Attendance

[ShilohSioux]

On the Longwood thread, we moved into a discussion on attendance. Some really good observations, such as the old Friday-Saturday series vs. today's Thursday-Saturday or Saturday-Monday pairings and how that hurts when it comes to out-of-town fans. I imagine students and others are finding more things to take up their time these days too. Here's recent attendance figures for the four Dakota teams. Hopefully, with some success at the D-I level, we'll all get back to those old numbers.

North Dakota

2009-10 – 1,919

2008-09 – 1,623

2007-08 – 1,865

2006-07 – 2,188

2005-06 – 2,279

2004-05 – 2,791

2003-04 – 2,550

2002-03 – 3,423

2001-02 – 3,857

2000-01 – 2,987

1999-2000 – 2,933

1991-92 – 4,943 (Div. II leader)

North Dakota State

2009-10 – 2,792

2008-09 – 3,596 (Big Dance qualifier)

2007-08 – 3,034

2006-07 – 2,625

2005-06 – 2,488

2004-05 – 1,653

2003-04 – 2,440

2002-03 – 2,868

2001-02 – 2,538

2000-01 – 2,365

1999-2000 – 2,606

1984-85 – 4,873

1983-84 – 5,267

1982-83 – 6,057 (Div. II leader)

1980-81 – 5,308 (Div. II leader)

South Dakota

2009-10 – 1,492

2008-09 –

2007-08 – 2,885

2006-07 – 2,795

2005-06 – 2,006

2004-05 – 2,578

2003-04 – 3,076

2002-03 – 2,533

2001-02 – 3,044

2000-01 – 2,716

1999-2000 – 3,155

South Dakota State

2009-10 – 2,204

2008-09 – 2,487

2007-08 – 2,186

2006-07 – 1,850

2005-06 – 2,070

2004-05 –

2003-04 – 3,375 (Div. II leader)

2002-03 – 3,491

2001-02 – 4,449 (Div. II leader)

2000-01 – 3,767

1999-2000 – 4,077 (Div. II leader)

1997-98 – 5,350 (Div. II leader)

1995-96 – 4,945 (Div. II leader)

[darell1976]

On the Longwood thread, we moved into a discussion on attendance. Some really good observations, such as the old Friday-Saturday series vs. today's Thursday-Saturday or Saturday-Monday pairings and how that hurts when it comes to out-of-town fans. I imagine students and others are finding more things to take up their time these days too. Here's recent attendance figures for the four Dakota teams. Hopefully, with some success at the D-I level, we'll all get back to those old numbers.

North Dakota

2009-10

[FargoBison]

How do we get to those numbers again? Since the BESC doesn't hold 4,000 how do we get to capacity or does no one care about bball anymore. Numbers are more shocking at NDSU.

Considering the dump we play in and have very few decent non-conference games, our attendance is no shock.

It will be nice to get rid of Centenary and SUU though since nobody cared about watching either of those teams come to Fargo.

[star2city]

Considering the dump we play in and have very few decent non-conference games, our attendance is no shock.

It will be nice to get rid of Centenary and SUU though since nobody cared about watching either of those teams come to Fargo.

Hasn't there been a big pop in #'s with the Fargodome game? Ten thousands tickets sold equals three home games.

What's the latest status on the BSA remodel? Are all the needed donations there? Couldn't at least one phase begin?

You likely weren't even born back in the glory days of NDSU attendance, but were those figures real? During that time frame, seems that both BSA and Dacotah Field numbers had inflation factors.

[FargoBison]

Hasn't there been a big pop in #'s with the Fargodome game? Ten thousands tickets sold equals three home games.

What's the latest status on the BSA remodel? Are all the needed donations there? Couldn't at least one phase begin?

You likely weren't even born back in the glory days of NDSU attendance, but were those figures real? During that time frame, seems that both BSA and Dacotah Field numbers had inflation factors.

NDSU's attendance will see a huge increase this year thanks to that game, Of course it doesn't help that every game besides UND was either against a non-DI or played while the students were on break. Our average is a bit over 3600 now and we still have our marquee games with Oakland and SDSU yet to be played.

