Raising admission standards

[mikejm]

This topic has been just under the radar for the longest time. The Herald has reported it in its news columns, and now editorialized AGAINST the administration's plan to raise admission standards for all students.

http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforkshe...ion/8479892.htm

I know from several conversations with him that Blais is VERY concerned about what raising required ACT scores by 5 points will do to his recruiting. He feels a lot of potential Sioux skaters will look at what the University requires (ACT) compared to what other schools need and more often than not choose the other, easier entrance requirement.

I have also talked to Kupchella's right hand man Phil Harmeson about this, and he just blows off any of Blais' concerns. There are provisions, he says, to allow student-athletes to appeal an admission denial.

I was sort of ambivalent about this, and thought perhaps Blais was just whining, but when I see the Herald actually calliing the higher standards a bad thing, I figure coach is on the right side of this, and that Harmeson and his boss are pushing things too far.

With the WCHA becoming such a competitive league, can we really afford to turn away potential recruits. Will we have the time to explain to them that there are "ways" around the high ACT standards? I'm not comfortable at all with this proposal.

BTW, Blais says it isn't a proposal, its already a done deal.

[Basil]

YES!! Let's make sure we can maintain the dumbest student body possible. Raise standards...what a crazy thought.

[Cratter]

What are Minnesota's automatic admission standards? They seem to do fine in hockey. It's for automatic acceptance. It's a nonfactor, because the administration will see he is here on scholarship to play hockey.

[BigGreyAnt41]

How does U of M get around this? Are they really that easy to get into, as well, or do their athletes apply for appeal? If their athlete's do that, then they most likely won't have a problem doing it here, either.

According to U of M's website, their average ACT composite for last years freshmen was 28.1. Only 7% was below 24. (I couldn't find an ACT that is required for admittance.)

I just looked on UND's website. They already have the new ACT requirements listed on the website. THe new requirements still ONLY require an ACT Composite of 22, unless you are a ND resident, in which case you only need a 21.

So I don't understand how this could be so bad. There are obviously other schools that do ok with higher admission standards, so why would we have so many more problems than they have?

[jloos]

I believe they are just raising the minimum standards that will result in automatic admission. The U of M had this when I applied their as an undergrad - at that time they use a forumula based on GPA and ACT - averaged out to about 24-25 w/ a 3.2-3.4 if I remember correctly. I imagine the minority of hockey players meet these, as long as they get the NCAA minimum they are let in. I'm sure UND is trying to do something similar. Interestingly UM raided their standards last year because too many students were being automatically admitted, not sure what it is at now, but I'm sure athletes don't have to worry. Look at Vanek, he can't even speak English but he was admitted.

As for UND they claim they are trying to increase the # of students, now they are implementing a procedure to decrease the # of students I have a feeling this is just for show, probably to get higher ratings for the University.

[Hansel]

How does U of M get around this? Are they really that easy to get into, as well, or do their athletes apply for appeal? If their athlete's do that, then they most likely won't have a problem doing it here, either.

According to U of M's website, their average ACT composite for last years freshmen was 28.1. Only 7% was below 24. (I couldn't find an ACT that is required for admittance.)

According to this this it says the average incoming freshmen ACT score at UM-TC was 24.8. The 28.1 number you cited was for a specific program the Carlson School of Management

Here are the UM-TC admission requirements

[Fedorov]

By accepting fewer students at UND, there will be fewer UND grads that leave GF or ND.

Seriously though, I like the idea of making it harder to get into UND. In my teaching experience there are definitely some people that don't belong there. However, sometimes it is the people with 4.0's in high schools that struggle the most. I do find it interesting that there is the goal of having more students, and then the goal of making it harder to attend UND. I guess they realized if we had more students, there still wouldn't be anywhere to park.

Edit: Jloos beat me to my last point.

[The Sicatoka]

Here's some history on this converation.

[The Sicatoka]

Here's the page listing the new standard for automatic admissions. And here they are:

Effective for Fall 2005, the following admission criteria will be used for freshmen and transfer students with less than 24 transferable credits.

In order to be admitted to the University of North Dakota, all students must meet the following minimum criteria:

- ACT composite score of 21 or SAT combined score of 990 for North Dakota residents, OR

- ACT composite score of 22 or SAT combined score of 1,030 for residents of states other than North Dakota

- Minimum high school cumulative GPA of 2.50 for all freshman applicants

- Completion of the high school core curriculum* which includes:

- Four units** of English, including the development of written and oral skill,

- Three units of mathematics, Algebra I and above

- Three units of laboratory science

- Three units of social studies

The Student Academics Standards Committee will consider applicants who have not met the minimum admission criteria.

