Conference Realignments - Take 2

[The Sicatoka]

Just look at this picture, does this make any sense to you?!

Overlap it with air routes and the list of WICHE states and re-ask the question.

[star2city]

My only question does the UND administration agree with you. They have to write the checks. I believe they would like a more tighter footprint. Most athletics lose money? So where does that "extra" money come from? academics? the credit card?

Kupchella and his people actually believed UND would get in the Big Sky. Not sure that Kelley did, until it actually happened.

UND travel in the Big Sky is really no different than UND in the Great West. But with the transition over, we actually get reimbursed from the Big Sky when we had to pay the Great West to operate as a conference. The real question is: where did we get the "extra" money to travel in the Great West compared to NCC days. (And the answer is student fees + more reimbursement from the Ralph).

Isn't sports mainly about attendance? Mainly football and basketball? NDSU is a football first school. They will get the fans no matter what. Where UND seems to be struggling. UND needs a rival to get fan interest kick started again.

It's about all revenue sources: Fighting Sioux club membership, tickets, TV, advertising in arena, corporate sponsorships. Next year in the Big Sky, UND football will draw better than D2 days.

I believe it really is a race to FBS. UNDs greatest long term benefit would be build that stadium and really differentiate itself. We could get the whole state behind us and draw many out of staters for each football game like hockey. I think this would really excite the fan base. But unfortunately UND is basically stuck in FCS for the next twenty years or more thanks to the Alerus. Whereas NDSU was ready yesterday.

The only FBS option is west. The MAC has way too many options in the population rich east (UMass added, possibly Delaware, ,James Madison, Stony Brook later), to ever look west.

Its really only a matter of time before the Montana schools leave. Then UND is really an outlier. If the Dakota schools were in the Sky it might keep the Montanas in the Sky longer and possibly move to FBS together?

Million dollar question.

[star2city]

UND is in Grand Forks, right? As in, a city on the eastern border with Minnesota?

And Boise State, a school in a city near the Oregon border, may be joining the Big East.

West Virginia, a school in the Pittsburgh market, may be joining the Big 12.

The maps do show that ND is a bordering state to Montana, which has members in the Big Sky.

So your point is?

[UNDColorado]

I said their football program is awful year-in and year-out. I find it really funny that you seem to think that you know what the Big Sky's intentions were at the time. No one in Denver watches Big Sky athletics unless they are an alumni and you know that.

How would you know that? Do you spend time here regularly? You are just trying to push your own agenda and use whatever you can to get there. The Altitude Network is on basic cable out here btw. So "nobody" watching here is more people than the Fargo market ever will be; that is a fact.

[PierreYote]

And Boise State, a school in a city near the Oregon border, may be joining the Big East.

West Virginia, a school in the Pittsburgh market, may be joining the Big 12.

The maps do show that ND is a bordering state to Montana, which has members in the Big Sky.

So your point is?

1. Boise State is Big East in Football only. 4 or 5 trips at most. Big East TV money, bowl money and BCS bid.

2. WVU in Big 12 all sports. Big 12 TV money is huge, bowl money and BCS bid.

3. UND in all Big Sky sports. Big Sky TV money? good one.

With that said, I agree that UND did what is best for their university. There wasn't a MVFC invite. You can't leave football on an island. However, to spin it by using FBS or even worse BCS schools as an example that it will work is pure folly. I wish you the best in the Big Sky. You now give me a reason to care about the conference. I will cheer for you when you enter the league next year.

[star2city]

You are dead on with your data, but won't the recruiting philosophy have to change focus to go along with that? Looking at the media guide, about 60% of the football roster comes from states on the I-29/I-90/I-94 corridor or parts east. Overwhelmingly unbalanced MVFC-Big Sky media messaging (I didn't include kids from west of Jamestown or the Grand Forks kids in that estimate). There are definitely more kids from CA and AZ than there was prior to the D-1 move, but that's true for NDSU as well. It doesn't seem the recruiting base is changing much to coincide with a Big Sky media messaging focus to the west.