Nobody really knows what the status is exactly of the BSA, supposedly there is another huge donation coming but the SBoHE wants it all in the bank before shovels can hit the ground. I've heard as early as this spring or as late as next spring before it can start.

NDSU's attendance records in the media guide does have two sets of records "actual counts only since 1990-91" and "All seasons since 1970-71." So I think you could say the school is admitting to some prior attendance inflation. It does say 8500 people showed up for a game in the early 80s, I was at the K-State game a few years ago and there was nowhere to sit or stand with 6110 people there. So yeah they definitely are flawed.

[ShilohSioux]

How do we get to those numbers again? Since the BESC doesn't hold 4,000 how do we get to capacity.......

But we could play some of our bigger games in the Ralph if attendance picks up, right? It wouldn't be that hard to schedule hockey and hoops around each other.

[bincitysioux]

But we could play some of our bigger games in the Ralph if attendance picks up, right? It wouldn't be that hard to schedule hockey and hoops around each other.

It can obviously be done to an extent.................the men and women played all of their NCC conference games in the REA in 2004-05 and 2005-06.

I'd prefer they stay in the Sioux Center, save for when they host NDSU, and possibly down the road if a rivalry develops with a Big Sky school (perhaps Montana or Montana St. ? ) that would consistently be able to sell 5,000+ seats for such a game.

Aside from that, I'd consider it a remarkable accomplishment if UND basketball ever averages 3,000 per game again, and the Betty can accomodate that. 3,000 in the Sioux Center is a great home-court advantage. Even 5,000 in the REA is not.

Coincidently, Sean Johnson addressed this very subject on Friday on the Christopher Gabriel Program when asked about the several much larger basketball arenas in the Big Sky Conference. He had the same company line answer that the Sioux Center needs to get full before they think about a different home for basketball, but if it did happen that either the REA or the Alerus would be the likely options.................

[ShilohSioux]

It can obviously be done to an extent.................the men and women played all of their NCC conference games in the REA in 2004-05 and 2005-06.

I'd prefer they stay in the Sioux Center, save for when they host NDSU, and possibly down the road if a rivalry develops with a Big Sky school (perhaps Montana or Montana St. ? ) that would consistently be able to sell 5,000+ seats for such a game.

Aside from that, I'd consider it a remarkable accomplishment if UND basketball ever averages 3,000 per game again, and the Betty can accomodate that. 3,000 in the Sioux Center is a great home-court advantage. Even 5,000 in the REA is not.

Coincidently, Sean Johnson addressed this very subject on Friday on the Christopher Gabriel Program when asked about the several much larger basketball arenas in the Big Sky Conference. He had the same company line answer that the Sioux Center needs to get full before they think about a different home for basketball, but if it did happen that either the REA or the Alerus would be the likely options.................

I agree we need to show we can pack the Betty before we think about playing anywhere else, but I'm stunned that we don't think we can draw more than 3,000 on a regular basis. Even if the numbers were inflated, didn't we draw much more than that back in the 70s, 80s and early 90s? Now, as a D-I program and with the Big Sky affilliation, and with a student body of more than 10K, shouldn't we expect to draw 5K-plus for most games once we get through the transition? I'm not questioning your assessment, but wondering why we (or the Bison for that matter) shouldn't be drawing more. Are people really finding that many other things to do nowadays?

[star2city]

I agree we need to show we can pack the Betty before we think about playing anywhere else, but I'm stunned that we don't think we can draw more than 3,000 on a regular basis. Even if the numbers were inflated, didn't we draw much more than that back in the 70s, 80s and early 90s? Now, as a D-I program and with the Big Sky affilliation, and with a student body of more than 10K, shouldn't we expect to draw 5K-plus for most games once we get through the transition? I'm not questioning your assessment, but wondering why we (or the Bison for that matter) shouldn't be drawing more. Are people really finding that many other things to do nowadays?