*All students who graduate from high school, whether in North Dakota or any other state, in 1993 or later are required to complete a core curriculum before entering the University of North Dakota.

**A unit is equal to one year.

Please note those key words near the bottom:

"The Student Academics Standards Committee will consider applicants who have not met the minimum admission criteria."

I suspect student-athletes at many schools (cough-Big Ten-cough) are granted admission under that criteria.

What I was told when I asked about it (because I did go to the source and ask) was that students, when surveyed by UND, are looking for schools that are more selective in their admissions process and this is how UND is responding.

[Basil]

Look at Vanek, he can't even speak English but he was

he can't?

[jloos]

he can't?

It was a joke. One I suppose we CANNOT use anymore with our own European player coming in next year. I guess we'll just have to rely on his laziness.

[The Sicatoka]

UM-TC hypes that big minimum ACT ... for automatic admission .... but look at the average incoming freshman ACT score for the UM-TC General College: 20.4. I suspect, having read that page, that most student-athletes are admitted to that college.

And remember 20.4 is the average, meaning some higher ....

[phoenixin05]

UND raising the admission standards is a good idea for the school. It makes the school a better place to gain an education. That is the purpose of the school. It's a college before it's several sports franchises. Schools like Stanford and Duke have higher academic standards and still excel in sports like baseball, basketball, and football. There is no reason why the Sioux can't do the same in hockey. Hopefully for the sake of the college the standards are raised, because many people look at UND as a "party" school. Hopefully we can continue to attract players that can score in hockey as well as on tests.

[Fedorov]

because many people look at UND as a "party" school.

I have never heard that one before. I always heard the party school was SCSU.

[Cratter]

I have never heard that one before. I always heard the party school was SCSU.

according to "NDSU71UND74"

Through most of the sixties and seventies, Playboy used to publish a poll on the "best party schools in the nation".  The University of Wisconsin, with a tavern in the student union, always ranked number one for "big colleges" with UND number one for "small colleges".

[siouxjoy]

Just a quick comment about the enrollment increase: according to the Strategic Plan, the 14,000 student enrollment includes a lot more students taking courses by correspondence

UND Current Strategic Plan

It was looking at about 12,200 students "on campus" and about 1800 students taking correspondence courses

The fall enrollment at UND was 13,034 well above what the University was figuring. There does become a point where there are too many students (gigantic classes, overstretched advisors, etc.) .

[siouxjoy]

It also has been stated that the students that don't meet the automatic standards will more than likely still be admitted.

The coaches are worried about a delay in the committee's decision in an athlete finding out whether they have been admitted, has anyone said how long of a delay there will be? It may not even be a big deal, a student finds out in the same amount of time regardless.

I think the automatic standards just shorten the wait period for students with the automatic qualifications, rather than the opposite (create longer waiting periods for the other students)

[The Sicatoka]

I

[PCM]

If you

[The Sicatoka]

Another aspect to this:

How did athletic coaches get so powerful on academic campuses?

- Coach says to donors, "Admissions didn't let me get (hot recruit name here)."

- Unhappy donors say to university, "What check?"

Who ends up with more power and influence in that transaction?

[airmail]

Who ends up with more power and influence in that transaction?

It's the Golden Rule: Those with the gold, make the rules.

FWIW... An ACT score of 21/22 really isn't that hard to get, IMO. However, I know a few friends from the old days that had lesser scores, yet still did well in college and are currently successful in their careers. If these standards were implemented then, they may not have gotten the opportunity of a UND education. Yes, I realize there will be an appeal process, but I see most kids that aren't automatically admitted moving on. Moreso in the general student applicants vs. the athletic applicants. After all, the athletic applicants will probably get a "little more help" in the appeal process. See Golden Rule.

[The Sicatoka]

Another aspect to this conversation:

ACT Scores Show Significant Gains in the '90s

The national average ACT score in 1999 was 21 (and we all know that UND folks are above average).

[CVCL]

Not exactly related, but possibly some more light shed on the subject.

http://www.uscho.com/news/2004/04/21_008482.php

At least this article may help explain some anticipations that are occuring with

title IX and contract releases going on.

[jloos]

I

[BigGreyAnt41]

One of my professors did a study last year where he asked random bar admitted lawyers across the country to rate various law schools - he randomly picked them except UND and Princeton - less than 5% rated UND higher than Princeton. Princeton has never had a law school.

Well that's the law school, that's totally seperate from the undergrad school, but I do see what you're saying. All this tells me is that maybe the law school needs to get their name out there a little more.