IAA Playoff Sham

[Smoggy]

10 Reasons the DI-AA football playoffs are better than DII's:

7. In the first round and second rounds, teams might get to play somebody they haven't already played recently (or ever) just like in the old days of DII.

I think it's great that we got the opportunity to play Pitt St. again and now Winona again. This is how rivalries are born. Even playing a team you've faced in the season isn't that bad. It always brings up more questions as to "who will win and how?" instead of "who is this team and are they any good?" Nonconference games are for playing teams you haven't played before.

I don't like the regions, but I'd rather see Pitt. St. than a team I'm unfamiliar with. Unless that team is "great" ala UC Davis in 2001. I do want the "best" schools to have the chance to meet in the semifinals and finals.

While the teams may be new for the Bison next year, I'm sure most schools are familiar with each other since the "power" schools go to the playoffs year after year.

BTW, I hope the Bison didn't choose to go DIAA just because they are mad at the playoffs in DII. So what, you got jipped once or twice. If every team made the playoffs, someone would still have a beef.

[BostonSiouxFan]

While I enjoy your hockey observations PCM, you're way off base about NDSU being at fault for ending the Sioux-Bison rivalry.

I'm a UND alum, but unlike so many Sioux fans (and Bison fans), I am not under the mistaken impression that everything the other school does is wrong. I for one give NDSU all the credit in the world for having the guts and vision to move up to Division I-AA.

In 2001, NDSU scheduled Maine, who was at the time a Top 10 ranked team in DI-AA. Unfortunately, because of the tragedy on September 11, the game was cancelled, but nevertheless the Bison had scheduled a legitimate I-AA power. This year, NDSU beat Montana and gave I-AA Cal-Davis a great game. Meanwhile, the Sioux were content to beat up on local whipping boy UM-Crookston, a team that couldn't beat some of the better high school teams in ND and MN. NDSU consistently plays a non-conference schedule FAR superior to UND's. Granted, the Sioux went through the NCC undefeated, and totally deserve a top seed in the playoffs, while NDSU lost two conference games in addition to the loss to Cal Davis, and didn't deserve to be in the playoffs.

Judging by the differences in scheduling and NDSU's move up, it seems to me that the Bison aspire to move onto bigger and better things. The NCC has long been the premier football conference in D-II, but is in serious danger of turning into a laughing stock considering some of the schools that may soon fill in for NDSU, Northern Colorado, South Dakota State and Morningside (who I realize was terrible itself).

In conclusion, it seems clear that while UND is perfectly happy to be on the upside of such "rivalries" as UND-Crookston, it has no interest in being the underdog. NDSU doesn't immediately gain all of the scholarships for moving up to I-AA, and the Sioux should keep playing them until the day comes that NDSU has a clear-cut advantage, and UND simply can't compete. I for one would be thrilled to keep tuning into Bison-Sioux games, but have had it with Potato Bowl foes like Crookston. Here's hoping UND makes cancelling the rivalry a moot point by going I-AA themselves, before we see NDSCS on the schedule.

[PCM]

I'm a UND alum, but unlike so many Sioux fans (and Bison fans), I am not under the mistaken impression that everything the other school does is wrong.

Find one post that I've ever written saying that NDSU is wrong to go D-IAA. I've never said that because I don't believe it.

Have I been skeptical of some claims NDSU and SDSU (my alma mater) have made about the benefits of moving up? Yes. Do I question whether NDSU has planned well for the move? Yes. Do I think it's ludicrous for some Bison fans to claim that UND shares equal responsibility for ending the rivalry with UND? Most definitely because it's absolutely not true.

If NDSU sincerely believes that the path to greater glory and riches lies in competing at a higher level in the NCAA, then I have no problem with that. The school's administrators are acting in what they perceive to be NDSU's best interest. That's what they're paid to do.

However, UND must also act in its best interest. If we were planning a move to D-IAA or even seriously discussing it, then perhaps playing NDSU and other schools at its level would make sense. But we're not.

For the foreseeable future, UND will play in the NCC with the goal of winning the conference and D-II national championships. When Dale Lennon publicly states that playing NDSU could potentially hurt UND's chances to win a national title, I believe him.