UND will always depend on Minnesota and Wisconsin for the bulk of recruiting. But unless and until the Summit League includes teams from there, the Summit League won't buy us anything. Any Summit League media presence stops at I-94 just outside of Moorhead and I-90 at the Minnesota border.

In fact, the Summit League as is would hurt UND, already disadvantaged as the most northernly school, because we will be less differentiated from the other Dakota schools. Our location demands that we become different to succeed.

I hope you don't think Terry V is the spokesman for all South Dakota. He is an SDSU hack and one of the reasons many USD people won't buy the Argus Leader, that and the Argus's totally biased coverage for SDSU over USD.

Agree he is a hack, but Stu Whitney has written the same kind of garbage over the past year. The Sioux Falls media is so infatuated by the Summit League because Sioux Falls gets to host the Summit Tournament. Those writers think they are really in the big time because one game a year they get to hob-nob with the 10th-string ESPN2 announcers.

We all get a chuckle down here when reading about NDSU fans thinking they have a shot in the Valley. The Valley is a basketball conference and they want winning basketball programs. Give us a few years and South Dakota is going to take over and dominate the Summit like we dominated the NCC in basketball the last 2 decades. NDSU has football history but USD has the basketball history.

Absolutely unreal, isn't it. The MVC turns down Air Force (which is appealing just on academics and stature alone) and NDSU fans think they can get it? Hilarious.

Truth is, the only way any Dakota schools get in the Valley is if there is a schism in that conference between the private and public schools. Then I could see a conference of the Dakotas, Missouri St, Indiana & Illinois St, SIU, UNI, and Wichita St forming. More likely, and probably a great idea already mentioned is for the Dakota 4 to band with the Montanas and build an awesome new western conference.

Not sure why there would ever be a private/public schism. Creighton (Big East possiblity) or Mo State (CUSA possibility) are long-shot flight risks. Had been talk about Illinois State going FBS, but the state of Illinois is an absolute basket case financially now.

The MVC has been holding out for St Louis (Rick Majerus has been pushing for the MVC). If St Louis doesn't get in the Big East basketball conference, that's the move the MVC would make.

[star2city]

1. Boise State is Big East in Football only. 4 or 5 trips at most. Big East TV money, bowl money and BCS bid.

2. WVU in Big 12 all sports. Big 12 TV money is huge, bowl money and BCS bid.

3. UND in all Big Sky sports. Big Sky TV money? good one.

With that said, I agree that UND did what is best for their university. There wasn't a MVFC invite. You can't leave football on an island. However, to spin it by using FBS or even worse BCS schools as an example that it will work is folly.

Someone from Pierre giving lectures on travel?

P.S. UND's athletic budget is more than twice USD's. I can understand USD's issues and concerns with the Big Sky and the travel situation.

[UNDColorado]

1. Boise State is Big East in Football only. 4 or 5 trips at most. Big East TV money, bowl money and BCS bid.

2. WVU in Big 12 all sports. Big 12 TV money is huge, bowl money and BCS bid.

3. UND in all Big Sky sports. Big Sky TV money? good one.

With that said, I agree that UND did what is best for their university. There wasn't a MVFC invite. You can't leave football on an island. However, to spin it by using FBS or even worse BCS schools as an example that it will work is folly.

These arguments are fine but the kicker is we will make it work quite well and a couple years down the road you will be scratching your head going "gee, maybe we should have taken a chance when we had it."

Time will tell on this of course but I would bet big money on it. Enjoy your bus league; as an alumnus out west I and MANY others are loving this move.

[PhillySioux]

Figured I'd check in on this thread to read about the Big East, Big XII, etc. But, it's more of the same as the last thread (despite the warning in the OP): garbage fake statistics and false arguments about how UND must focus on western ND and how the Big Sky is the only possible choice.

All you need to know is that Star2 has emotionally invested himself into hating the Summit league because he's bitter about the nickname retirement. He'll go to any length to prevent UND from joining that conference.

That's apparent, just read the lengths he goes in his posts to pigeonhole UND into the Big Sky - regardless if there are Montana schools there or not.

