SCCC Still Cast Stones in Glass Houses

[ScottM]

Yep, those paleo-liberal, white do-gooders at SCCC still haven't done too much about the systemic racism on their campus. Perhaps they've been too busy protesting UND's nickname to handle their own problems.

PioPravda

[Goon]

SCCC a second rate liberal arts institution, the president of that second rate school should be ashamed of himself. Of course this article was probably in the back of the red star.

[mksioux]

I read the story in the Star Tribune.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/1592/3433566.html

I think it's obvious that SCSU is overcompensating for their image problem by protesting the Fighting Sioux nickname. It seems to me that they're so worried about being called racist that they are going out of their way to prove that they are not.

Having said that, I doubt the problems are as bad as this report/study seems to indicate. I don't know anything about this "behavorial science firm" Nicholas and Associates, Inc., but it doesn't seem too professional to me. Look at what they recomend. A hiring freeze of potential faculty and staff of color until there is a conducive and supportive environment on campus? The firing of "several" vice-presidents? These seem more like the recomendations of a liberal special interest group than an objective and professional consulting firm.

I admit that I don't know the underlying facts behind these allegations. However, I think we, as Sioux fans, should be careful not to fly off the handle and call SCSU a racist institution. It could be that they are under attack by the politically correct cultural marxists...just like UND is...just like the rest of the country is. I know it's frustrating that SCSU seems to be taking their problems out on our nickname, but remember that most the SCSU community does not agree with Saigo's opposition to the Sioux nickname. We should direct our verbal and written jabs at Saigo...not the entire SCSU community.

[The Sicatoka]

mksioux:

I agree with you on the point that we daren't rush to judgement based on this group of unknowns' report.

However, this is the third report in eight years. It sound like the fourth confirmation is on its way.

But even leaving all that aside, the most damning part of all of this to me is that the US Department of Justice has been (and I think still is) involved. They've been sued (and I believe lost) for some of the practices and behaviors mentioned in these articles.

The point here is clear:

Their hockey arena may be the "National Concrete Center", but their house is glass and yet they still choose to throw stones.

[mksioux]

I agree with the categorization of SCSU casting stones in a glass house. And while I would disagree with any school taking exception to the Sioux nickname, SCSU in particular (given these allegations) has absolutely no business taking the "racial highground" and looking down upon UND.

I'm just very skeptical of this "cultural survey" by Nicholas and Associates. It seems like the group likely has an agenda. As the article in the Star Tribune states, the "survey" calls for the University to ``fire several vice presidents and deans who are known to be marginally effective and non-progressive,'' and stop hiring potential faculty and staff of color until there is a conducive and supportive environment on campus."

What do they mean by "non-progressive" administrators? "Non-progressive" to many liberals means anyone who is conservative or who doesn't necessarily believe in racial preferences. Notice that they don't recommend limiting the firings to people who actually engaged in racist behavior, just "non-progressives." In other words, fire every conservative and moderate and replace them with "progressive" leftists. That, to me, indicates an agenda.

And Department of Justice involvement means little. There was DOJ involvement with UND too and few of us (other than JBB) would consider UND a racist institution.

[ScottM]

The DOJ investigation at SCCC is different than what transpired at UND. DOJ is conducting an active civil investigation into SCCC's policies and practices regarding treatment of minority students and faculty. DOJ's Civil Rights division is heading the investigation, unlike the relatively toothless Dept of Education group that looked at UND. If action is warranted, the feds could bring an action action SCCC. Moreoever, SCCC is also the subject of a number of private, civil rights suits brought by some former/current faculty.

Private studies and reports from "independent" third-parties will probably mean little at the end of the day. Saigo and the rest of the SCCC admin are probably of the opinion that if they protest UND's name, it will somehow make them look more "progressive" and less like a bunch of jack-offs who can't handle their own affairs.

