, I don't know what you'd call it, a profession?

On the other hand, I know many Sioux people. My parents, my sister, my cousins, my grandparents, many of my friends, they are Sioux. They were born Sioux and will die Sioux. Unlike many of you reading this.

I'm sorry you can't be enrolled in a federally recognized Sioux tribe. I'm sorry that your skin burns if your out in the sun too long. But most of all, I'm sorry that you think that taking your kids to a hockey game will educate them on the history of Indian people. That would be like me taking my kids to the Viking Inn to teach them about Norwegians, or taking them to a Viking game. I can only imagine it now "you see that mascot down there in purple? He represents the proud Norwegians....lol, yeah right" I don't know, but from the the experiences I've had with Norwegians, I think there is more to their people than those horned hats and blonde braids.

I know that whatever I put here, I'll get tons of responses, probably comparing the Sioux to......irish.....vikings.......whatever other sports team you can come up with. But the bottom line is that a MAJORITY OF THE SIOUX NATION WOULD LIKE YOU TO QUIT USING OUR NAME. That's what it comes down to. Hetche to yelo

[CoteauRinkRat]

I'm sorry that your skin burns if your out in the sun too long. 

wow

I hope no one else on this board stoops to your level of rhetoric.

[Five-HoleFrenzy]

Exactly,

"I'm sorry you can't be enrolled in a federally recognized Sioux tribe. I'm sorry that your skin burns if your out in the sun too long. But most of all, I'm sorry that you think that taking your kids to a hockey game will educate them on the history of Indian people."

This basically makes null and void anything else you say in the post. I disagree strongly with your notion that going to a sporting event for UND is an exercise in learning about the Sioux.

[Let'sGoHawks!]

Troll alert. Bye bye.

[The Sicatoka]

I'm sorry you can't be enrolled in a federally recognized Sioux tribe.

[ScottM]

I love comic relief this early in the morning.

[PCM]

Why must everyone compare the "Sioux" with the Vikings?  I never got this comparison.  First of all, are there any vikings around now?

The Vikings were my ancestors. I thought you were opposed to your ancestors being portrayed in a stereotypical manner. Why is it acceptable for my ancestors to be ridiculed and stereotyped, but not yours?

I wonder how much Duante Culpepper knows about the history, culture, traditions and heritage of the Scandinavian people. Shouldn't anyone who puts on a Vikings jersey be required to know something about Scandinavian history and culture? What about athletes who play for the Fighting Irish? I wonder how much they actually know about the Irish. Shouldn't the fans who watch Vikings, Vandals or Fighting Irish sporting events be required to know something about the culture of the people after which those teams are named?

Are they pillaging villages and conquering new lands?  If not, then why do you assimilate yourself to this, I don't know what you'd call it, a profession?

You are engaging in a stereotypical portrayal of my ancestors. Not all Vikings engaged in pillaging and conquering. Many were writers, painters and clothing designers. I invoke the right of self-portrayal and order you to stop

On the other hand, I know many Sioux people.

Me too.

My parents, my sister, my cousins, my grandparents, many of my friends, they are Sioux.  They were born Sioux and will die Sioux.  Unlike many of you reading this.

It's rather difficult to die Sioux if you're not born Sioux, don't you think?

But most of all, I'm sorry that you think that taking your kids to a hockey game will educate them on the history of Indian people.

I'm sorry that you think I think that because I don't.

That would be like me taking my kids to the Viking Inn to teach them about Norwegians, or taking them to a Viking game.  I can only imagine it now "you see that mascot down there in purple?  He represents the proud Norwegians....lol, yeah right" I don't know, but from the the experiences I've had with Norwegians, I think there is more to their people than those horned hats and blonde braids.

Exactly. Thanks for so eloqently making my point. There's hope for you yet.

[Air Force One]

Wow, and my wife says I talk just to hear the sound of my voice, she should read this!

I never thought of taking my kids to a hockey game to learn history, what a concept! I thought a hockey game was somewhere you went to be seen, make business deals, exchange cookie recipes, talk on your cell phone, drink as much beer as you can afford and not cheer.

And I'm scandnavian too, let my people go!

[THETRIOUXPER]

Hey grahamcrakcer, maybe you should spend some time trying to get the people of Sioux Falls, SD, and Sioux City, IA to drop the "SIOUX" part of their cities' name, I'm sure a majority of the populations there are not "enrolled in a federally recognized Sioux Tribe".

[THETRIOUXPER]

DaveK, I guess great minds think alike. I realize that this issue is very emotionally charged on both sides, but who does this guy think he is coming into our house like that and talking smack, doesn't he realize no one here takes him serious just because of the sarcastic way he posted. Everyone is entitled to ther opinion but come on realize what you're saying and where you are saying it. I'm sure he's got enough feedback now to achieve the release he so desperately needed

[The Sicatoka]

"Asked if high school and college teams should stop using Indian nicknames, 81% of Native American respondents said no."

Source: Peter Harris Research Group, Inc., as reported in Sports Illustrated, March 4, 2002, page 69.