Who should I believe? Should I believe NDSU's position on the issue or Lennon's? Who is most likely to have UND's best interest in mind? Gene Taylor or Roger Thomas?

It is not in UND's best interest to play NDSU as long as the two schools are in different divisions and are not competing on a level playing field. Could we do it? Certainly. However, to do so is like playing playing Russian roulette each season with UND's chance to win a national title. It's simply not worth the risk.

[DamStrait]

I believe UND should go D1AA in football (and, by necessity, D1 in all other sports). I also believe that NDSU moved up with the attitude of damn everyone else. Fine, they're only looking out for #1. However, I also firmly believe that NDSU wants to continue the rivalry for the next few years because it is in their best interest to do so. If they should become D1AA tournament eligible without UND moving up by that time as well, I FIRMLY believe they will drop UND from the schedule like a hot potato, and NDSU mouthpieces like tony (the petulant child) and WYOBISONMAN will defend that decision to the death. In other words, their story will not so mysteriously change.

By the way WYOBISONMAN, change your sig line - it makes you sound like a jerk. Then again, maybe you are a jerk, in which case, leave this site and never return.

[The Sicatoka]

Now, can any UND fan explain to me how the DII playoff setup better than DI-AA's? Note: I'm looking for a serious answer here.

Serious answer: Set performance criteria for all participants.

You must have one of the top four (next year six) SSIs, by a well-defined formula, in your region. Everyone knows what it takes going in.

I credit DIAA for giving auto-bids; however, sometimes autobids go to teams that may, on the surface, appear undeserving (not to single this case out but Montana State at 7-5), or to conferences that are perenially weak, and that can cause controversy.

DIAAs eight at-large bids appear to be just that, at-large. With no defined measure of performance the system is open to political manipulations. Should "the cut" be based on the objective or subjective?

Is there a perfect system? No.

The best I've seen (again, not perfect) is a hybrid of the two. (The Bison fans won't like this.) It is the one used by the NCAA to seed the DI mens hockey tournament:

The six conferences each get one autobid. Then, the top 10 teams per the Pairwise Rankings without an autobid are also taken. Those teams are then seeded per a set criteria.

[WYOBISONMAN]

Sorry you don't like my sig line. I guess I am not out to make you happy.

[tony]

I've looked for, but am not seeing, a stirring defense of the DII playoff system yet.

[nodakvindy]

What is there to defend? Most of your bogus top ten was just repeated whining about the regional nature of the playoffs. Do you also dislike the North Dakota high school playoffs, which have a similar structure? All four major pro leagues have playoffs that are split arbitrarily, are they bad as well.

In terms of attendance, the logical extension of that argument would be that the BCS is the finest means of determining a champ, as attendance for the BCS Bowls blows IAA out of the water.

Also your claim about no Bentley's is wrong. The non-scholarship Patriot League actually gets an autobid. Colgate, this year's champ, received the #4 seed in the playoffs.

And finally, as Sicatoka pointed out, the criteria are clearly laid out.

I'm not here to run down the IAA playoffs, just trying to point out that they have just as many faults as the D2 playoffs. There didn't seem to be these problems in the 80s when the Bison were the New York Yankees of the Division, riding their scholarship advantage to National Titles. With the playing field leveled, the Bison are now just a nice team that gets to the playoffs on occasion.

[DamStrait]

Sorry you don't like my sig line. I guess I am not out to make you happy.

Oh, okay, so you are a jerk.

And tony, there is no defense, even if it were full of merit, that you would accept, so why bother? I have not seen a stirring defense of the D1AA playoff system either btw.

[huskies679]

DIAA/DII tomato/tomato no national attention for either and thats ok. The only difference will be in basketball, where NDSU will be competing against the best. DIAA is not a big deal for football.