[mksioux]

I didn't realize the extent of the DOJ involvement at SCSU. But it is still just an investigation at this point correct? If the DOJ brings an action against SCSU, then that would be significant.

SCSU may have serious race problems...I have no idea what is truly going on there. My main point was that this new "cultural survey" doesn't appear to be worth much.

In general, I'm just very skeptical of people who cry "racist." I like to see who is making the allegations and whether they have an agenda. I also like to see specifics on the facts. Until then, I will withhold judgment. But, I agree that it is fair to criticize SCSU for criticizing another institution's nickname that they "perceive" to be racist, while they are under investigation for "real" racism.

[Taz Boy]

Not sure if this is posted elsewhere already, but I really liked this article by Dave DeLand. Straightforward and to the point.

Go Sioux!

taz

[Goon]

By Eric O'Link Complete with the Goon's analysis

When the

[fightonsioux]

Taz or anybody!

Do you have a copy of the DeLand column. I couldn't find it on their website anymore.

[PCM]

5 December, 2002

St. Cloud Times

DeLand column: Sioux nickname feud shouldn't be an issue

Dave DeLand

Staff Writer

If you're looking for a challenge, get a large group of people together and try to get 81 percent of them to agree on something. Anything. It isn't easy to do, certainly not on any substantive issue.

And yet, as the St. Cloud State men's hockey team prepares to renew its rivalry with North Dakota and revisit the controversy over the Sioux nickname, we can apply the 81 percent quotient even to this hotly debated subject.

In March, the Peter Harris Research Group released the results of a poll of 352 American Indians (62 percent of them residents of reservations) about the use of Indian nicknames for sports teams.

Those results were surprising - particularly to caterwauling proponents of abolishing such nicknames.

Said the Harris report: "Asked if high school and college teams should stop using Indian nicknames, 81 percent of Native American respondents said no. As for pro sports, 83 percent of Native American respondents said teams should not stop using Indian nicknames, mascots, characters and symbols."

Despite what you hear from activists and from those who have made the issue a rallying point for white liberal guilt, the American Indian population as a whole doesn't see the issue of sports nicknames as a problem.

So, why has it become one? Why are we wasting so much time, energy and resources fighting a battle that doesn't concern the overwhelming majority of those who ostensibly are the most directly affected?

Because, in the brave new world of political correctness, it takes only a small group to cause a major ruckus.

Nowhere has the P.C. flag flown higher than at St. Cloud State, where protests have accompanied all recent visits by the North Dakota men's hockey team (although not for other lesser-attended sports). SCSU's administration has made several sanctimonious pronouncements on the subject, as well as entreaties to the NCAA.

All of this comes from a school that in recent years has been accused of racism, sexism and ageism, and that on Tuesday agreed to spend $1.25 million to settle a lawsuit charging anti-Semitism.

There may be no university in the nation that has more well-publicized discrimination problems than St. Cloud State, which is absolutely the last institution that should be telling North Dakota how to conduct itself on such matters.

On Friday, the SCSU hockey team gets its first look at North Dakota's opulent Engelstad Arena, which since it opened last year has become a focal point for the bitterness, strife and stratification between activists and those who revere the Sioux nickname.

The arena and its grounds are sprinkled with Sioux references; in effect, the "Taj-Ma-Ralph" is the late Ralph Engelstad's $104 million, one-finger salute to those trying to abolish a tradition that Engelstad was a part of as a North Dakota player half a century ago.

Perhaps the most valid perspective on all of this comes from North Dakota goaltender Marc Ranfranz, who is one-eighth Sioux and whose father is president of the Flandreau-Santee Sioux tribe in South Dakota.

"I hope, for myself, that they don't change (the nickname)," Ranfranz said in an interview with U.S. College Hockey Online. "I honor it. I enjoy it. I think it's a great nickname and logo. It makes me feel proud when I come into the rink and see the Sioux logo all over."

And if calling North Dakota the Sioux doesn't bother Ranfranz, or 81 percent of American Indians, why should it bother the rest of us?

