Conference Realignments

[82SiouxGuy]

I think that's mostly right. With Montana being a border state ND would always keep track of those schools. Plus with Montana State winning the NC and Montana usually doing well in the playoffs we heard about it in the sports pages. The local sports never reported on any MVFC shcools.

Exactly. That's why the Big Sky was seen as a desirable destination for both NDSU and UND as they moved up.

[dakota fairways]

Your reading comprehension really needs work. He said nothing like that. He said that historically (before NDSU moved up), people in this area were much more aware of the Big Sky than the MVFC. They were aware because of the Montana schools. And since those same people weren't really as aware of the MVFC, they didn't pay attention to schools like Illinois State or Missouri State. However, they did pay a little attention to Montana and Montana State. I will add that those same people were aware of UNI, but really had very little idea about who else was in a conference with UNI, whereas most people could have named at least a few of the other teams in the Big Sky.

Thank you, 82Sioux. You understood my intent exactly.

[FargoBison]

Your reading comprehension really needs work. He said nothing like that. He said that historically (before NDSU moved up), people in this area were much more aware of the Big Sky than the MVFC. They were aware because of the Montana schools. And since those same people weren't really as aware of the MVFC, they didn't pay attention to schools like Illinois State or Missouri State. However, they did pay a little attention to Montana and Montana State. I will add that those same people were aware of UNI, but really had very little idea about who else was in a conference with UNI, whereas most people could have named at least a few of the other teams in the Big Sky.

I think historically people knew about the MVC and that dates all the way back to Larry Bird playing for Indiana State. That is why the Gateway changed their name to the Missouri Valley, people are much more familiar with that brand.

The Summit would be a different story but I would never put the Big Sky on the level of the MVC brand. People around here are much more familiar with that conference and would regard it to being better than the Big Sky. A conference that is known as being the Montana's and those other schools.

[gjw007]

I think historically people knew about the MVC and that dates all the way back to Larry Bird playing for Indiana State. That is why the Gateway changed their name to the Missouri Valley, people are much more familiar with that brand.

The Summit would be a different story but I would never put the Big Sky on the level of the MVC brand. People around here are much more familiar with that conference and would regard it to being better than the Big Sky. A conference that is known as being the Montana's and those other schools.

Keep telling yourself that. People are going to remember the MVC brand because of a one-year wonder with Indiana State and the Final Four with Magic Johnson's Michigan State team in, what, '79 versus the numerous reminders of the Big Sky with the Dakota teams playing the Montana schools? This is even re-enforced when NDSU played the Montana schools. I suspect until the last few years, people in the Dakota's were not even aware of the MVC and certainly not when the schools were part of the NCC yet they have been aware of the Big Sky. If you are proud that NDSU is part of the MVC, that is great but I don't see the need to denigrate other schools and conference. In the end, it makes a negative impression about your school and its fans. I am not going to argue which is better or worse as they both appear to be great conferences.

[FargoBison]

Keep telling yourself that. People are going to remember the MVC brand because of a one-year wonder with Indiana State and the Final Four with Magic Johnson's Michigan State team in, what, '79 versus the numerous reminders of the Big Sky with the Dakota teams playing the Montana schools? This is even re-enforced when NDSU played the Montana schools. I suspect until the last few years, people in the Dakota's were not even aware of the MVC and certainly not when the schools were part of the NCC yet they have been aware of the Big Sky. If you are proud that NDSU is part of the MVC, that is great but I don't see the need to denigrate other schools and conference. In the end, it makes a negative impression about your school and its fans. I am not going to argue which is better or worse as they both appear to be great conferences.

When did I denigrate another conference? I just said that the Big Sky isn't really all that well known when compared to the MVC.

[darell1976]

When did I denigrate another conference? I just said that the Big Sky isn't really all that well known when compared to the MVC.