Just look at this picture, does this make any sense to you?!

Tell me, where would you put UNDs football program? It was the only choice and the MVFC was NDSUs only choice. To imply that either school has/had any other options is asinine.

[PierreYote]

These arguments are fine but the kicker is we will make it work quite well and a couple years down the road you will be scratching your head going "gee, maybe we should have taken a chance when we had it."

Time will tell on this of course but I would bet big money on it. Enjoy your bus league; as an alumnus out west I and MANY others are loving this move.

I'm sure you are happy. I would be as well if I lived in the mountain/pacific time zone. However, I am sure the other 95% of my alumni would be pretty pissed. Im sure it will pretty cool to be with 50 other UND locals at the UNC game.

Someday we might all meet up again. Whether we are both in the Big Sky or MVFC/Summit. I don't think the door is closed on either scenario nor the changing landscape of conferences.

[star2city]

I'm sure you are happy. I would be as well if I lived in the mountain/pacific time zone. However, I am sure the other 95% of my alumni would be pretty pissed. Im sure it will pretty cool to be with 50 other UND locals at the UNC game.

South Dakotans, which look to Iowa, Nebraska, and Kansas City for economic growth and opportunity, really don't understand the rivalry between ND and Montana. (Minnesota is important to both states.)

Why is there a HS all star game between ND and Montana, and not ND and SD? Historically there are more transportation, cultural, economic, and political ties between ND and Montana than between ND and SD. A high % of Montana natives were descended from North Dakotans. In the total scope of things, in spite of sharing a long border, there really isn't much economic or cultural interaction or people movement between ND and SD, except for a ND county or two just north of Aberdeen.

[The Sicatoka]

2. WVU in Big 12 all sports. Big 12 TV money is huge, bowl money and BCS bid.

Correction: LONGHORN Network TV money is huge. What the rest of the Big XII get from that is still TBD.

[The Sicatoka]

People seem to love maps here. Well, here's the current Missouri Valley Conference.

Look at that and then ask yourself, "If the MVC was going to start picking off Summit members to add, based on geography, who would they call first?"

Hint: Fargo isn't on that map. Omaha, Vermillion, and Brookings are.

[darell1976]

People seem to love maps here. Well, here's the current Missouri Valley Conference.

Look at that and then ask yourself, "If the MVC was going to start picking off Summit members to add, based on geography, who would they call first?"

Hint: Fargo isn't on that map. Omaha, Vermillion, and Brookings are.

Thats okay Lakes is over on AGS saying NDSU needs to move to the MVC for better competition and so NDSU can dominate that mid major conference. I know typical Lakes..too bad I mentioned NDSU hasn't had a winning record in the SUMMIT since 2008-09 (the Dance season). 11-18, and 14-15 the last 2 seasons, and dominate the MVC. :lol:

[RD17]

People seem to love maps here. Well, here's the current Missouri Valley Conference.

Look at that and then ask yourself, "If the MVC was going to start picking off Summit members to add, based on geography, who would they call first?"

Hint: Fargo isn't on that map. Omaha, Vermillion, and Brookings are.

Yep. I was saying the same thing yesterday, but I didn't use your pretty map :

Take a look at a map. The MVC is in contiguous states. The league works because it has great basketball within a tight geographic footprint. There is no way it leapfrogs South Dakota to take NDSU.

While it is true that conference expansion by anyone can't be ruled out, it is simply myopic to believe that NDSU would be near the top of the MVC's list.

[star2city]

People seem to love maps here. Well, here's the current Missouri Valley Conference.

Look at that and then ask yourself, "If the MVC was going to start picking off Summit members to add, based on geography, who would they call first?"

Hint: Fargo isn't on that map. Omaha, Vermillion, and Brookings are.

If USD or SDSU played in Sioux Falls and Sioux Falls had a new arena, those two school might have a chance. No way does the MVC look at Vermillion or Brookings unless the conference splits for some odd reason. UN-Omaha doesn't ever get in as long as Creighton is there.

