Column in the Michigan School Newspaper

[ESPNInsider]

[Cratter]

The question on the table is still why someone writing a piece on the greatness of Michigan athletics would feel the need to buttress his claim with a hatchet job on thousand-mile-away, non-rival, out-of-division, UND athletics. (See previous postulating).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He clearly explains why in his article:

I

[yzerman19]

Now I have no affiliation to Michigan, but comparing UND to Michigan is kind of a stretch. Yes, UND's hockey program has been every bit as if not more successful than MI lately, but Michigan is basically an ivy-league caliber academic institution and is a national player in DI in all sports. As much as I like UND and could care less about Michigan, Michigan is all in all a superior academic institution and collegiate experience. If someone I cared about was debating between attending UND or Michigan, I would say go to Michigan in a second. Sorry, but I have to be pragmatic about this one. Only exception would be if this person was a hockey player with an interest in aviation.

[Cratter]

Now I have no affiliation to Michigan, but comparing UND to Michigan is kind of a stretch.  Yes, UND's hockey program has been every bit as if not more successful than MI lately, but Michigan is basically an ivy-league caliber academic institution and is a national player in DI in all sports.  As much as I like UND and could care less about Michigan, Michigan is all in all a superior academic institution and collegiate experience.  If someone I cared about was debating between attending UND or Michigan, I would say go to Michigan in a second.  Sorry, but I have to be pragmatic about this one.  Only exception would be if this person was a hockey player with an interest in aviation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Different people have different agendas.

UND folks often think about going to U of Minnesota, but don't, even though they have all the above mentioned. I wonder why anyone besides a "hockey player or anyone interested in aviation" goes to UND.

[Siouxman]

[Sioux-cia]

Now I have no affiliation to Michigan, but comparing UND to Michigan is kind of a stretch.  Yes, UND's hockey program has been every bit as if not more successful than MI lately, but Michigan is basically an ivy-league caliber academic institution and is a national player in DI in all sports.  As much as I like UND and could care less about Michigan, Michigan is all in all a superior academic institution and collegiate experience.  If someone I cared about was debating between attending UND or Michigan, I would say go to Michigan in a second.  Sorry, but I have to be pragmatic about this one.  Only exception would be if this person was a hockey player with an interest in aviation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No one is debating this. The people on this post want to know why this so-called journalist had to identify Ralph Englestad as someone who is known to be a Nazi sympathizer. We don't like it that he felt it necessary to justify why Michigan is better by bashing the whole state. Why not just state the obvious? As previously written, we know that Michigan as a university has a lot to offer except as you mention in the areas of hockey and aviation (there are a lot more but why be redundant).

[Siouxman]

Quote: "Ralph Engelstad, the alum who North Dakota named its state of the art hockey arena after, is best remembered outside of the state as a Nazi sympathizer." End quote.

This is the single point that the author fails to realize, which should be obvious to any journalist. Hanging that statement out there all on its own, suddenly makes it a fact to the Michigan reader. As it stands in the opionion piece, Engelstad is a Nazi sympathizer. Whether this is an opinion piece or not, broadcasting that kind of statement to the reader as a stand-alone item is totally irresponsible. It perpetuates a belief in the reader that he truly is a Nazi sympathizer. If a single word such as "inaccurately" or "falsely" or "incorrectly" had been included, there wouldn't have been a problem with the statement. It is correct that the opinion piece wasn't intended to defend Engelstad, and it shouldn't be. But it also shouldn't inappropriately slander him either, intentionally or unintentionally.

I predict a dark future (in the author's mind), in a small town in eastern ND, as a pseudo-journalist for this author.

[Siouxman]

I just thought of the perfect example, just in case some still don't get it.

And please treat this as an example and not a personal attack!!

Let's assume that I write an opinion piece about college newspapers. And in that piece I include the following: "Josh Holman, a writer on the staff at Michigan, is best known on SiouxSports.com as a mediocre journalism student with a chip on his shoulder." Is that a fact? Heck, I don't know. But if I leave that sentence as is, to any reader who does not know Josh, they now know him as a mediocre student. It would be totally improper for me to do such a thing.

And that is the point!

[PCM]

I decided to try my hand at this opinion stuff. Folks, I have to tell you, by adhering to the standards set by the student journalists who weighed in on this thread, it's kind of fun. I highly recommend it.

