bisonguy Posted February 5, 2005 Share Posted February 5, 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoggy Posted February 5, 2005 Share Posted February 5, 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted February 7, 2005 Share Posted February 7, 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted February 10, 2005 Share Posted February 10, 2005 So it would be more cost-effective for NDSU to build an arena for hockey, or retrofit an existing arena to be capable of housing an ice sheet? How could it be better to have a sport for women in which the budgets not including financial aid are greater than that of Equestrian, even if it brings in miniscule revenue? UND's revenue projections for women's hockey show a loss in excess of $190k, whereas the expenses for Equestrian aren't that much. btw- The Ohio State University does sponsor Equestrian, along with schools such as Auburn, Georgia, Kentucky, Oklahoma State, and South Carolina. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Since equestrian isn't sponsored by the NCAA, does it even have a scholarship limit? I understand the concept of adding a "sport" like this in an attempt to address the Title IX issue, but my problem with it is that it's a blatant attempt to follow the letter of the law but clearly not its spirit. There are sports NDSU doesn't currently have for women that are sponsored by the NCAA, and for which there probably is at least somewhat of a local demand, particularly when compared to the probable complete lack of demand for equestrian. Examples would be tennis, swimming and gymnastics, sports which are offered at the high school level in ND and MN. Hockey may not be practical due to the lack of facilities, but that presumably wouldn't be the case with tennis, swimming (at least I assume NDSU has a pool) and gymnastics. I suspect it will only be a matter of time before people like Martha Burke and Chris Voelz make it a crusade to challenge schools' attempting to be Title IX compliant by adding sports not recognized/sanctioned by the NCAA and for which there is little or no demand by former or current students at that particular school. BTW, I checked out Ohio St.'s athletic site and I didn't see any mention of equestrian. Are you sure they offer it as a sport? Perhaps it's just a phy-ed class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NDSU grad Posted February 10, 2005 Share Posted February 10, 2005 Since equestrian isn't sponsored by the NCAA, does it even have a scholarship limit? I understand the concept of adding a "sport" like this in an attempt to address the Title IX issue, but my problem with it is that it's a blatant attempt to follow the letter of the law but clearly not its spirit. There are sports NDSU doesn't currently have for women that are sponsored by the NCAA, and for which there probably is at least somewhat of a local demand, particularly when compared to the probable complete lack of demand for equestrian. Examples would be tennis, swimming and gymnastics, sports which are offered at the high school level in ND and MN. Hockey may not be practical due to the lack of facilities, but that presumably wouldn't be the case with tennis, swimming (at least I assume NDSU has a pool) and gymnastics. I suspect it will only be a matter of time before people like Martha Burke and Chris Voelz make it a crusade to challenge schools' attempting to be Title IX compliant by adding sports not recognized/sanctioned by the NCAA and for which there is little or no demand by former or current students at that particular school. BTW, I checked out Ohio St.'s athletic site and I didn't see any mention of equestrian. Are you sure they offer it as a sport? Perhaps it's just a phy-ed class. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Equestrian is recognized by the NCAA as an emerging sport, and they state... "An emerging sport is a sport recognized by the NCAA that is intended to provide additional athletics opportunities to female student-athletes. Institutions are allowed to use emerging sports to help meet the NCAA minimum sports-sponsorship requirements and also to meet the NCAA's minimum financial aid awards." ...so I don't think there would ever be a push for some kind of Title IX lawsuit. Equestrian is cheap with a high number of participants, which I don't think the other sports you mentioned can claim. Emerging sports Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted February 10, 2005 Share Posted February 10, 2005 Equestrian is recognized by the NCAA as an emerging sport, and they state... "An emerging sport is a sport recognized by the NCAA that is intended to provide additional athletics opportunities to female student-athletes. Institutions are allowed to use emerging sports to help meet the NCAA minimum sports-sponsorship requirements and also to meet the NCAA's minimum financial aid awards." ...so I don't think there would ever be a push for some kind of Title IX lawsuit. Equestrian is cheap with a high number of participants, which I don't think the other sports you mentioned can claim. Emerging sports <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I stand corrected to an extent, as I was unaware that the NCAA recognized the existence of so-called "emerging sports," although I can only imagine the problems UND would have if it were to attempt to drop very expensive women's hockey in favor of cheaper alternatives like bowling, badminton and archery. I still think that it's questionable ethically, although apparently not legally, for a school to forego adding sports which have a longstanding tradition of participation in that particular geographical area at the youth and high school level, i.e. gymnastics, swimming (which I would classify as a relatively