CoteauRinkRat Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 It is kind of funny to step back and take a closer look at this situation. They should have picked a fight with the all the vulgar language and racist comments, rather than throw a fit and make a bunch of threats over students standing. I guess students standing was more of a problem to the ralph and UND than swearing was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawkota Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 I also am impressed by the thoughtfulness of the letter. In previous posts on this subject I would guess that I've come across as anti-student, even though that's not the case. I can't stand the vulgar cheers, they're tired and lack imagination, and I've never understood why its necessary to stand for an entire game, just for the sake of standing. Nevertheless, if I were a student, I would definitely be leery of the administration here, despite the obvious sincerity of the letter. There is a reason why the students feel they get the short end of the stick......they do. They are brushed aside in the administration's and FSC's grab for $$$$. Yeah, it's the nature of college sports these days, but that doesn't make it right. (We have to chase the money, every other school does it. It's actually worse for the students at other schools. Sound familiar?) Students are a huge part of game atmosphere and they deserve more respect than they've been getting. Student seating for example - from when the new arena was announced until the first game, half the lower bowl (although whether this is accurate I don't know) quickly became 3 sections and then 2 as soon as it became apparent the demand there was for season tickets. More recently, what did the students want as part of the deal to sit? As I understand it they wanted help from the arena in getting the rest of the crowd involved - school song lyrics on the big screen, chants rolling around the arena on the 360 board, less piped in music. What did they get? Nothing. Where is the incentive? I think that student section has gotten worse with every preceived slight from the administration and I don't think it's a coincidence. I have always thought it would be nice to recognize the student sections before every game - like after the Sioux are introduced and before the lights come up, spotlight the student sections. Maybe use the unbelievable video capabilities the arena has to get some student vs. non student cheer contests going on. Hokey stuff, I'm sure, but my point is that the students have to be made to feel that they are more important to the atmosphere of the arena than the non-student fan. So while I agree with everything in Roger Thomas' letter, I also think that the administration owes the students something first. Maybe an apology. BTW, I think the reaction on this thread from students to the letter proves that if you treat the students as adults, that is how they will behave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 I guess students standing was more of a problem to the ralph and UND than swearing was. They are two separate and legitimate issues. Both need to be dealt with for different reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillySioux Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 I think one point has gone unaddressed in this thread. Our nickname. Throughout the recent history of the nickname controversy, vulagrity from fans (yes mainly the opposing fans) utilizing our nickname and our own vulgarity while wearing Sioux on our chests has provided much ammunition for the "change the name crowd." Properly addressing the issue would hopefully remove a bullet from their rhetorical gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Properly addressing the issue would hopefully remove a bullet from their rhetorical gun. Very true. I also think that every time the mention of racist behavior at UND comes up, the opponents of American Indian-related nicknames are taking note and filing away the incidents for future reference. That's my greatest concern about all of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teamsioux Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Lawkota has some great points. Some students have "turned" against the athletic dept and the Ralph more and more as they get singled out in the media as the bad guys....and also because of unfulfilled promises to get the crowd into the game. And no the noise meter does not count as crowd involvement. These feelings of betrayal have left a FEW students not caring what comes out of their mouths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
U2Bad1 Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 The band used to be able to play over the "Who's He...." chant, but now in the new ralph they have the band so far back up in the rafters, that it is impossible to block out the chant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoteauRinkRat Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 They are two separate and legitimate issues. Both need to be dealt with for different reasons. I've never said they are not legitimate issues. My point was that UND and Kupchella can only pick so many fights before the students feel like they are realling getting screwed over and being forced by the administration to conform to their standards. They will only be happy when the students have one section in the upper bowl in the corner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 I said it earlier in this thread and I'll say it again: It does no good to point fingers and talk about who did what and said what in the past. The message in Roger's letter is very clear. If we don't do something to fix this situation ourselves, someone is going to fix it for us. And none of us are going to like those results. It's time for both sides to offer some constructive solutions and to start working together. Time is running out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoteauRinkRat Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 It's time for both sides to offer some constructive solutions and to start working together. Time is running out. I couldn't agree more with this. I'm not a student, haven't been one in a very long time, but as much as RT and others make it sound, this is all pointed at the students. The students do cause a majority of the problems of course, but they are not the only ones to blame. Both sides really need to make some concessions and come up with a compromise that "most" of the people involved will agree to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikejm Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 A couple of observations: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimdahl Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Oh, and the link to "School Songs" is broken. Should be: http://www.UND.nodak.edu/schoolsongs/ They keep moving things on me. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 I'm not a student, haven't been one in a very long time, but as much as RT and others make it sound, this is all pointed at the students. How can you say that? This is what Thomas said: We received severe criticism of the language used by our students and other fans during the playoff games in the Alerus. (Emphasis added) This is not just a student issue. We are going to work harder to enforce the language/conduct question for all fans. Yes, other fans swear and exhibit poor conduct and we plan to enforce improved conduct in those seating areas, too. The fact is, we have removed and not allowed them to return at later dates more non-student fans than students. (Emphasis added) This is part of the problem. Instead of working together as Sioux fans who have a common interest, the issue is constantly portrayed as an "everyone against the students" conspiracy. I have little hope that this issue will be resolved unless that attitude changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikejm Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 This is part of the problem. Instead of working together as Sioux fans who have a common interest, the issue is constantly portrayed as an "everyone against the students" conspiracy. I have little hope that this issue will be resolved unless that attitude changes. Amen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoteauRinkRat Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 I know RT said that, but I guess I really don't believe everything they tell us. Guess I'm the one to blame because I have portrayed this as "everyone against the students" conspiracy. It's all my fault, I talked to my uncle about this and he talked about attending games at the Winter Sports Complex and says that students today are in no way different than how they acted in their day. Not saying this is acceptable behavior by any means, but this argument dates back many many years and will continue forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedorov Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 I thought it was PCM vs. the students. My main concern is the timing of everything. It seems like after playing Wisconsin, we are more energetic than usual to get the crowd more into the game. At the same time, we are trying to remove some of the atmosphere. Even though it isn't technically directed at just the students, Chucky pointed it at the students. It will be hard for the students to get the public more into the game if we are seen as bad or having no credibility. I hope that everyone can pull together for a good finish of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikejm Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 At the same time, we are trying to remove some of the atmosphere. I fail to see how profanity adds one iota of positive to the "atmosphere". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedorov Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 I fail to see how profanity adds one iota of positive to the "atmosphere". I never said it was positive. It is part of the atmosphere though, and many posts recognize it has been there for a long time. Everyone needs to realize that if we do any of the cheers suggested (sieve, non-factor, etc.), it is still a negative cheer and against the sportsmanship disclaimer they read off all the time. So we are really just trying to change the degree of negativity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikejm Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Everyone needs to realize that if we do any of the cheers suggested (sieve, non-factor, etc.), it is still a negative cheer and against the sportsmanship disclaimer they read off all the time. So we are really just trying to change the degree of negativity. I'm having a hard time parsing this statement: by using profane cheers you are "trying to change the degree of negativity"? Huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jk Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 I am really impressed by the thoughtful nature of both RT's letter and the discussion of it on this forum. If RT wrote that himself, he is an awfully good writer for a person in his position. I think our (Sioux fans and advocates) goal should be to influence the outcome of the game by irritating and demoralizing opponents and by encouraging the home team. In addition to obviously winning more games, this would help recruiting (as who wouldn't want to play in front of such a crowd) and make the evening more enjoyable for fans. I don't think you can change the crowd's behavior just by telling them what to "not" do. Instead, perhaps they can be led away from the profanity by offering and promoting alternative cheers, as has been proposed by others here. It would be great if the accomplishment of RT's goal could also further "our" cause of making the Sioux crowd more of a factor in the contest. Perhaps we need a liaison in the Athletic Department and at the REA to help make some of these things happen. I extend my thanks to YaneA as well for her efforts this year. Maybe she could be retained by RT as the Assistant Athletic Director for Hockey Crowd Improvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fedorov Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 I'm having a hard time parsing this statement: by using profane cheers you are "trying to change the degree of negativity"? Huh? Sieve and non-factor are profane cheers? If you are going to try to read everything so literally, try reading it correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jk Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 I'm sorry if it violates a sportsmanship warning, but I believe a hockey crowd has a duty to be negative to the opposition. I know the opponents are just basically good kids who are pursuing their dreams at another institution, but let them consider it a life lesson in attempting to overcome adversity. Just keep the abuse witty and non-profane, and I consider it completely appropriate. In addition, as someone mentioned, they should turn off the music during warm-ups (at least some of them) and from time-to-time during the game to allow the taunting of the foes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YaneA Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Yeah, I still can't figure out the quote command.. jk said: Perhaps we need a liaison in the Athletic Department and at the REA to help make some of these things happen. I extend my thanks to YaneA as well for her efforts this year. Maybe she could be retained by RT as the Assistant Athletic Director for Hockey Crowd Improvement. YaneA replies: I accept! It's gotta pay better than my current state job! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCM Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 In addition, as someone mentioned, they should turn off the music during warm-ups (at least some of them) and from time-to-time during the game to allow the taunting of the foes. I believe they play music during warmups because the Sioux players like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mksioux Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Call me immature or socially irresponsible, but I don't mind a little vulgarity at hockey games, as long as it's creative and used sparingly. It's part of the fabric. I realize the presence of kids muddies the issue. I guess I think learning profanity at a hockey game is somehow better than learning it by listenting to rap music at a friend's house. (full disclosure: I don't have kids and I respect opposing opinions of those who do). Having said that, I agree there needs to be more coordinated cheers and they might as well be void of profanity. One way to gain student credibility is if a few of the new cheers are are edgy and/or funny despite the lack of profanity. They can't be complete vanilla fluff. Also, I think cooperation from the scoreboard operator would be helpful to "teach" non-students. And as another poster said, why not put the words to "Stand up and cheer" on the video board when the band is playing it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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