The two most obvious holes in the MVC footprint are St Louis and KC. SLU, now in the A10 with "outlandish" travel (according to NDSU/SDSU fans), prefers the mostly Catholic A10 for now. UMKC actually fits and - because it plays in KC - might actually get attention one day. But going east and south there are all kinds of schools with larger markets that would fit: Oral Roberts (Tulsa), Belmont (Nashville), UALR (Little Rock), SIUE (St Louis), SE MO St (Cape Giradeau), Butler (probably a long shot), Wright State (Dayton), Valpo, even Bellarmine or NKU (after they have stabilized in DI). Memphis has even been talked about - if it needed a place to park its non-football sports.

[homer]

I'm sure you are happy. I would be as well if I lived in the mountain/pacific time zone. However, I am sure the other 95% of my alumni would be pretty pissed. Im sure it will pretty cool to be with 50 other UND locals at the UNC game.

Someday we might all meet up again. Whether we are both in the Big Sky or MVFC/Summit. I don't think the door is closed on either scenario nor the changing landscape of conferences.

UND used t.o fill the visitors section of UNC's football stadium in D2. We'll see how many show up this weekend but I'm guessing it is well, well over 50.

[darell1976]

If USD or SDSU played in Sioux Falls and Sioux Falls had a new arena, those two school might have a chance. No way does the MVC look at Vermillion or Brookings unless the conference splits for some odd reason. UN-Omaha doesn't ever get in as long as Creighton is there.

The two most obvious holes in the MVC footprint are St Louis and KC. SLU, now in the A10 with "outlandish" travel (according to NDSU/SDSU fans), prefers the mostly Catholic A10 for now. UMKC actually fits and - because it plays in KC - might actually get attention one day. But going east and south there are all kinds of schools with larger markets that would fit: Oral Roberts (Tulsa), Belmont (Nashville), UALR (Little Rock), SIUE (St Louis), SE MO St (Cape Giradeau), Butler (probably a long shot), Wright State (Dayton), Valpo, even Bellarmine or NKU (after they have stabilized in DI). Memphis has even been talked about - if it needed a place to park its non-football sports.

Summit needs 2 losses of teams from 2012-2014 to lose AQ status...whats the chance UMKC joins the MVC and same with Western Illinois? They fit perfectly geographically.

[RD17]

The people and media in Bismarck and Minot will be turned off by the Sioux Falls crap.

The prism that UND needs to be concerned about is Bismarck, Minot, Williston, and Dickinson as well as Billings, not Sioux Falls.

Billings - the media capital of Montana - is what matters, not Sioux Falls.

The Billings media is pumped that UND is in the Big Sky.

It's difficult to imagine the latest projections out of western ND:

1.2 million barrels / day (triple durrent rate, which has already tripled in two years)

A Williston with 50,000 to 75,000 people in 15 years.

Dickinson almost as big as Williston.

Minot almost doubling.

Bismarck growing 50%.

50,000 transplants from Montana in North Dakota.

25,000 transplants from Idaho

A huge number of native ND's returning to ND

A ND economy more than double what it is now, and actually dominated by the West.

A western part of the state that would be energized by the Big Sky and geography..

Billings' growth will be taking off - as well as the smaller Eastern Montana towns.

Let NDSU have the Summit, Sioux Falls, and SD to itself. Let NDSU be viewed as Fargo State.

Let Terry Vandrovec think he knows something and wax his poetical bull, when he doesn't know squat about economics or TV media or anything UND.

USD and SDSU have absolutely no relevance in western ND, where population and wealth will only continue to grow.

IF UND goes back to the Summit, the chance for UND athletics to become "the" collegiate team in western ND will be wasted.

Very well stated. I don't think many people are able to grasp just how much the balance of power is going to shift from east to west in ND over the next several years.

[Matt]

UND will always depend on Minnesota and Wisconsin for the bulk of recruiting. But unless and until the Summit League includes teams from there, the Summit League won't buy us anything. Any Summit League media presence stops at I-94 just outside of Moorhead and I-90 at the Minnesota border.

