DI vs. DII

[bincitysioux]

I recently posted these numbers on another site.

From 2000 to 2005:

FB winning %

UND .770 > NDSU .660

MBB winning %

UND .620 > NDSU .560

WBB winning %

UND .820 > NDSU .780

Combined post-season appearances for the 3 sports

UND 9 > NDSU 4

Football Attendance

UND 9,417 < NDSU 11,892

Combined Basketball Attendance

UND 3,128 > NDSU 2,421

I know these figures aren't really overwhelming, but since this particular regional institution continually recites their dominance at the Division II level of play as one of the leading factors in their reasoning for movinge to DI, these numbers may have some validity. Another point is the fact that in the last 8 years, UND has 4 DII national championships, while NDSU has 0. One more observation of mine is this: I always considered UND Men's basketball to be somewhat mediocre, but after some research I have found that our rival's men's basketball program is far more mediocre than North Dakota's.

[tony]

NDSU has five national championships in three different sports in the last eight years, not zero. In the last eight years NDSU was in DII, NDSU had six national championships in four sports.

Not that it matters. I'm just pointing this out because NDSU deserves credit for what it accomplished.

Anyway, while NDSU move was made a little easier because it already had a strong athletic department, this was not the reason for the move. NDSU moved up primarily because of changes in the nature of Division II. Sure, NDSU has changed a bit too, but DII has changed dramatically.

UND's situation is different because your flagship sport hasn't been affected by these changes in DII. If you guys decide to stay in DII forever, more power to you.

[UND Fan]

NDSU has five national championships in three different sports in the last eight years, not zero. In the last eight years NDSU was in DII, NDSU had six national championships in four sports.

Not that it matters. I'm just pointing this out because NDSU deserves credit for what it accomplished.

Anyway, while NDSU move was made a little easier because it already had a strong athletic department, this was not the reason for the move. NDSU moved up primarily because of changes in the nature of Division II. Sure, NDSU has changed a bit too, but DII has changed dramatically.

UND's situation is different because your flagship sport hasn't been affected by these changes in DII. If you guys decide to stay in DII forever, more power to you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tony - your point is well-taken!

[The Sicatoka]

UND's situation is different because your flagship sport hasn't been affected by these changes in DII.

Regarding the changes in football (NDSU's flagship sport), these DII changes so radically negatively impacted NDSU such that they decide to move to DI-AA and yet these same changes allow, in parallel, for UND's program to become dominant in DII.

What I don't understand is if these recent changes in football were bad for strong DII programs, why wasn't UND negatively impacted and yet NDSU claims to be? The answers have to go beyond "flagship". I need help sorting out the other reasons.

[tony]

Hehehehe. I had a nice, long reply here but didn't want to get into a whole big thing. The Sicatoka can think want he wants

[The Sicatoka]

No, I'm serious. If NDSU is in such a different situation please explain it. It could better explain the course UND has chosen.

[tony]

Um, first of all, I didn't say that changes in DII "radically negatively impacted" NDSU's football program. You said that, not me. NDSU has won 69% of its games the last six years - that's even counting the crappy 2-8 season - and had better attendance than any DII school during that time frame.

The "dramatic changes" I was talking about were more about membership. Yeah, the scholarship cuts hurt, but they were just a natural consequence of wholesale membership changes in DII. Since DII continues to attract smaller and smaller schools while losing its strongest programs, I think most people would agree that further scholarship cuts will happen. However, the membership changes are at the center of the problem. Look at your basketball schedule - that's the present and near-future of DII. As an NDSU guy, I wasn't comfortable with that. At UND, your athletic department is built around hockey so what happens in DII is kind of a sidelight.

I suppose you are wondering, if everybody operates under the same scholarship limits, why it would affect NDSU adversely while formerly weak programs seemed to flourish. Heck if I know for sure... maybe NDSU was unable to sign the same quantity of quality of players; these players ended up going to other NCC schools; as a result these schools were better able to compete with NDSU; as a result of that, they were able to recruit more effectively against NDSU and so on. OTOH, maybe it was purely coincidental that other NCC teams got better and NDSU got worse when the scholarship cuts took place.

Moreover, Roger Thomas all but said UND would be forced to leave DII if this last proposed scholarship cut came into affect. If you really think that three prior scholarship cuts shouldn't have affected NDSU, then you really must have been puzzled why this last cut was viewed as being so bad that UND was prepared to abandon an extremely public, principled stand because of it. Yet, from what I can see, you didn't think to ask what all the fuss was about back then. Funny how that works, isn't it?

Anyway, I know why I wanted NDSU to move to DI, but UND's situation is fundamentally different. While I like arguing with UND fans (hopefully good naturedly), I'm in no rush to see NDSU and UND on the same field and would prefer UND to stay in DII. However, I'll let you guys do what you think is best for your school and not criticize you for it as long as you extend NDSU the same courtesy.

[The Sicatoka]

I really don't have a problem with anything in your first two paragraphs.