Methodology: The pollsters interviewed 351 Native Americans (217 living on reservations, 134 living off). The responses were weighted according to US census figures for age, race, gender, and the distribution of Native Americans living on and off reservations.

Margin of error: Plus or minus 4 percent.

A poll of American Indians found that an overwhelming majority of them are not bothered by the name of the Washington Redskins pro football team.

Only 9 percent of those polled said the name is "offensive," while 90 percent said it's acceptable, according to the University of Pennsylvania's National Annenberg Election Survey, released Friday. -- Source: Associated Press, September 24, 2004

[airmail]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course they wouldn't object to the use of "Redskins." It is obviously a term used loosely for those of us who's "skin burns if your out in the sun too long." Thank you, GrahamKracker, for feeling my pain.

velkommen hjem til oss

[THETRIOUXPER]

This may be a little off topic but I was curious if any one out ther might know how many and who they were, student athletes that were Native American and proudly competed for UND and wore the logo with pride. Past, present, or future, ie. incoming recruits. Thanks.

[dagies]

I wonder if anyone can dig up Mark Ranfranz's comments about playing hockey for the Sioux.

Thank you to PCM and the Sicatoka who argued my points before I had to.

[PCM]

I wonder if anyone can dig up Mark Ranfranz's comments about playing hockey for the Sioux.

Well, that's just great, dagies. Now you've forced me to post a link to one of my own USCHO articles. There will be heck to pay now.

For those who might not know who Marc Ranfranz is, he was a backup goalie at UND during the 2002-2003 season. He is one-eighth Sioux and his father Tom Ranfranz was president of the Flandreau-Santee Sioux tribe in South Dakota at the time the article was published.

Does Marc Ranfranz approve of UND's use of the Sioux name and logo?

"I hope, for myself, that they don't change it. I honor it. I enjoy it. I think it's a great nickname and logo. It makes me feel proud when I come into the rink and see the Sioux logo all over."

Does he think the Sioux are being personally insulted when fans of opposing teams use the name in a derogatory manner?

"I take it as an offense toward our team. Some people just read too much into it. They're saying it at a game. They're saying it about the team, not about the Sioux people. It goes along with the rivalries of each school."

Does he think the logo stereotypes the Sioux people?

"There are stereotypes of just about anything. If you're going to stress out about stereotypes of your background, it's a lot of wasted time. You can't control what other people are going to say."

Does he think of the name and logo as an honor?

"I see a little of myself in the logo, I guess. When you get a chance to put on a jersey with the Sioux logo on front and your name on back, it's an honor."

[dagies]

Well, obviously, he doesn't know what he's talking about. Someone better educate him.

[iramurphy]

This may be a little off topic but I was curious if any one out ther might know how many and who they were, student athletes that were Native American and proudly competed for UND and wore the logo with pride. Past, present, or future, ie. incoming recruits. Thanks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The late Bob Eaglestaff was a Sioux basketball player. I rode with him back to school a few times back in the 1970's. We talked about the Sioux name when the AIM guys beat the hell out of the fraternity guy during the ice sculptor week. He thought they were a bunch of Jack-asses and said the people on the reservation liked UND as the Fighting Sioux. I have heard that same thing from other American Indians time and time again. I continue to work with Native Americans on a weekly basis.

UND has no obligation to teach the rest of the world about Sioux culture. They asked and received permission to use the name. UND did it in a respectful way. This Graham Cracker guy wants to dishonor those elders now because he and others have seemingly changed their mind. They make no attempt to understand our culture and how insulting it is now to have them demand the name be changed in such a disrespectful manner. I am no expert on Sioux culture but I know enough to know that this is not the traditional way. His elders would have honored this agreement.

[bigmrg74]

More great "PC" idears out of California.....

Mascot bill passes California Senate committee

[ScottM]

More great "PC" idears out of California.....

Mascot bill passes California Senate committee

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The state has a record debt load, illegal immigrants are clogging public services, its school systems are turning to crap, public libraries are closing and idiots are shooting people on LA's highways ... yep, I'd say school nicknames are the critical issue in the state. "Moron, thy name is Goldberg."

[GrahamKracker]

The late Bob Eaglestaff was a Sioux basketball player. I rode with him back to school a few times back in the 1970's. We talked about the Sioux name when the AIM guys beat the hell out of the fraternity guy during the ice sculptor week. He thought they were a bunch of Jack-asses and said the people on the reservation liked UND as the Fighting Sioux. I have heard that same thing from other American Indians time and time again. I continue to work with Native Americans on a weekly basis.

UND has no obligation to teach the rest of the world about Sioux culture. They asked and received permission to use the name. UND did it in a respectful way. This Graham Cracker guy wants to dishonor those elders now because he and others have seemingly changed their mind. They make no attempt to understand our culture and how insulting it is now to have them demand the name be changed in such a disrespectful manner. I am no expert on Sioux culture but I know enough to know that this is not the traditional way. His elders would have honored this agreement.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why do you insist thinking the people that came up here in the late 60's are the "say all" of the entire Sioux Nation? They weren't a part of the Tribal Government, nor did they hold any power to do what they did. This would be like you going over seas and making some pact for North Dakota without the consent of North Dakota. If that is your only reason as to why the name should be changed, I suggested you try harder, because that holds no water.