When UND played Northern Iowa in 2006 I didn't know any other team in the MVC (Gateway). They are well known in Fargo because of who NDSU plays ask Joe Blow in Maine who is well known BSC or the MVC....thats your answer. When you say BSC = Montana. MVC = UNI? SIU? or just Indiana State (Larry Bird).

[82SiouxGuy]

I think historically people knew about the MVC and that dates all the way back to Larry Bird playing for Indiana State. That is why the Gateway changed their name to the Missouri Valley, people are much more familiar with that brand.

The Summit would be a different story but I would never put the Big Sky on the level of the MVC brand. People around here are much more familiar with that conference and would regard it to being better than the Big Sky. A conference that is known as being the Montana's and those other schools.

First of all, dakota fairways and I have been talking about the Missouri Valley Football Conference in conjunction with the Summit League, the leagues that NDSU compete in, versus the Big Sky, the league that UND is joining. We were not discussing the Missouri Valley Conference, the league that NDSU would like to join. There is a huge difference between the MVFC and the MVC for all other sports. There are teams that compete in both. But most of the teams that have given the MVC its prominence, are not in the MVFC. Schools like Bradley and Creighton have had some good basketball teams that have played and even won games in the tournament. The MVC has more exposure in the basketball world than the Big Sky does. That exposure hasn't completely crossed over to the football world. And even in basketball, people may know the schools if they have a good run, but they don't know much about the other schools in the conference.

A lot of people still don't know who is in the MVFC. As a matter of fact, it probably confuses them because the schools they know in the MVC don't have football teams in the MVFC. They probably know UNI, may know SIU and may know NDSU or another school. The MVFC has given the conference better visibility than when it was the Gateway, but the majority of the country don't know it and a majority in this area only know it now because NDSU is part of it. Neither the MVFC or the Summit is as well known in this area or around a large part of the country as the Big Sky.

[gjw007]

When did I denigrate another conference? I just said that the Big Sky isn't really all that well known when compared to the MVC.

I should have stated that when some NDSU posters as all (most) Bison fans are not guilty of this (I also think there are some Sioux fans who act this same way toward other schools and conferences as well). All you have to do is go over to Bisonville to read some of these comments. The endless bickering back and forth where each side slams the other gets old.

What proof do you have that the MVC (and the MVFC) are more well known than the Big Sky? I am open to the evidence but really, until a few years ago, I never knew anything about the MVC but I was aware of Indiana States game with Michigan State but nothing else. MVC never came into the discussion whereas the Big Sky has been mentioned numerous times. It would be interesting to see a survey, if it exists - and it probably does for advertising purposes, about how well known each conference is.

[WYOBISONMAN]

Your reading comprehension really needs work. He said nothing like that. He said that historically (before NDSU moved up), people in this area were much more aware of the Big Sky than the MVFC. They were aware because of the Montana schools. And since those same people weren't really as aware of the MVFC, they didn't pay attention to schools like Illinois State or Missouri State. However, they did pay a little attention to Montana and Montana State. I will add that those same people were aware of UNI, but really had very little idea about who else was in a conference with UNI, whereas most people could have named at least a few of the other teams in the Big Sky.

Actually, I would agree with this.....but then again I am from Williston so I have a more western ND perspective on things.

[dakota fairways]

[the Big Sky] is just as good as the MVFC/Summit for a school like UND that is still establishing itself in DI.

What?

The Summit would be a different story but I would never put the Big Sky on the level of the MVC brand. People around here are much more familiar with that conference and would regard it to being better than the Big Sky.

^

||

When did I denigrate another conference? I just said that the Big Sky isn't really all that well known when compared to the MVC.

Huh?

Before NDSU & SDSU joined the Summit (Mid Con), I would be willing to go out on a limb and state that the Big Sky coverage in our area eclipsed the sum total of Gateway and MidCon coverage. When the Bison and Jackrabbits moved to D-I and began playing in the Summit and the MVFC, that all changed. Today, coverage of the Summit and Missouri Valley are relevant to and well covered in the Dakotas. But while NDSU and SDSU have been members of the Summit and MVFC, we are still exposed to the Big Sky in both national and regional sports coverage.