I suppose you are wondering, if everybody operates under the same scholarship limits, why it would affect NDSU adversely while formerly weak programs seemed to flourish. Heck if I know for sure... maybe NDSU was unable to sign the same quantity of quality of players; these players ended up going to other NCC schools; as a result these schools were better able to compete with NDSU; as a result of that, they were able to recruit more effectively against NDSU and so on. OTOH, maybe it was purely coincidental that other NCC teams got better and NDSU got worse when the scholarship cuts took place.

My speculation about NDSU: A little of two factors: (a) fewer scholarships didn't allow for as deep of a bench, and (b) the coaching that had NDSU 2, 3, or 4 -deep at key positions just wasn't producing as well as it had in the past with the talent in hand.

Moreover, Roger Thomas all but said UND would be forced to leave DII if this last proposed scholarship cut came into affect. If you really think that three prior scholarship cuts shouldn't have affected NDSU, then you really must have been puzzled why this last cut was viewed as being so bad that UND was prepared to abandon an extremely public, principled stand because of it. Yet, from what I can see, you didn't think to ask what all the fuss was about back then. Funny how that works, isn't it? 

That did puzzle me. UND has a history of controlling what it can control and not making reactionary moves to things happening around it. I'd have been forced to deem such a scenario, if it had come to pass, as reactionary. The flip side is that NDSU may have reacted to something that did not come to pass at the time.

Anyway, I know why I wanted NDSU to move to DI, but UND's situation is fundamentally different. While I like arguing with UND fans (hopefully good naturedly), I'm in no rush to see NDSU and UND on the same field and would prefer UND to stay in DII. However, I'll let you guys do what you think is best for your school and not criticize you for it as long as you extend NDSU the same courtesy.

I'm sure you don't want to face UND in competition.

The courtesy, however, has to meet one other key requirement: If there's a legitimate concern to the taxpayers of North Dakota it must be able to be addressed (be it at UND or NDSU). All the rest of this sports stuff comes in second to the owners of the institutions and the folks who ultimately have the fiscal responsibilities.

[tony]

Hehehe, you're twisting my words again. I actually wrote that I'm in "no rush" to see UND and NDSU on the same field, mostly because I think the rivalry hasn't been bringing out the good in people.

With a new AD and a new President at UND, maybe the climate will improve. If not, maybe it's time for both schools to build some new rivalries based on mutual respect and good sportsmanship.

[The Sicatoka]

Twisting? "I'm in no rush to see NDSU and UND on the same field ... " How else but "don't want to face" should anyone have read that?

New rivalries? Very difficult given geography.

Respect and sportsmanship. Yes.

Give it time.

[Bison Dan]

Twisting? "I'm in no rush to see NDSU and UND on the same field ... " How else but "don't want to face" should anyone have read that?

New rivalries? Very difficult given geography.

Respect and sportsmanship. Yes.

Give it time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There are dii schools sprouting all around gf - so geography shouldn't be an obstacle. The fact is NDSU sees dii in decline (quality wise) and UND doesn't. As far as scholarship reductions in dii, it's just a matter of time. NDSU is taking a proactive stance and moved to DI and UND is waiting to see what happens. I don't think either position is wrong it's just a difference in what they think is best for their own schools.

[ndsubison]

There are dii schools sprouting all around gf - so geography shouldn't be an obstacle. The fact is NDSU sees dii in decline (quality wise) and UND doesn't. As far as scholarship reductions in dii, it's just a matter of time. NDSU is taking a proactive stance and moved to DI and UND is waiting to see what happens. I don't think either position is wrong it's just a difference in what they think is best for their own schools.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with Bison Dan in that NDSU saw the writing on the wall and took a proactive stance regarding the move up. I don't necessarily think that UND fails to see the decline in quality of d2. I just don't understand all of the criticism leveled at NDSU the past couple of years by (mostly) UND fans. Some of these same fans are now warming up to the idea of DI. I understand why both schools want to do what they perceive as best for themselves so let's just leave it at that and stop all the negativity/criticism. NDSU feels that we've made the right choice and we will move forward. Let UND do what they feel is best.

GO BISON!!

[The Sicatoka]

Part of respect is spelling UND and NDSU appropriately.

UND sees the parts of DII that are most like it: SCSU, MSU-Mankato, UM-Duluth, UN-Omaha. (I'm sure you see the theme there.) UND needs to retain strong relationships with those schools because all of those schools base their budgets around the gate of that common theme (and the other sport rivalries that come from it).

UND can't just bolt away from those schools because it believes it sees something better out there. If UND does leave the NCC and DII I'd expect there to be a smooth transition plan in place for both UND and the NCC, thus helping and protecting all the schools mentioned.

And it's not like UND is sitting around doing nothing while things play out. UND is controlling what it can control:

- It can't control new members of DII joining the NSIC

- It can't control (it has some influence) on DII football scholarship numbers

- It can control its facilities (as in construction) and is doing so nicely.

- It can control its athletic budget. (Remember the noteworthy UND IAC minutes where Dr. Kupchella asked for two budgets: a DII and a projected DI budget.)