[bisonguy]

nodakvindy,

I have heard that there is greater scholarship disparity in DII now, than there was in the 80's. I don't have any numbers, but there wasn't a lot of former JUCO schools or five scholarship schools in DII back then

[CRH]

With all the debate here about which playoff system is better 1AA or DII I would take either over the BCS tainted, money dominated bowl system in D1A. When only the major 6 conferences have a realistic chance of getting into the BCS and the championship game there is something wrong. When a bowl can take a team with a worst record because they travel more fans to their fair city there is something wrong. Maybe there needs to be some tweaking on how teams qualify for the playoffs, but at least the teams that qualify are able to settle the debate on the field as to who is the best team rather than through a poll!

[tony]

Nodakvindy, yeah, you got me. Patriot League is non-scholarship.

There is a difference (and this in no way excuses my error), Patriot League teams have proven they can beat the best teams in DI-AA. Nobody from Bentley's league has beat anybody in DII. Ever. Heck, they've never even scheduled a decent team since joining DII.

In total, I see only one argument in the great "DI-AA v DII Playoff Debate." It's a hilarious one too. DII's playoff system is not well laid out! Heck, The Sicatoka still doesn't seem to understand it. The SSI is a crock of crap but to DII's credit, it is only one of many equally-weighted criteria. In fact, a team's results against DI competition are listed among the selection criteria and, if the rules are followed, they are given equal weight with the other eight. Which one gets more weight? It depends on who is making the argument (i.e. it's a political process). Heck, DII doesn't even publish the SSI ratings and will probably end up replacing them soon. I tend to look at results though. The DI-AA system does a much, much better job of getting the best 16 teams in.

However, the DI-AA playoff selection committee does refer to a rating system when making playoff selections. It's called the GPI. If you want to argue SSI vs GPI, I'm game. Just know this, with the SSI, Bentley would be rated higher than Michigan. The fatal flaw with the SSI, just like the entire DII playoff system, is that it is not designed to get the best 16 teams into the playoffs.

[Bisonfan1234]

It is not in UND's best interest to play NDSU as long as the two schools are in different divisions and are not competing on a level playing field.

You are exactly right.

However, wouldn't you at least partially agree that in the next 2 years the "playing field" will only be skewed a fraction in NDSU's favor? Certainly not enough to make it the impossibility for a UND victory that you make it out to be.

The main thing i don't understand with your argument is how you can be so against playing schools with more scholorships than you and be for playing schools with less scholorships than you. It suggest contradiction IMO.

***

As far as the play-off format goes. I think it's best to say that this season we would have benifitted from a national format vs. a regional format.

Now, with that being said, is it possible to have a season in which we would have benefitted from a regional format vs. a national format? Yes there could be. Say, for example, there are many stacked teams in the south and east regions. They would push NDSU out of the top 16 nationally but we might still get in if we are the best team in our region.

So there is clearly a case where each format is better.

THIS IS NOT WHY NDSU IS LEAVING D2 !!

The state of North Dakota is a small (in terms of population) state. But we're not an unimportant state! Nonetheless, other, more populated states look down on us as stupid farmers. NDSU and president champman have been and continue trying to change this image!

Moving to D1 is all about image. We are upgrading; we are moving up; and we're taking the rest of the state, kicking and screaming in some cases, up with us.

Hear me now when i say that if UND should decide to stay in D2 for much longer, they will be playing second fiddle to NDSU in the state of North Dakota for the rest of time. NDSU will have built up such an advantage over UND that it will look more like Minnesota-Duluth vs. Minnesota-Twin Cities. And nothing short of a small fortune will allow UND to overcome this.

I know it, NDSU knows it, and , most importantly, UND knows it. UND alums especially know it and i claim that they will not allow UND to fall to the side. They will, sooner/later, force UND to move up to D1 so that they can stay competitive with NDSU.

When this time comes, prepare for a new generation of NDSU vs. UND. A D1 generation.

[UND92,96]

If you want to argue SSI vs GPI, I'm game. Just know this, with the SSI, Bentley would be rated higher than Michigan. The fatal flaw with the SSI, just like the entire DII playoff system, is that it is not designed to get the best 16 teams into the playoffs.