The Missouri Valley Conference is a strong basketball conference and I understand that the Bison are dreaming of one day being invited to the MVC, but the Bison are still playing in the Summit for the foreseeable future. On the other hand, historically the Big Sky is a strong mid major conference and has had a lot of coverage in North Dakota for many years. That is why NDSU and SDSU wanted to be invited to the Big Sky when they moved to D-I in 2004. They have made the most of their conference affiliations and probably elevated and stabilized their conferences by their presence, but admit it, the Big Sky was their first choice too.

As for strength of football conferences, you cannot claim the MVFC is stronger than the BSC. The BSC has had more FCS championship game appearances and FCS Championships than the MVFC in the last decade, two decades and three decades, pick your timeframe.

[FargoBison]

The Big Sky had a lot coverage in ND before 2003? I must have missed it, the Montana schools are as far away as Chicago they got zero coverage in Fargo from what I can remember(same goes for the Gateway). On a national level the Big Sky got the same coverage as the Gateway.

Of course we wanted to join the Big Sky, they were a conference looking for members and Chapman came to NDSU from Montana State. So we had their president's unwavering support. It only made sense, NDSU had interest in joining the Gateway as well and they said we had to pay our dues before anything would happen. The Big Sky was the only conference that showed an immediate interest. If the Mid-Con/Gateway had shown an immediate interest as well things would have been interesting, very interesting.

[coach daddy]

Actually, I would agree with this.....but then again I am from Williston so I have a more western ND perspective on things.

The western perspective makes sense on this argument. Williston has had 2 Mr. Basketball's in the last 6 years (Hennessy and Qvale), both went on to play or are currently playing in the Big Sky. The best in-state player this year is from Dickinson and he's already committed to Boise St. We forget that there are some excellent athletes in this state not from the Valley. Too think the Big Sky Conference is not relevant in the state is narrow-minded.

Oh, by the way, Dickinson St. is applying for membership in which conference? The Frontieer. Most of the schools in that league are in Montana!!!!

[JackJD]

Considering where USD is located and the size of their athletic budget, it would seem that they are in the conference they wanted to be in all along....

My comments are limited to just the subject of USD and the Summit/MVFC. Several posts ago, someone asked whether USD made the decision to stay with the Summit and join the MVFC or whether that decision was made by "higher ups". The above-quoted statement by Dakota Fairway is pretty accurate. The decision was made by USD -- not "higher ups" -- and it was an obvious one for them. (Presumably the poster meant by "higher ups" the South Dakota Board of Regents.) I know there were news reports circulating that suggested USD was consulting with "higher ups" when it had the Big Sky invite in hand and there were efforts in the background to present an invite from the MVFC. USD's admins did a nice job of gathering the facts, making sure things were solid and then announcing its decision.

For USD, being as close as it is to the MVFC schools was a no-brainer. Heck, USD is literally in the Missouri Valley (the river passes by the south edge of Vermillion) -- and just a few schools can claim they are literally located in the valley of the Missouri River.

Comparisons between USD's situation and UND's situation are 'apples-to-oranges'. Nothing against UND at all with that statement: each school had its own reasons, particular conference invitations, etc etc. It sometimes makes for interesting discussion but in most respects including size of budgets, location etc., UND and USD are quite dissimilar. Dakota fairways has it right and USD's administration made the decision.

[Yote 53]

Hold on a minute. Many people at USD wanted to be in the BSC, including the athletic dept. The BSC conference was perceived as the more prestigious conference when compared to the Summit League, The MVFC when compared to the BSC is pretty even with the edge going to one conference or the other depending on the year and the type of season its members put together. Basically, both tough football conferences.