[IowaBison]

Part of respect is spelling UND and NDSU appropriately. 

UND sees the parts of DII that are most like it: SCSU, MSU-Mankato, UM-Duluth, UN-Omaha. (I'm sure you see the theme there.) UND needs to retain strong relationships with those schools because all of those schools base their budgets around the gate of that common theme (and the other sport rivalries that come from it).

UND can't just bolt away from those schools because it believes it sees something better out there. If UND does leave the NCC and DII I'd expect there to be a smooth transition plan in place for both UND and the NCC, thus helping and protecting all the schools mentioned.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree completely. I think that UND has a great thing going with its DII/hockey combination. If they could add a few more hockey schools to the NCC, I think that would be even better.

Two points:

1) NDSU waited a year to make the transition so the NCC as a whole would consider it. A year that would have been better spent, in hindsight, making the move.

2) If UND leaves DII, the NCC will either die, merge, or struggle for years.

[The Sicatoka]

2) If UND leaves DII, the NCC will either die, merge, or struggle for years.

I believe the NCC could survive the loss of UND if a suitable replacement was found (e.g. Winona State, Concordia-St. Paul, UN-Kearney, or DII newbie U of Mary).

However, I do not believe the NCC could survive the loss of both UND and UN-Omaha. I also believe that if (a) UN-Omaha leaves to replace Missouri-Rolla in the MIAA (or jumps to DI-AA) or (b) if UND makes the jump to DI-AA, it will spur the other school (UND/UNO) to move out of the NCC also. At that point expect a major reshuffling of (the remaining) NCC, NSIC, and even Dak-10 (8?) schools into probably two new large (10-14 team) conferences, one being DII and one being I'm not sure what.

[Woden]

1) NDSU waited a year to make the transition so the NCC as a whole would consider it.  A year that would have been better spent, in hindsight, making the move.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know who gives you your information, but that is complete garbage. NDSU went right after the Carr report was finished (which told them to find a conference before moving up!), and never waited a second. If you are talking about the exploratory year, that is required by the NCAA. I'm not exactly sure what year you are referring to, please enlighten me.

[bisonguy]

[RD17]

There was a very interesting study released by the NCAA this week regarding the schools that have moved from D-II to D-I in the last 20 years. It studied the economic impact on the different schools and also looked at things like alumni giving, enrollment, etc. The short version: moving to D-I makes very little sense in most cases.

[tony]

Well, I'd suggest bringing up that study if UND looks at moving to DI, RD17. Better yet, I suggest you write a letter to the Grand Forks Herald warning UND not to go DI - better nip this baby in the bud. In fact, I suggest that all like-minded UND fans, especially those who have been critical of NDSU's twenty-year sprint to DI, to get in contact with your new AD and let him know what a huge mistake it'd be for UND to go DI.

[IowaBison]

[UND Fan]

Well, I'd suggest bringing up that study if UND looks at moving to DI, RD17. Better yet, I suggest you write a letter to the Grand Forks Herald warning UND not to go DI - better nip this baby in the bud. In fact, I suggest that all like-minded UND fans, especially those who have been critical of NDSU's twenty-year sprint to DI, to get in contact with your new AD and let him know what a huge mistake it'd be for UND to go DI.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tony - you have been making a lot of great points in a very unconfrontational way recently. Not sure why you would rip RD17! He simply alluded to this report and gave a one sentence synopsis of its findings! Plus, by adding "in most cases" he acknowledged that some moves to DI were beneficial.

[Bison Dan]

Tony - you have been making a lot of great points in a very unconfrontational way recently. Not sure why you would rip RD17! He simply alluded to this report and gave a one sentence synopsis of its findings! Plus, by adding "in most cases" he acknowledged that some moves to DI were beneficial.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it all depends on the school. It's like the diiis moving to dii, how many will be powerhouses in dii? Very few. Same thing for dii moving to DI. Everyone knows this and these studies provide very little information that's not already known. Each school has their own strenghts and weakness for the move and how they handle their weaknesses in the move will tell how successful they will be.

[sultan]

I guess Tony only wants to hear the stories that are positive towards moves to Division I. It seems to me UND needs to hear both sides of the story if they are going to make the right decision.

[PCM]

Well, I'd suggest bringing up that study if UND looks at moving to DI, RD17. Better yet, I suggest you write a letter to the Grand Forks Herald warning UND not to go DI - better nip this baby in the bud. In fact, I suggest that all like-minded UND fans, especially those who have been critical of NDSU's twenty-year sprint to DI, to get in contact with your new AD and let him know what a huge mistake it'd be for UND to go DI.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your ire is misdirected, Tony. It's the NCAA you should be upset with for making such statements as:

The study, unveiled June 25 at the Division II Chancellors and Presidents Summit in Orlando, reveals a decrease in average net revenues in Division II athletics departments that increase spending or reclassify divisions.

"Often, perhaps even generally, the decisions are made because of significant external influence, because of the perceived importance of divisional status to the reputation of the school, or because of the unsupported belief that

[ndsubison]