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April 22, 2005

Michigan reeks and can't compare to ND

By PCM: Part God, Whole Sudo-Reporter

I can

[Sioux-cia]

I decided to try my hand at this opinion stuff. Folks, I have to tell you, by adhering to the standards set by the student journalists who weighed in on this thread, it's kind of fun. I highly recommend it.

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April 22, 2005

Michigan reeks and can't compare to ND

By PCM: Part God, Whole Sudo-Reporter

I can

[bigmrg74]

I decided to try my hand at this opinion stuff. Folks, I have to tell you, by adhering to the standards set by the student journalists who weighed in on this thread, it's kind of fun. I highly recommend it.

------------------------------------

April 22, 2005

Michigan reeks and can't compare to ND

By PCM: Part God, Whole Sudo-Reporter

I can

[PCM]

Now you guys are just being nasty.    It was just some artical in the Michigan Student Paper.  Its not like it was the New York Times or anything, I doubt that even half of the UM student body even bothered to pick up a copy of the paper or to look at any of it online.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wrote Josh an e-mail with my thoughts on his column and he wrote me back a nice e-mail to which I responded. I was fully prepard to let it go until he came here to stir things up again by offering lousy excuses and lame rationalizations. That was his choice.

[HockeyMom]

Maybe North Dakota hasn

[PCM]

Don't forget that out of 9 National Titles, Michigan had 6 before the Sioux won any of their 7.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It sounds like you're using actual facts. I might consider doing that some day.

[HockeyMom]

It sounds like you're using actual facts. I might consider doing that some day. 

I need more cowbell, gotta have that cowbell.

[The Sicatoka]

Now you guys are just being nasty. 

I'm pretty sure the response to that is either:

Imitiation is the sincerest form ...

or

Payback's a ...

[Cratter]

Nodak emailing him all weekend.       

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have a question for our beloved Monster. Isn't the Wink, Smily, and Silly (the eye roller) all sorta contradicting each other? Is it a way to be serious and try to express your opinion without getting into a confrontation?

and another quick question whats the "MRG74" stand for?

[FgoWolve]

Quote:  "Ralph Engelstad, the alum who North Dakota named its state of the art hockey arena after, is best remembered outside of the state as a Nazi sympathizer."  End quote.

This is the single point that the author fails to realize, which should be obvious to any journalist.  Hanging that statement out there all on its own, suddenly makes it a fact to the Michigan reader.  As it stands in the opionion piece, Engelstad is a Nazi sympathizer.  Whether this is an opinion piece or not, broadcasting that kind of statement to the reader as a stand-alone item is totally irresponsible.  It perpetuates a belief in the reader that he truly is a Nazi sympathizer.  If a single word such as "inaccurately" or "falsely" or "incorrectly" had been included, there wouldn't have been a problem with the statement.  It is correct that the opinion piece wasn't intended to defend Engelstad, and it shouldn't be.  But it also shouldn't inappropriately slander him either, intentionally or unintentionally.

I predict a dark future (in the author's mind), in a small town in eastern ND, as a pseudo-journalist for this author.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just don't agree with your arguments on this point, which seems to be the one getting circulated over and over again. As sensitive as the subject is, this just isn't the place to spread the good word of Engelstad or dispell any rumors. No matter what kind of good things he did, he did some shady things that even some North Dakotans don't agree with. It's not an untrue statement and it's part of an opinion piece. You should know to take an opinion piece with a grain of salt. I'm just not convinced otherwise.

Also, since many of you had made a number of predictions on my future. I figured I'd help you out a bit, in case you've got a pool going. I'll be attending law school at Marquette University in the fall. I'm just not a small town kind of guy.

[Goon]

I just don't agree with your arguments on this point, which seems to be the one getting circulated over and over again. As sensitive as the subject is, this just isn't the place to spread the good word of Engelstad or dispell any rumors. No matter what kind of good things he did, he did some shady things that even some North Dakotans don't agree with. It's not an untrue statement and it's part of an opinion piece. You should know to take an opinion piece with a grain of salt. I'm just not convinced otherwise.

Also, since many of you had made a number of predictions on my future. I figured I'd help you out a bit, in case you've got a pool going. I'll be attending law school at Marquette University in the fall. I'm just not a small town kind of guy.

Edited April 23, 2005 by Goon

[Sioux_Hab-it]

In closing let Wisconsin have him Mr. Holman its obviously too superior for North Dakota. Lastly I hope I don't offend the lawyers on site, Yikes.    "great that all we need another friggen lawyer?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Based on some of the flawed logic he has offered on this site, I believe that a successful career in law is wishful thinking on his part. At best he'll probably find himself cleaning out the estates of little old ladies in some backwoods town.