The Betty only seats 3200, so some games need to be at the Ralph or Alerus to realistically average 3 k or more. Part of the reason that UND drew more than 3000 avg in 2001-2 and 2002-3 was there were huge crowds in the Ralph (vs Kansas for 13 k and vs NDSU for 7 and 9 k). Scheduling for the Ralph for basketball has become more difficult, because the women's team has also been drawing better and is often scheduled for alternate weekends from the Ralph. In the early years of women's hockey, the games were often played in the Olympic rink to facilitate scheduling: now that is less likely.

In the Big Sky, Weber St is the only school that draws more than 4k routinely: Attendance thread on eGriz. Montana draws well in both men's and women's BB, but still under 4k, and there also isn't hockey weekends there.

This year's recruits have given the first real spark of hope for the men's team. The men's numbers for the past few years are inflated some because fans would show up for the women's game and then leave before or at halftime for the men's game. With the Big Sky schedule, there won't be conference doubleheaders, so the men's team will need to stand on its own.

To help attract fans - especially students and younger kids - video boards replacing the scoreboards are really needed in the Betty. Fans demand an experience now, while back in the 70's, fans were content with a bleacher seat.

[farce poobah]

I agree we need to show we can pack the Betty before we think about playing anywhere else, but I'm stunned that we don't think we can draw more than 3,000 on a regular basis. Even if the numbers were inflated, didn't we draw much more than that back in the 70s, 80s and early 90s? Now, as a D-I program and with the Big Sky affilliation, and with a student body of more than 10K, shouldn't we expect to draw 5K-plus for most games once we get through the transition? I'm not questioning your assessment, but wondering why we (or the Bison for that matter) shouldn't be drawing more. Are people really finding that many other things to do nowadays?

Lot of causes for attendance declines, but I agree that with a Big Sky schedule, the potential exists to draw a lot more.

However, basketball has suffered from a number of things that are readily addressed, while others are harder to address:

1) Predictable game days and game times. We see this with hockey ... have the games every Friday and Saturday night, and people will come from hundreds of miles (Twin Cities, in my case). If they ever started playing hockey on Tuesdays, Thursdays, etc, the out of towners simply would not be able to come. Good old NCC hoops was every Friday and Saturday, and that was a huge reason it filled.

In order to not disrupt the Golden Goose (hockey revenues), play basketball - predictably - on Saturday afternoons and Sunday afternoons. That gives UND a shot at drawing out of town ticketholders. And if hockey is on the road, play Friday and Saturday nights.

2) At basketball, GIVE THE STUDENTS THE GOOD SEATS. It worked at the Fieldhouse/Hyslop. Make it a point system, where loyalty / attendance drives priority. Make the Betty as tough a place to play as the Ralph is. These players have a lot of choices to play hoops, and let's give them one more reason to get jazzed about playing at UND.

3) Improve the Betty's seating. Add more permanent seating on the ends. With a 4000 capacity, that should add $$ and noise and help make it a noisy, crowded bandbox of an arena.

Other items are structural with the game of college basketball itself, which I find increasingly hard to watch.

1) Ends of halves are not tension filled, they are simply tedious. The ridiculous amount of time that expires with (a) foul shots, (b) intentional fouling, © media timeouts, (d) team timeouts, (e) foul-out-timeouts, etc etc etc. SPEED UP THE GAME, PLEASE.

2) One simple rule change is that the team fouled keeps possession. Penalty for fouling is 1 shot (shot like a technical).

3) Reduce team timeouts in games with media timeouts.

4) I'm sure others can think of better ideas than I.

I do think UND basketball could regularly draw 4-6k for big games. But there's a lot of work to be done.

[ShilohSioux]

Lot of causes for attendance declines, but I agree that with a Big Sky schedule, the potential exists to draw a lot more.

However, basketball has suffered from a number of things that are readily addressed, while others are harder to address:

1) Predictable game days and game times. We see this with hockey ... have the games every Friday and Saturday night, and people will come from hundreds of miles (Twin Cities, in my case). If they ever started playing hockey on Tuesdays, Thursdays, etc, the out of towners simply would not be able to come. Good old NCC hoops was every Friday and Saturday, and that was a huge reason it filled.