inexpensive high-participation sport) and tennis, in favor of a sport like equestrian in which you'd be hard-pressed to find anybody in the state who has competed in an actual competition. There are obviously all kinds of people in ND and MN who have ridden horses extensively, but that's far different from the actual sport of equestrian. On the one hand, I suppose you can't fault schools for taking advantage of an NCAA-approved loophole making it easier and cheaper to comply with Title IX. But I assume you also see the potential for abuse if schools are allowed to drop (or not add) sports deemed too expensive, even if popular in a particular region, in favor of cheap, high-participation sports like several of the "emerging sports" apparently are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NDSU grad Posted February 10, 2005 Share Posted February 10, 2005 I stand corrected to an extent, as I was unaware that the NCAA recognized the existence of so-called "emerging sports," although I can only imagine the problems UND would have if it were to attempt to drop very expensive women's hockey in favor of cheaper alternatives like bowling, badminton and archery. I still think that it's questionable ethically, although apparently not legally, for a school to forego adding sports which have a longstanding tradition of participation in that particular geographical area at the youth and high school level, i.e. gymnastics, swimming (which I would classify as a relatively inexpensive high-participation sport) and tennis, in favor of a sport like equestrian in which you'd be hard-pressed to find anybody in the state who has competed in an actual competition. There are obviously all kinds of people in ND and MN who have ridden horses extensively, but that's far different from the actual sport of equestrian. One the one hand, I suppose you can't fault schools for taking advantage of an NCAA-approved loophole making it easier and cheaper to comply with Title IX. But I assume you also see the potential for abuse if schools are allowed to drop (or not add) sports deemed too expensive, even if popular in a particular region, in favor of cheap, high participation sports like several of the "emerging sports" apparently are. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think I can kind of see your point, but I think you're opening up a can of worms if you approach the subject in that manner. According to the NCAA website there's about 10,000 people nationwide that compete at equestrian at the high school level, while there's only a handful of schools that sponsor the "sport". So I think providing opportunities for girls to compete is the important thing, regardless of sport. If feminists are going to go after equestrian, they'll also have to go after all the universities that recently started offerring women's crew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted February 10, 2005 Share Posted February 10, 2005 I think I can kind of see your point, but I think you're opening up a can of worms if you approach the subject in that manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supertrex Posted February 10, 2005 Share Posted February 10, 2005 And for that I am glad since NDSU can focus on a much more cheaper and popular sport in D1 mens hoops and at the same time they can have a womens team competing at the NCAA's highest level that will be making money not losing it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hey, is anyone going to the NDSU v. Mayville State game??? Should be amazing to witness that level of competition... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NDSU grad Posted February 10, 2005 Share Posted February 10, 2005 Essentially, my question is in a situation where a school isn't Title IX compliant and must add a women's sport, does local interest or demand necessarily play any role in the university's decision as to which sport to add? If a group of NDSU female students who were competitive swimmers, tennis players or gymnasts filed a complaint over the the addition of equestrian instead of one of their sports--which clearly are more popular locally in terms of participation and history-- would they have a leg to stand on? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm definitely no lawyer, but I just can't see where the students would have a leg to stand on. Even though the original intent of Title IX has been bastardized by liberal activist judges (end of political rant), it would be a huge stretch to interpret it as giving precedence to local interests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted February 10, 2005 Share Posted February 10, 2005 I'm definitely no lawyer, but I just can't see where the students would have a leg to stand on. Even though the original intent of Title IX has been bastardized by liberal activist judges (end of political rant), it would be a huge stretch to interpret it as giving precedence to local interests. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The interesting thing is that I believe "emerging sports" were recognized by the NCAA largely for the purpose of assisting schools like Minnesota, Ohio State, Wisconsin, etc. who already offered all or nearly all traditional women's sports, but due to the huge number of football scholarships at the I-A level, and having men's sports like hockey and wrestling, Title IX compliance was essentially impossible without adding new women's sports to the list of those recognized by the NCAA. I highly doubt that the legislative intent was ever to allow these "emerging sports" to actually REPLACE more traditionally popular women's sports. Of course, this isn't necessarily provable or frankly even relevant to NDSU's situation, but I can't help thinking that action may be eventually taken by the NCAA if schools start utilizing some of these relatively inexpensive "emerging sports" in lieu of more traditional and popular sports. Time will tell, but it just seems doubtful that the intent was to essentially replace swimming or tennis with equestrian or badminton just so the school can save money without regard for what women actually are interested in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bisonguy Posted February 10, 2005 Share Posted February 10, 2005 UND92,96 NDSU hasn't even declared that Equestrian would be added, it's merely speculation at this point. However, it does make sense as NDSU is a major partner in the North Dakota Horse Park(especially the indoor arena) and has Equine Science and Veterinary programs. Synergy between athletics and academics . The maximium number of grants for Equestrian is 15. btw- women's hockey was an NCAA emerging sport in the mid-90's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoggy Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 Equestrian is cheap with a high number of participants, which I don't think the other sports you mentioned can claim. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The other sports you're referring to are swimming and tennis, as stated by UND 92,96. I would think tennis would be much cheaper, but not as many participants. I'm not sure on costs of swimming, but the facilities can be used by many others compared to equestrian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sicatoka Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 To meet Title IX (at any public school level) you need to meet two areas: 1. Effective Accommodation of Students Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bisonguy Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 To meet Title IX (at any public school level) you need to meet two areas: 1. Effective Accommodation of Students Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UND92,96 Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 btw- women's hockey was an NCAA emerging sport in the mid-90's. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I guess the difference would be that women's hockey probably actually is considered "emerging" around here considering how many high schools programs now exist in MN and even ND. I'm honestly not just trying to pick on NDSU or SDSU here. I'd really just like to know if down the road it would be an option (not a likelihood but an option) for UND and other non-IA schools--who don't need to worry about offsetting 85 football scholarships--to drop women's hockey at some point if the program simply lost too much money to be considered feasible, and replace it with something cheaper from the NCAA's list of "emerging sports." I'm sure it would open up a huge can of worms if that were to be attempted, but it makes for an interesting conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmrg74 Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 UND92,96 NDSU hasn't even declared that Equestrian would be added, it's merely speculation at this point. However, it does make sense as NDSU is a major partner in the North Dakota Horse Park(especially the indoor arena) and has Equine Science and Veterinary programs. Synergy between athletics and academics . The maximium number of grants for Equestrian is 15. btw- women's hockey was an NCAA emerging sport in the mid-90's. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> In other words, you can make equestrian overall cheaper by tieing in other academic programs with it. Thats how a lot of Powerhouse teams in EQ do it like Michigan State. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
star2city Posted February 11, 2005 Author Share Posted February 11, 2005 In other words, you can make equestrian overall cheaper by tieing in other academic programs with it. Thats how a lot of Powerhouse teams in EQ do it like Michigan State. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Exactly. While a scholarship in an equestrian sport may seem like a great deal, it is really only a “teaser”. Many students will bring their own horse for boarding, which the school will charge for and profit from. In addition, the “scholarship” athlete will have to put in time cleaning the barns, as well as feeding and grooming the school-owned horses, so the scholarship is really more like a work-study situation that gives equine departments free labor for animal care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakotadan Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 Is there any way we can consider our aviation program as a sport program? They have won us many titles at various competitions. Maybe we can just give all females in the program a scholarship and count it towards Title IX! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmrg74 Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 Is there any way we can consider our aviation program as a sport program? They have won us many titles at various competitions. Maybe we can just give all females in the program a scholarship and count it towards Title IX! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> They would do that with Cheerleading and Dance teams first. How would you guys like to be on that scholorship commitee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigmrg74 Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiouxMeNow Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 WHOA!! ndsu might get behind the curve early if that start an EQ program because they're ALREADY full of *HIT (sorry monster, couldn't resist! I think my 30 day moratorium is up anyway....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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