Did UND have least talented team in Big Sky?

[SiouxVolley]

Did UND have the least amount of talent in the Big Sky? Based on the first team and second team Big Sky list, UND had the fewest number, tying with Weber St. Even throwing in the Honorable Mentions, UND just barely exceeded Weber St. More Idaho State players were recognized for their play than UND players. By this measure, it seems possible that UND's coaching staff did the most with the least. Cal Poly also exceeded the performance of its standout athletes by finishing a several places higher in the standings. By contrast, Montana and Portland State did the least with the most.

Here's a list, with the first column the # of first teamer's, the second column the # of second teamer's, the third column the number of honorable mentions. The final column is a relative strength, with each 1st teamer getting 3 pts, a 2nd teamer 2 pts, and an honorable mention 1 pt. The higher the number, the more talent is on each team.

EWU 5 4 12= 35

Montana St 6 5 6= 34

N Ariz 4 4 11=31

Montana 4 1 12= 25

S Utah 2 5 6=22

Cal Poly 1 2 10=19

Portland St 0 2 13=17

N Colo 2 1 9=16

UC Davis 2 1 7=15

Sac St 0 3 8=14

Idaho St 1 1 6=11

North Dakota 1 0 8=11

Weber St 0 1 6=8

This talent rating system isn't scientific, but just for illustration of the relative strength of team talent, so don't get your panties in a bunch.

So did UND outperform it's talent? That would be a plus for the coaching staff. On the flip side, it would also indicate that UND recruiting is not going at all well.

Not surprisingly either that none of the secondary or linebackers received any votes. Moreover, Nelson and Brenneman will not be back, nor will the 3 senior offensive lineman, nor will Hanson, who were all honorable mention. So effectively, UND has the fewest # of stars returning (Hardin - listed for both WR and KR, and Miller for PK) as other teams have numerous underclassmen.

Other than WR and PK, at what positions will UND players significantly outperform the average Big Sky starter next year? Underclassmen on the OL may likely develop well, but defensively I just don't see the talent level approaching the Big Sky average even with another year of development under this coaching (or almost any coaching).

It seems apparent that UND needs its redshirt freshman and new recruits to outperform current starters, or that current underclassmen have major improvements, for UND to have any hope of being mid-level Big Sky next year. UND seems destined to have the least number of standouts in the Big Sky next year.

[UND92,96]

One thing to keep in mind is that several of UND's better players missed too much time (or were too hobbled when they did play) to be seriously considered for all-conference honors, such as Kleason, Goodman, Daryl Brown and McGill.

[Bison06]

I wouldn't necessarily draw any conclusions about a team's talent completely based on All-conference teams or other post season accolades.

Voters for these types of things are notorious for voting for the good players on the best teams to be recognized for individual honors.

The Heisman Trophy is either the best or worst example of this depending on how you see it.

[JohnboyND7]

Theoretically, Team A could have literally....3 or 4 really great players, and the rest of the team could be complete garbage. Those 3 or 4 players make the All-Conference team. Team finishes 3-8.

Team B has 1 really great player, and is consistently pretty good throughout the rest of the lineup. Team finishes 8-3.

Which team is more talented?

[geaux_sioux]

Conference teams are just the top teams in the conference slapping eachother on the backs. It has more to do with reputation (Montana) than production and skill.

[SiouxVolley]

Theoretically, Team A could have literally....3 or 4 really great players, and the rest of the team could be complete garbage. Those 3 or 4 players make the All-Conference team. Team finishes 3-8.

Team B has 1 really great player, and is consistently pretty good throughout the rest of the lineup. Team finishes 8-3.

Which team is more talented?

The team that wins is the better team. The team with more talent hs better individual statistics and gets more NFL interest - whether as a draft choice, free agent, or camp invite.

So tell me, does it work that way in the MVFC?

So your saying that the bizon have marginal talent, yet excellent coaching, so that the bizon win anyway?

[SiouxVolley]

Conference teams are just the top teams in the conference slapping eachother on the backs. It has more to do with reputation (Montana) than production and skill.

The QB position in the most pivotal position on the team. When uND's QBs performed the best, UND won. When UND's QBs performed more poorly - in large part because the opponnts defense was a step faster or stronger than UND's line - UND lost.