In fact, the Summit League as is would hurt UND, already disadvantaged as the most northernly school, because we will be less differentiated from the other Dakota schools. Our location demands that we become different to succeed

You've lost me on something. You cite compelling census data as to why it indeed does make so much sense for UND to differentiate by turning westward, yet you then say the bulk of the recruits will always come from the east, where there is virtually no Big Sky media penetration? What did you have in mind for the western popluation data you cited if not the market for student athletes? Or were you just agreeing with my assertion that the UND marketing department will have a big job on their hands to compete for Big Sky share of voice in the east?

[star2city]

Summit needs 2 losses of teams from 2012-2014 to lose AQ status...whats the chance UMKC joins the MVC and same with Western Illinois? They fit perfectly geographically.

WIU is in the footprint but adds almost nothing. WIU would need a shiny new arena plus basketball fan support to grow by a factor of 10. There's a reason that WIU is the sole remaining founding member of the Summit.

The three Summit schools that are most vulnerable to poaching are IUPUI, IPFW, and Oakland - who would all jump in a second. The Horizon would need to lose two or more to the A10 (or Big East in Butler's case). If Detroit Mercy leaves the Horizon - Oakland gets a bid. If Butler leaves the Horizon, IUPUI probably gets in if they agree to play outside of the HS gym. IPFW has a chance to get in if other Horizon schools leave.

[darell1976]

You've lost me on something. You cite compelling census data as to why it indeed does make so much sense for UND to differentiate by turning westward, yet you then say the bulk of the recruits will always come from the east, where there is virtually no Big Sky media penetration? What did you have in mind for the western popluation data you cited if not the market for student athletes? Or were you just agreeing with my assertion that the UND marketing department will have a big job on their hands to compete for Big Sky share of voice in the east?

I would think with the oil boom and the population shift to the west I would think our recruits would be more western ND and westward and not so much MN-WI and eastward.

[The Sicatoka]

For 50+ years UND was "on its own" (compared to the other Dakota schools) with hockey.

It did kinda-OK by itself there (7 NCAA National Championship).

I think UND will be just fine on its own again in the Big Sky.

[darell1976]

WIU is in the footprint but adds almost nothing. WIU would need a shiny new arena plus basketball fan support to grow by a factor of 10. There's a reason that WIU is the sole remaining founding member of the Summit.

The three Summit schools that are most vulnerable to poaching are IUPUI, IPFW, and Oakland - who would all jump in a second. The Horizon would need to lose two or more to the A10 (or Big East in Butler's case). If Detroit Mercy leaves the Horizon - Oakland gets a bid. If Butler leaves the Horizon, IUPUI probably gets in if they agree to play outside of the HS gym. IPFW has a chance to get in if other Horizon schools leave.

How about UMKC?

[RD17]

If USD or SDSU played in Sioux Falls and Sioux Falls had a new arena, those two school might have a chance. No way does the MVC look at Vermillion or Brookings unless the conference splits for some odd reason. UN-Omaha doesn't ever get in as long as Creighton is there.

The two most obvious holes in the MVC footprint are St Louis and KC. SLU, now in the A10 with "outlandish" travel (according to NDSU/SDSU fans), prefers the mostly Catholic A10 for now. UMKC actually fits and - because it plays in KC - might actually get attention one day. But going east and south there are all kinds of schools with larger markets that would fit: Oral Roberts (Tulsa), Belmont (Nashville), UALR (Little Rock), SIUE (St Louis), SE MO St (Cape Giradeau), Butler (probably a long shot), Wright State (Dayton), Valpo, even Bellarmine or NKU (after they have stabilized in DI). Memphis has even been talked about - if it needed a place to park its non-football sports.

Wouldn't ORU going to the Southland pretty much mean that MVC expansion is definitely not happening anytime soon? I would think that after SLU, ORU would be near the top of the heap of potential MVC candidates. If ORU had any indication that an MVC opportunity may present itself in the next 2-3 years, wouldn't they have stuck it out in the Summit?