If the same people who are so zealous and adamant in their efforts to change nicknames instead devoted those resources toward changing the bleak realities faced by American Indians on many reservations, the world would be a much better place ...

No matter what it called its sports teams.

This column is the opinion of Times sports editor Dave DeLand. Contact him at 255-8771 or by e-mail at ddeland@stcloudtimes.com

[U2Bad1]

What the Holy heck is going on at St Cloud??

Besides the whole student being assaulted thing, how the heck do you think a booth meant to give support to Israel is anti-semitic? Now they want the college republicans to remove the israeli flag from their booth? This is getting way the hell out of hand.

[PCM]

During a discussion about the display, which Karasik said she thought was anti-Semitic, Spoehr started taking pictures of the booth. Spoehr said he wanted to photograph members of the College Republicans for the group's use.

Karasik, who teaches community studies, said she asked him to stop taking pictures of her because she thought her privacy was being violated and she didn't want to be photographed in front of "anti-Semitic material."

It's not only nutty, but funny as hell. Here's a clue for Karasik: You can't complain about having your right to privacy violated when you're voluntarily in a public place. And since when did a booth supporting Israel and the Israeli flag become anti-Semitic?

It's no wonder SCSU is getting sued for anti-Semitism. Some of the university's professors don't even know what it is.

[Goon]

The DOJ investigation at SCCC is different than what transpired at UND. DOJ is conducting an active civil investigation into SCCC's policies and practices regarding treatment of minority students and faculty. DOJ's Civil Rights division is heading the investigation, unlike the relatively toothless Dept of Education group that looked at UND.

Scott,

I am glad that you brought that up because if you listen to the JBB, Vivian Nelson, Glenda Miskens (losers) of the world you would be given the impression that that UND was a racist organization where we were oppressing Indian students at UND, and there is an ongoing investigation at UND when its not the case. However, as Scott brought SCCC has way more problems than UND, as we already knew. So, here is my question why isn't the clowns at SCCC minding their own business? Why does the president of SCCC still have his job? Why hasn't he been fired yet?

[SDSUFAN]

This thread is about denial. Does seven D1 Hockey national championships justify this denial?

[jimdahl]

This thread is about denial. Does seven D1 Hockey national championships justify this denial?

This thread is about SCSU.

SCSU doesn't even have one D1 national hockey championship. Regardless, I fail to see the relationship between SCSU's lack of athletic success and the problems with racism and anti-semitism that pervade their campus. Yes, we do see a certain irony in the institution that's the loudest critic of UND's nickname being continuously in the news and under Federal investigation for institutional racism.

Don't feel leftout, I'm sure sometime soon SDSU will have some problem with racism on their campus and jump on the nickname-protesting distraction-from-their-own-problems bandwagon like NDSU.

[ScottM]

I've spent enough time in St. Cloud on client matters to know that place is very insular and provincial, three 4-year colleges in the area notwithstanding. I'm also not surprised that some idiot faculty member got into it with a member of the student body. Same thing would probably happen at UND for the nickname or Israel, or anything else "offensive" to the PC nazis.

Even though the private anti-Semitism suits seem to be settled, there are still ongoing investigations into SCCC's atmosphere for blacks and other racial minorities. Pres Saigo had a whiny, CYA letter in the Strib defending SCCC's action in settling the suit. Effectively he passed the buck to previous administrations.

[Goon]

This thread is about denial. Does seven D1 Hockey national championships justify this denial?

Personally I am getting tired of peoples jealousy towards the Univeristy of North Dakota, can't beat them in fund raising so lets try to take the moral high ground. Oh, yeah SDSU is such progressive university. That is what it boils down to jealousy.