The data I presented indicates that the talent gap betwee UND an MSU/EWU is enormous. Perhaps that is the real reason the uND was absolutely demolished by those two teams: EWU and MSU are simply more talented at nearly every matchup. Hanson never stood a chance, because every matchup in the trenches was overwhelmingly in EWU and MSU's favor.

So 20 different UND players are going to vastly exceed their 2012 performance? Don't buy that at all. Hanson (and Hendrickson) were key cogs in this years play, and without sustaining the QB play at that level, UND will be in for Weber St type 2013 season.

[Matt]

_{I may agree with this idea of doing the "most with the least" thing had the player roster been assigned to the coaching staff rather than being hand picked by them. If the staff has the least talented team in the league, that is nobody's fault but their own.}

[JohnboyND7]

The team that wins is the better team. The team with more talent hs better individual statistics and gets more NFL interest - whether as a draft choice, free agent, or camp invite.

So tell me, does it work that way in the MVFC?

So your saying that the bizon have marginal talent, yet excellent coaching, so that the bizon win anyway?

Ok. That is one way of thinking of it. Who is more talented? The team with 3 great players(all going late in the draft) or the team with no one getting drafted but is good across the board?

Elon has probably the best player in the FCS. They aren't a more talented team than NDSU. Who will probably not have anyone drafted this season.

The "bizon" have good talent across the board. Montana State has good talent across the board. Not getting many(any) on a All-Conference team doesn't mean there is no talent. What it means is that there are 2 or 3 better players at that position elsewhere in the conference.

If UND has...for example the 4th best player at every position, are they less talented than...say...Idaho State who, in this example, has three second teamers, and a bunch of guys that are 5-15th best at their particular positions. I'd say no.

[SiouxVolley]

Ok. That is one way of thinking of it. Who is more talented? The team with 3 great players(all going late in the draft) or the team with no one getting drafted but is good across the board?

Elon has probably the best player in the FCS. They aren't a more talented team than NDSU. Who will probably not have anyone drafted this season.

The "bizon" have good talent across the board. Montana State has good talent across the board. Not getting many(any) on a All-Conference team doesn't mean there is no talent. What it means is that there are 2 or 3 better players at that position elsewhere in the conference.

If UND has...for example the 4th best player at every position, are they less talented than...say...Idaho State who, in this example, has three second teamers, and a bunch of guys that are 5-15th best at their particular positions. I'd say no.

If you would have read my post more clearly, I said "draft choice, free agent, or camp invite" and over the next four years. Of course the Big Sky (or MVFC or CAA) is going to have very limited numbers drafted, but not so limited that have pro interest in them. So your saying that Marcus Williams won't be drafted in another year, contrary to all the other bizon posters, or that no bizon players will see pro scouting or training camps?

The Big Sky Honorable Mention list often goes four deep: so each position goes 6 deep with 1st and 2nd teams. If you don't have a starter on the honorable mention list, he is likely to be in the bottom half of the conference performance wise. A team with the vast majority of its starters in the bottom half talent wise, like UND, is not going to perform well unless they have at total manimal at QB, RB, or LB.

Jameer Jackson clearly has the ability to be a high level Big Sky performer, joining Hardin and Miller. But who else would anyone bet on from this team?

[SiouxVolley]

_{I may agree with this idea of doing the "most with the least" thing had the player roster been assigned to the coaching staff rather than being hand picked by them. If the staff has the least talented team in the league, that is nobody's fault but their own.}

Don't disagree with that at all. Just saying we need 10 starters next year that substantially outperform the previous years performance. Whether they come from upgraded performances, redshirt freshman, true freshman, or JC transfers, I would take allcomers that upgrade 2012's lineup.

[geaux_sioux]

If you would have read my post more clearly, I said "draft choice, free agent, or camp invite" and over the next four years. Of course the Big Sky (or MVFC or CAA) is going to have very limited numbers drafted, but not so limited that have pro interest in them. So your saying that Marcus Williams won't be drafted in another year, contrary to all the other bizon posters, or that no bizon players will see pro scouting or training camps?