I certainly don't know enough about the GPI to argue its merits, but it's somewhat interesting to note that Northern Colorado is at number 14 despite the fact that six of their nine wins were over dII teams (and all weak ones, at that). Their record against full-fledged I-AA's was just 2-2.

[nodakvindy]

bisonguy,

I'd agree the disparity in scholarships between the haves and have nots is more pronounced now, but in the 80s there were few teams at max scholarships, NDSU being one. That is what made the Team Makers such a pivotal part of the program. NDSU was able to load up on talent much like Nebraska at the Division I level. They devoted a lot of resources to the football program and were rewarded with championships. This was the same time UND hockey was experiencing its 80s Golden Age and that's where UND chose to devote resources.

To the Bison fans out there: Has there been any decision yet on what sports will be added or cut to facilitate the new football scholarships. It would seem that decision will need to come fairly soon or a Title IX lawsuit is right around the corner.

[Bisonfan1234]

Perhaps we'll add women's tennis and women's swimming/diving.

[Hansel]

To the Bison fans out there:

[tony]

I'd disagree. There were more teams at maximum scholarships in the '80s than there are now, both in percentage and in number.

When DI-AA first formed, about 45 DII members left to join up, the others came from DI-A. Since the 1980's, more than 80 additional DII teams have left, with the majority moving up to DI. I can say with a fair amount of confidence that most of these teams were at DII's maximum when they decided to move up to DI (which is where most of them ended up). DII has lost many teams that offered the maximum number of scholarships.

In the meantime, the SAC, the WVIAC, the NE10, the NSIC, the GNAC, the RMAC, etc have joined DII. That's 50 or so new teams to replace the ones that left for DI. Perhaps one or two of the GNAC teams offer 36 scholarships, but none of the rest of them offer anywhere close to the maximum.

DII has lost at least 40 fully-funded programs and replaced them almost entirely with programs that offer fewer than 20 scholarships. By my count, DII has at least forty fewer fully-funded programs now that it had at the start of '80s.

-------

Title IX: NDSU can't really cut any sports because DI requires that they offer a minimum number. Last I heard, they were thinking of adding a womens sport (equestrian and tennis are ones I've heard mentioned).

Question: Why did UND have to add womens hockey to become Title IX compliant even after dropping wrestling?

[tony]

UND92,96, that is kind of interesting about Northern Colorado. However, UNC is rated in the top 20 in every one of the ten ranking systems the GPI uses. I'd probably rank them right around where they are. IMO, the GPI did a pretty good job of ranking them.

[The Sicatoka]

The grass is always greener ....

[Hansel]

I certainly don't know enough about the GPI to argue its merits, but it's somewhat interesting to note that Northern Colorado is at number 14 despite the fact that six of their nine wins were over dII teams (and all weak ones, at that). Their record against full-fledged I-AA's was just 2-2.

UNC only did play 5IAA's but 4 were ranked in the top twenty-five by the GPI and the fifth was 36th.. so that was a pretty brutal IAA schedule considering all five of those games were on the road

[PCM]

However, wouldn't you at least partially agree that in the next 2 years the "playing field" will only be skewed a fraction in NDSU's favor? Certainly not enough to make it the impossibility for a UND victory that you make it out to be.

The only way to know for sure is to play the game. As I've said, that's equivalent to playing Russian roulette with UND's playoff chances.

Certainly not enough to make it the impossibility for a UND victory that you make it out to be.

I never said a UND victory was an impossibility. I said it wasn't worth the risk.

The main thing i don't understand with your argument is how you can be so against playing schools with more scholorships than you and be for playing schools with less scholorships than you. It suggest contradiction IMO.

I didn't make that argument. You did.

[huskies679]

I think NDSU moving to 1AA because they don't get the national attention like UND does with their 1A hockey program. In Mineesota UND is looked to as the "flagship university" of North Dakota with their law, medicine, and hockey programs.

Don't give me the crap about the "watering down" of DII competition as the reason for leaving. Its about exposure. DIA basketball could be huge. NDSU is making a good choice for them. (i think)

[WYOBISONMAN]

SCSU is a second tier school in MN....hell, I don't think the Huskies even rate enough to be a part of this debate.....