In order to not disrupt the Golden Goose (hockey revenues), play basketball - predictably - on Saturday afternoons and Sunday afternoons. That gives UND a shot at drawing out of town ticketholders. And if hockey is on the road, play Friday and Saturday nights.

2) At basketball, GIVE THE STUDENTS THE GOOD SEATS. It worked at the Fieldhouse/Hyslop. Make it a point system, where loyalty / attendance drives priority. Make the Betty as tough a place to play as the Ralph is. These players have a lot of choices to play hoops, and let's give them one more reason to get jazzed about playing at UND.

3) Improve the Betty's seating. Add more permanent seating on the ends. With a 4000 capacity, that should add $ and noise and help make it a noisy, crowded bandbox of an arena.

Other items are structural with the game of college basketball itself, which I find increasingly hard to watch.

1) Ends of halves are not tension filled, they are simply tedious. The ridiculous amount of time that expires with (a) foul shots, (b) intentional fouling,

[82SiouxGuy]

Lot of causes for attendance declines, but I agree that with a Big Sky schedule, the potential exists to draw a lot more.

However, basketball has suffered from a number of things that are readily addressed, while others are harder to address:

1) Predictable game days and game times. We see this with hockey ... have the games every Friday and Saturday night, and people will come from hundreds of miles (Twin Cities, in my case). If they ever started playing hockey on Tuesdays, Thursdays, etc, the out of towners simply would not be able to come. Good old NCC hoops was every Friday and Saturday, and that was a huge reason it filled.

In order to not disrupt the Golden Goose (hockey revenues), play basketball - predictably - on Saturday afternoons and Sunday afternoons. That gives UND a shot at drawing out of town ticketholders. And if hockey is on the road, play Friday and Saturday nights.

2) At basketball, GIVE THE STUDENTS THE GOOD SEATS. It worked at the Fieldhouse/Hyslop. Make it a point system, where loyalty / attendance drives priority. Make the Betty as tough a place to play as the Ralph is. These players have a lot of choices to play hoops, and let's give them one more reason to get jazzed about playing at UND.

3) Improve the Betty's seating. Add more permanent seating on the ends. With a 4000 capacity, that should add $$ and noise and help make it a noisy, crowded bandbox of an arena.

Other items are structural with the game of college basketball itself, which I find increasingly hard to watch.

1) Ends of halves are not tension filled, they are simply tedious. The ridiculous amount of time that expires with (a) foul shots, (b) intentional fouling, © media timeouts, (d) team timeouts, (e) foul-out-timeouts, etc etc etc. SPEED UP THE GAME, PLEASE.

2) One simple rule change is that the team fouled keeps possession. Penalty for fouling is 1 shot (shot like a technical).

3) Reduce team timeouts in games with media timeouts.

4) I'm sure others can think of better ideas than I.

I do think UND basketball could regularly draw 4-6k for big games. But there's a lot of work to be done.

On paper your ideas look pretty good. In reality, not all of them are possible. First is scheduling. For one thing, UND doesn't control conference scheduling, so they can't set up whatever they like. It looks like the Big Sky has a Thursday-Saturday schedule for men's basketball, with 1 game on Sunday every week (for TV I'm sure). Women's has the same schedule, only they have 1 or 2 games on Monday instead of Sunday. The men and women's schedule are different, so it looks like one is on the road while the other is at home. Because of the large travel distances in the conference I would be surprised if they could go to a Friday-Saturday or Saturday-Sunday schedule even if they wanted too. Remember, the NCC was a bus league. The day off between games is at least in part set aside for a travel day.

Another problem with non-conference scheduling is that the opponents have a say about when they want to visit. The bigger the school, the more drawing power they have and the more that they are going to want to play at home on weekends. That means transitional teams and teams from lower conferences aren't going to be able to get many home games at all against upper level teams, and very few of those are going to be on the weekends. Lower division teams are more likely to show up when you want, but they aren't a big draw anyway. Plus the travel thing causes problems again for teams, so I don't see any way that regular games on Friday-Saturday or Saturday-Sunday will ever happen at this level. The one thing you could do is develop a practice of having a home game from one or the other of the basketball teams almost every Saturday. But in most cases it would be the only game of the weekend at home.