Yep your right lets change the name because 100-200 people want it done, not to mention that 12,000 fans that are in support of the name at any given time while a hockey game is going on. From a business stand point it doesn't even make economical sense. But we are talking about arts and science students that have nothing better to do with their time. Yep your right lets just cave right in. No problem lets just do away with anything that offends us, no matter how small the number is. Lets look at all the problems at SCCC so when the spot light is on them lets try to refocus the attention someone else. I would really be proud of a college professor getting into with a fan, that is really classy. Yep probably a sociology professor or a english professor.

[Goon]

SCSU doesn't even have one D1 national hockey championship.

Or a NCAA tourney win for that matter.

[SDSUFAN]

a

Personally I am getting tired of peoples jealousy towards the Univeristy of North Dakota, can't beat them in fund raising so lets try to take the moral high ground. Oh, yeah SDSU is such progressive university. That is what it boils down to jealousy.

Yep your right lets change the name because 100-200 people want it done, not to mention that 12,000 fans that are in support of the name at any given time while a hockey game is going on. From a business stand point it doesn't even make economical sense. But we are talking about arts and science students that have nothing better to do with their time. Yep your right lets just cave right in. No problem lets just do away with anything that offends us, no matter how small the number is. Lets look at all the problems at SCCC so when the spot light is on them lets try to refocus the attention someone else. I would really be proud of a college professor getting into with a fan, that is really classy. Yep probably a sociology professor or a english professor.

Oh I get it. 12000 Beer sloshing, and hockey hungry fans cant be wrong. And do these 12,000 run the entire state of North Dakota? Jealous of beer sloshing hockey fans. No way Jose. Going D1, did you not get the message Jim and Goon?

[SDSUFAN]

Jim and Goon:

Another thing, if I would rather read a good book than watch hockey, even if it was SDSU or UNO, how could I be jealous. I live less than 100 miles from Omaha and could watch hockey in Sioux Falls, Sioux City and Omaha.

Not interested and not hardly jealous.

If you refer to a friend with offensive nickname and the friend says to stop, would you not do that? Why throw the 12,000 number in here, it means nothing in the eyes of Native Americans. How many Native American hockey players do you have? Ask your native americans friends are they honored by your logo? If so why is this small vocal minority have two web sites about your wonderful UND?

When will you thick-head Norskies and Polocks get a clue on this issue? I guess you are much like Trent Lott, who says he did not mean to be racist with his comments at Strom Thurmonds Birthday Party. Joe Madison African-American who was on CSPAN'S Washington Journal last Friday raise this question about Trent Lott, and its fitting to UND denial of the offensiveness of use of the logo. Joe's question was" If Lott did not mean to be racist, what then did he mean? If The UND Logo is not meant to be offensive, then what does it mean?

[The Sicatoka]

"Asked if high school and college teams should stop using Indian nicknames, 81% of Native American respondents said no."

Peter Harris Research Group,

as reported in Sports Illustrated, March 4, 2002

In America when you follow the will of the majority you are doing what your friend asks.

[YaneA]

Oh, I get it, SDSU Fan. Your postings are dripping with sarcasm; otherwise, why would you refer to North Dakotans as thicked headed Norskies and Polacks?

By the way, we do have a Native American hockey player on the team--Marc Ranfranz, goalie. He got his first start this past weekend and shut out Canisius, 6-0. He's a stong supporter of the nickname and logo, FYI.

[SDSUFAN]

Good for Marc Ranfranz. If he were to protest the logo, how long would he last on the team? Would he get playing time? So if does not protest then must be okay to use the logo. Here we go again down the path of denial. Have a nice trip.

If you dont mean to be offensive to Native Americans, what do you mean?

How is that Native Americans feel honored with your use of the logo? Ask a few of them on campus if they feel honored by your offensive use of the logo.

[Goon]

Oh by the way SDSU fan I might as well let you know this, THE NAME IS NOT GOING ANY WHERE. So the 100+ P.C. Nazis go ahead talk about this issu till your blue in the face, no one is listening. Give it up... Go throw some stones in your glass house.