[PCM]

It's not an untrue statement and it's part of an opinion piece.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unless you have better information than the FBI, which investigated the Nazi sympathizer accusation over a four-year period, it is an untrue statement. Hiding behind the "it's part of an opinion piece" argument is sillly and makes you look irresponsible.

[Sioux-cia]

I'm just not a small town kind of guy.

Sorry, Opie, your opinion piece shows that you are and always will be a 'small town kind of guy'. Just as your mind will always be small, narrow, and full of dust balls. Where you come from and where you are going won't change that.

[Supertrex]

Mr. Holman:

Why doesn't the Michigan student paper have to huevos to publish my letter or any other letter calling you on your unprofessionalism? I guess it's a one-way street - so much for allowing alternative views.

When I was at Michigan this past February, I looked at your student paper and I'm not surprised. You know your audience.

But you're way off base and way out of your league. Acknowledging mistakes and weaknesses comes with maturity and confidence. You'll only get there if you drop the "superior" attitude. You will learn as you grow older that the world is a very small place and, as such, you should avoid pissing people off if you can. Acknowledging mistakes increases other's respect for you. You will not say you made a mistake, even when you clearly did. Instead, you do a "Clintonist" argument based on pure symantics. That is why PCM and others now do not respect you.

I respect those that stand for what they believe, based on the facts. Fielding the impossible-to-prove argument that "I love my school more than you" is just pure junior high. And making untrue statements and then hiding under your momma's skirt is not the way to begin making friends or building a reputation in this small, small world.

Whether you go to Michigan or Marquette or North Dakota will matter only until you start. After twenty years or so, it will be an interesting fact but not the controlling factor when deciding whether you get the job and whether you keep it.

[Goon]

Mr. Holman:

Why doesn't the Michigan student paper have to huevos to publish my letter or any other letter calling you on your unprofessionalism? I guess it's a one-way street - so much for allowing alternative views.

When I was at Michigan this past February, I looked at your student paper and I'm not surprised. You know your audience.

But you're way off base and way out of your league. Acknowledging mistakes and weaknesses comes with maturity and confidence. You'll only get there if you drop the "superior" attitude. You will learn as you grow older that the world is a very small place and, as such, you should avoid pissing people off if you can.  Acknowledging mistakes increases other's respect for you. You will not say you made a mistake, even when you clearly did. Instead, you do a "Clintonist" argument based on pure symantics. That is why PCM and others now do not respect you. 

I respect those that stand for what they believe, based on the facts. Fielding the impossible-to-prove argument that "I love my school more than you" is just pure junior high. And making untrue statements and then hiding under your momma's skirt is not the way to begin making friends or building a reputation in this small, small world.   

Whether you go to Michigan or Marquette or North Dakota will matter only until you start. After twenty years or so, it will be an interesting fact but not the controlling factor when deciding whether you get the job and whether you keep it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually I would call it more like Ward Churchill like. Basically the same Chicken S#!T stuff though. Only answer the questions you want to answer. I recommend writing or calling the papers editor if you haven't.

Finally, you can put me in the don't respect Holman column, he is definately not Chuck Klosterman material.

[edo1313]

Unless you have better information than the FBI, which investigated the Nazi sympathizer accusation over a four-year period, it is an untrue statement. Hiding behind the "it's part of an opinion piece" argument is sillly and makes you look irresponsible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Has the FBI done a four-year study on how the general public views Ralph Engelstad? The question is not whether he was actually a Nazi sypathizer, it is how people view him. I worked at the World Juniors for Hockey Canada, and there were plenty of Canadian journalists who had questions regarding Ralph and possible Nazi activity.

Someone can be best remebered for something that isn't true. For example, Josh may best remembered on this message board for being a supposedly lousy journalist, who doesn't look into what he says. However, both his position at the Michigan Daily and the fact that he has been accepted to law school suggest otherwise.

Whether or not Ralph Engelstad was a Nazi sympathizer has nothing to do with whether or not people think of him as one. It's sad, but labels stick on people.

Josh is not the first columnist to use a generalization in a column. Rick Reilly (Sports Illustrated) does it quite often in his work (a piece that completely bashes Detroit Redwing fans comes to mind first). I'm sure Redwing fans thought is was a little libelous, but I, along with many other readers, thought it was hilarious.