The other idea that sounds good on paper but may not be as easy to make happen is giving the students the good seats. First, are they going to show up? They don't seem to show up at a lot of basketball games now, and they don't show up nearly as much as they used to for football even though they have those seats. Even when they do show up, they leave at halftime in large numbers. It looks bad if those seats aren't used, and now it shows up on television all over the country with the Fox College Sports contract. It also could cut into revenue for the athletic department. People are paying good money for those seats. They may not be willing to pay as much for lesser seats. And that would be a shame if they are moved to another area, pay less money, and the seats sit empty for most of the games. If there was a pretty good chance the seats would be filled by students for most if not all of the games I may support that more. As it is now, especially when I sit in the section next to the students at the football games, I'm not sure that giving those seats to the students is really good for the program.

Is it possible to add more permanent seating and still give the Betty the ability to be a good practice facility? I think it would eliminate the ability to go to side-by-side courts and have multiple things going on at the same time. They use it for both basketball teams plus volleyball, so in the fall semester it has a pretty heavy schedule. I don't know if putting in permanent seats would disrupt that or not. But you would think that they could get some better portable bleachers that could go on the ends of the court. That would help fill in the ends and make for a little better atmosphere.

[ShilohSioux]

On paper your ideas look pretty good. In reality, not all of them are possible. First is scheduling. For one thing, UND doesn't control conference scheduling, so they can't set up whatever they like. It looks like the Big Sky has a Thursday-Saturday schedule for men's basketball, with 1 game on Sunday every week (for TV I'm sure). Women's has the same schedule, only they have 1 or 2 games on Monday instead of Sunday. The men and women's schedule are different, so it looks like one is on the road while the other is at home. Because of the large travel distances in the conference I would be surprised if they could go to a Friday-Saturday or Saturday-Sunday schedule even if they wanted too. Remember, the NCC was a bus league. The day off between games is at least in part set aside for a travel day.

I'm wondering, if we remain an outlier in the Big Sky, with no travel partner, if we could host games on Friday-Saturday. Teams would be coming our way for only one game so travel between Grand Forks and another town wouldn't be an issue.

[82SiouxGuy]

I'm wondering, if we remain an outlier in the Big Sky, with no travel partner, if we could host games on Friday-Saturday. Teams would be coming our way for only one game so travel between Grand Forks and another town wouldn't be an issue.

They are still going to have to play another school most of those weekends. Because of the odd number of teams it is just going to screw up the rotation. There will still be travel issues, maybe more because UND is an outlier. Besides, the conference has all of its games on Thursday night, so they aren't going to make an exception for 1 school.

[MadScout03]

In regards to better seating for students...as previously posted...students have to show up. The student attendance has been dismal at best, excluding this past weekend against USD. The bleachers on both ends were nearly full, but I have a feeling that free tuition and free pizza were a big draw. I wouldn't say the student section cleared out after they gave away the free tuition, but it did thin out a bit. But on top of that, most of the students don't get into the game. A lot just sit on their hands. Even when the band plays the fight song as the team runs out, the students just sit there. They don't stand up, don't clap along...nothing. Now, I realize that is a very general observation, because there are some students who do stand up, who do clap along, who do cheer, but for the most part, the student participation is not there. I don't think giving students better seating would improve these issues. Quality of teams? That might help it, but until there is a change in student participation, that won't happen.

As for weekend games with hockey...it would be great. I remember in the good old days of watching basketball games at Hyslop and when that got over, walking across the street to the old Ralph for the hockey game. It would be great, but yeah, UND has no control over the conference scheduling.