The Big Sky Honorable Mention list often goes four deep: so each position goes 6 deep with 1st and 2nd teams. If you don't have a starter on the honorable mention list, he is likely to be in the bottom half of the conference performance wise. A team with the vast majority of its starters in the bottom half talent wise, like UND, is not going to perform well unless they have at total manimal at QB, RB, or LB.

Jameer Jackson clearly has the ability to be a high level Big Sky performer, joining Hardin and Miller. But who else would anyone bet on from this team?

Kleason Anderson McGill Edwards Darryl Brown Goodman Sparks Mollberg and whoever starts at zeke lb.

[UND-FB-FAN]

Kleason Anderson McGill Edwards Darryl Brown Goodman Sparks Mollberg and whoever starts at zeke lb.

Kleason - no, coming off injury

Anderson - no, just coming off of freshman seson

McGill - no, coming off of ACL injury

Edwards - no, hasn't played at college level yet

Brown - no, he's been okay but not high level by any means - he just is our best corner but our secondary stinks so that doesnt say much

Goodman - no, linebackers were below average this year, including Goodman when he was able to stay on the field

Sparks - no, coaches don't even play him

Mollberg - no, just like Edwards he hasn't even played at the college level yet nevertheless started

C'mon people, let's be somewhat realistic here. You'd swear we just came off an undefeated season and were all on an emotional high.

[choyt3]

Kleason - no, coming off injury

Anderson - no, just coming off of freshman seson

McGill - no, coming off of ACL injury

Edwards - no, hasn't played at college level yet

Brown - no, he's been okay but not high level by any means - he just is our best corner but our secondary stinks so that doesnt say much

Goodman - no, linebackers were below average this year, including Goodman when he was able to stay on the field

Sparks - no, coaches don't even play him

Mollberg - no, just like Edwards he hasn't even played at the college level yet nevertheless started

C'mon people, let's be somewhat realistic here. You'd swear we just came off an undefeated season and were all on an emotional high.

So you are saying that NONE of those guys "has the ability to be a high level Big Sky performer"? Because I think that was the question that was asked. It's a subjective question. Step back from the ledge.

[geaux_sioux]

Kleason - no, coming off injury

Anderson - no, just coming off of freshman seson

McGill - no, coming off of ACL injury

Edwards - no, hasn't played at college level yet

Brown - no, he's been okay but not high level by any means - he just is our best corner but our secondary stinks so that doesnt say much

Goodman - no, linebackers were below average this year, including Goodman when he was able to stay on the field

Sparks - no, coaches don't even play him

Mollberg - no, just like Edwards he hasn't even played at the college level yet nevertheless started

C'mon people, let's be somewhat realistic here. You'd swear we just came off an undefeated season and were all on an emotional high.

The question was who has the ability to do it not who will next year.

[UND1]

If you would have read my post more clearly, I said "draft choice, free agent, or camp invite" and over the next four years. Of course the Big Sky (or MVFC or CAA) is going to have very limited numbers drafted, but not so limited that have pro interest in them. So your saying that Marcus Williams won't be drafted in another year, contrary to all the other bizon posters, or that no bizon players will see pro scouting or training camps?

The Big Sky Honorable Mention list often goes four deep: so each position goes 6 deep with 1st and 2nd teams. If you don't have a starter on the honorable mention list, he is likely to be in the bottom half of the conference performance wise. A team with the vast majority of its starters in the bottom half talent wise, like UND, is not going to perform well unless they have at total manimal at QB, RB, or LB.

Jameer Jackson clearly has the ability to be a high level Big Sky performer, joining Hardin and Miller. But who else would anyone bet on from this team?

Not a one!! And Miller will not be getting any of those NFL signings or invites, but is a decent to good punt returner in this particular conference for this particular year.

[UND-FB-FAN]

The question was who has the ability to do it not who will next year.

Both of those are quite subjective; one is based on judgment of talent/ability and the other is simply a prediction based on that talent judgment.

Even the coaches will tell you this team lacks quality Big Sky talent. Other than the true freshmen, Hardin, Jackson, Zeb Miller, and maybe a couple others, this team is deprived of Big Sky talent.

[UNDBIZ]

Not a one!! And Miller will not be getting any of those NFL signings or invites, but is a decent to good punt returner in this particular conference for this particular year.

I think you're confusing Millers (K vs RB).