Please don't talk to me about agreements...if the majority in this country held to their agreements, well, you probably wouldn't be here now, because this would still be Indian Land.

Yes, you are not an expert in Sioux culture, so don't give your opinion because you don't know anything. I could teach you, but that would require me teaching you about Lakota values, and quite frankly, UND is NOT the place to talk about values, because the mighty dollar can overstep anything here. Not in Sioux Country, look at the money we STILL didn't accept for the Black Hills, I guess our values cannot be bought. Hetche to

[MafiaMan]

Why do you insist thinking the people that came up here in the late 60's are the "say all" of the entire Sioux Nation? They weren't a part of the Tribal Government, nor did they hold any power to do what they did. This would be like you going over seas and making some pact for North Dakota without the consent of North Dakota. If that is your only reason as to why the name should be changed, I suggested you try harder, because that holds no water.

Please don't talk to me about agreements...if the majority in this country held to their agreements, well, you probably wouldn't be here now, because this would still be Indian Land.

Yes, you are not an expert in Sioux culture, so don't give your opinion because you don't know anything. I could teach you, but that would require me teaching you about Lakota values, and quite frankly, UND is NOT the place to talk about values, because the mighty dollar can overstep anything here. Not in Sioux Country, look at the money we STILL didn't accept for the Black Hills, I guess our values cannot be bought. Hetche to

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Stop trying to educate me on what is racist and what isn't, GrahamCracker. My great grandparents emigrated to the USA from Italy. My grandpa can still recall signs in stores, workshops, and offices saying "WOPS need not apply" and "no Italians." Your people don't have exclusive rights to the experience of racism. Just because I am white doesn't mean racism does not apply.

[iramurphy]

Why do you insist thinking the people that came up here in the late 60's are the "say all" of the entire Sioux Nation? They weren't a part of the Tribal Government, nor did they hold any power to do what they did. This would be like you going over seas and making some pact for North Dakota without the consent of North Dakota. If that is your only reason as to why the name should be changed, I suggested you try harder, because that holds no water.

Please don't talk to me about agreements...if the majority in this country held to their agreements, well, you probably wouldn't be here now, because this would still be Indian Land.

Yes, you are not an expert in Sioux culture, so don't give your opinion because you don't know anything. I could teach you, but that would require me teaching you about Lakota values, and quite frankly, UND is NOT the place to talk about values, because the mighty dollar can overstep anything here. Not in Sioux Country, look at the money we STILL didn't accept for the Black Hills, I guess our values cannot be bought. Hetche to

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Graham,

Do you ever read what others write? I spoke about one guys opinion and what I have heard from others about the name change. Others who have responded to you have experienced the same thing. What you say and what we experience are two different things. I understand what the majority of the present day tribal governments have said. They are politicians and I give them the same credibility I give the republicans and democrats. They do not always speak for the majority of the people and they are not always right. I was not talking about making new treaties. The only "treaty" or agreement out there on this subject is the one your elders previously agreed to and that was to grant permission to UND to use the name. It is you and the present select tribal leaders who do not want to honor that agreement. Why do you complain about agreements not being adhered to you seem to want to pick and choose which to honor and which to dishonor? That is not consistent with your own culture or is that the part of your culture I know nothing about. Are you saying your people will no longer honor this agreement because someone else didn't honor theirs? You show no respect for our culture and you repeatedly insult us and our culture and yet show frustration that no one wants to listen to you. Go figure.

Graham, you have not shown you are an expert on Sioux culture either, yet you give your opinion. Why would I not be able to give an opinion? You tell me I don't "know anything". That is the attitude that I referred to when I suggested that if anyone accepted you invitation to go to the cultural center for a debate that there would be no interchange of ideas, only the same rhetoric without thought for others opinions that we hear frequently. I don't think you are necessarily ignorant, as you keep accusing others of, but you are certainly closed minded. I do not agree that you could teach me. That would require you to respect others thoughts and ideas. You might be able to lecture me and rant and rave. I would love to debate you and see who might know what! As far as your culture, is it not true that it was the Chippewa who took the Sioux lands and moved your people west before the Europeans came? It was later that the US government did all of what they did. What kind of treaty did you get from the Chippewa? Do you not understand the world was much different back then.

Your racist comments about one culture can be bought and another can't is not appreciated. In reading your entries to this forum you show hatred toward my culture and a lack of understanding about diversity. You seem to call others ignorant if they won't buy in to your opinions and you seem to bring back parts of the past when convenient and ignore the past when it doesn't support your views. You show disrespect to other Native Americans who support the UND Fighting Sioux name. You dishonor others like the late Bob Eaglestaff, who was a great man and did great things for Indian children before his untimely death. I hope you in your lifetime can do half of what Bob did for all of us, not just his own people. He was proud of who he was and his heritage but he didn't use it as an excuse and he didnt' allow it to keep him from doing great things for others.