And basketball needs to stay at the Betty until they sell out the place on a consistent basis. I've said it before and I'll say it again...I would much rather be in a packed Betty than a 1/3 full Ralph any day of the week. The home court advantage isn't there when they play in the Ralph. Maybe the whole idea when building the Betty was that if needed, the games could be moved to the Ralph, but I think it's too big, especially with where the attendance is right now. Last year for the USD series, they had the "Meltdown at the Ralph." The same series happened this weekend and the Betty still wasn't full. Attendance was up, but it wasn't full, so I can only believe that the point of keeping the games in the Betty was made, simply by comparing last year to this year.

[ShilohSioux]

Women are outdrawing the men so far according to Great West Conference website. With most remaining games doubleheaders, where attendance will count the same for both squads, it looks like the women likely will outdraw the men this year:

Women's Attendance:

North Dakota 1,699

South Dakota 812

Utah Valley 494

Houston Baptist 369

Chicago State 330

NJIT 255

Texas – Pan American 254

Men's Attendance:

Utah Valley 1,894

North Dakota 1,485

Chicago State 1,299

South Dakota 1,118

Texas – Pan American 775

Houston Baptist 751

NJIT 384

[ShilohSioux]

Here's how we'd stack up in the Big Sky, although I believe playing in the BSC alone will cause attendance to rise somewhat. Winning there would help even more.

Men's Attendance – Big Sky Teams

Weber State 5,878

Montana 3,890

Montana State 2,870

Northern Colorado 1,999

Idaho State 1,832

North Dakota 1,485

Eastern Washington 1,056

Portland State 932

Northern Arizona 659

Sacramento State 624

[bincitysioux]

Women are outdrawing the men so far according to Great West Conference website. With most remaining games doubleheaders, where attendance will count the same for both squads, it looks like the women likely will outdraw the men this year

The women have outdrawn the men in each of the previous 3 seasons.

Kind of surprises me that the discrepency is so much larger this year than in the past though considering that the women had a horrid start, and the men are somewhat entertaining and more competetive than in recent years...................

[sioux2013]

Im sure attendance will be up from the figures you posted once we enter the Big Sky as long as we do well and win.

[ShilohSioux]

Agree, men's numbers should go up when we join the Big Sky, particularly if we're competitive and in the top tier. I gotta believe the doubleheaders benefit the women more than the men, although as a basketball fan and father to two basketball-playing daughters I find the women's team right now and in recent years as entertaining as the men's team. I wonder what will happen to the women's numbers without the doubleheaders. Hopefully they will be a contender most years and those numbers will remain or increase without sharing the gate with the men.

[bincitysioux]

Agree, men's numbers should go up when we join the Big Sky, particularly if we're competitive and in the top tier. I gotta believe the doubleheaders benefit the women more than the men, although as a basketball fan and father to two basketball-playing daughters I find the women's team right now and in recent years as entertaining as the men's team. I wonder what will happen to the women's numbers without the doubleheaders. Hopefully they will be a contender most years and those numbers will remain or increase without sharing the gate with the men.

Since the teams have only played a couple double-headers thus far, the better women's attendance seems to stand on its own. I think in recent seasons the men have been the beneficiaries of the double-headers as a lot of fans left after the women's game during the last few years of NCC play and DI transition years.................

[ShilohSioux]

Could be. Here's comparisons for the past decade, which includes "the last few years of NCC play and DI transition years." Will be interesting to see what happens next year with supposedly 20 BSC games -- none of them doubleheaders.

Men/Women

2009-10 – 1,919 / 1,938

2008-09 – 1,623 / 2,027

2007-08 – 1,865 / 1,900

2006-07 – 2,188 / 2,048

2005-06 – 2,279 / 2,230

2004-05 – 2,791 / 2,313

2003-04 – 2,550 / 2,387

2002-03 – 3,423 / 2,566

2001-02 – 3,857 / 2,843

2000-01 – 2,987 / 2,539

1999-00 – 2,933 / 2,546

[supersioux]

Are we in the Big Sky next year? I thought it was 2012-13

[UND92,96]

Are we in the Big Sky next year? I thought it was 2012-13

You are correct--it's 2012-13.

[ShilohSioux]

You are correct--it's 2012-13.

Well, 2012 is next year.