The decision was made for USD by higher ups and monied interests in the state. Sure, Pres Abbott could have chosen the BSC, the decision was ultimately his. By chosing the BSC, however, USD would have given up its basketball arena and some of the major donations that go with it. There was a lot of pressure put on USD with the Argus Leader and power players in Sioux Falls wanting USD to remain in the Summit thereby cementing the Summit League tourney in Sioux Falls and strengthening their position for the new Sioux Falls Arena they have been trying to get for years. When it came down to it, all things being equal, USD would have chosen the BSC, but things weren't equal. You had people with money holding the purse strings, not to mention all those people who wanted the rivalry with SDSU back, on both sides.

When USD does get its basketball arena, with its historically strong basketball program, if/when the MVC looks for new members, given the location of USD's campus and the profile of its education offering (liberal arts/professional school vs agriculture) it's probable USD will be in a better position to gain membership in that conference than either SDSU or NDSU.

[ShilohSioux]

Hold on a minute. Many people at USD wanted to be in the BSC, including the athletic dept. The BSC conference was perceived as the more prestigious conference when compared to the Summit League, The MVFC when compared to the BSC is pretty even with the edge going to one conference or the other depending on the year and the type of season its members put together. Basically, both tough football conferences.

The decision was made for USD by higher ups and monied interests in the state. Sure, Pres Abbott could have chosen the BSC, the decision was ultimately his. By chosing the BSC, however, USD would have given up its basketball arena and some of the major donations that go with it. There was a lot of pressure put on USD with the Argus Leader and power players in Sioux Falls wanting USD to remain in the Summit thereby cementing the Summit League tourney in Sioux Falls and strengthening their position for the new Sioux Falls Arena they have been trying to get for years. When it came down to it, all things being equal, USD would have chosen the BSC, but things weren't equal. You had people with money holding the purse strings, not to mention all those people who wanted the rivalry with SDSU back, on both sides.

When USD does get its basketball arena, with its historically strong basketball program, if/when the MVC looks for new members, given the location of USD's campus and the profile of its education offering (liberal arts/professional school vs agriculture) it's probable USD will be in a better position to gain membership in that conference than either SDSU or NDSU.

In an ideal world, all four Dakota schools would be in the same conference. As you say, the BSC and MVFC are about even when it comes to football, and the BSC is a much stronger/better league that the current Summit for the other sports. Down the road, it would be nice to see all four Dakota schools in either an eastern division of the BSC, or in a revamped MVC that looks like the current football conference. For the moment, I'm delighted UND is in the Big Sky rather than the Summit, but honestly it would be nice to be with the other three Dakota schools too and build on those historic and geographic rivalries.

[Hansel]

In an ideal world, all four Dakota schools would be in the same conference. As you say, the BSC and MVFC are about even when it comes to football, and the BSC is a much stronger/better league that the current Summit for the other sports. Down the road, it would be nice to see all four Dakota schools in either an eastern division of the BSC, or in a revamped MVC that looks like the current football conference. For the moment, I'm delighted UND is in the Big Sky rather than the Summit, but honestly it would be nice to be with the other three Dakota schools too and build on those historic and geographic rivalries.

Currently the Summit is 24th in RPI, and the Big Sky is 26th, In Sagarin the Summit is 17th with the Big Sky 23rd.

The conferences have had pretty similar ratings over the last few years, however the Summit is ditching it worst two teams and adding USD, while the Big Sky is adding what will be two of its worst teams.

The "new Summit" (minus Cent, SUU, +USD) would currently be ranked 16th in RPI, the "new Big Sky" (+ SUU, UND) would currently be ranked 27th in RPI.

Playing the conference tourney in Sioux Falls every year is also nice.

[SIOUXFAN97]

Currently the Summit is 24th in RPI, and the Big Sky is 26th, In Sagarin the Summit is 17th with the Big Sky 23rd.

The conferences have had pretty similar ratings over the last few years, however the Summit is ditching it worst two teams and adding USD, while the Big Sky is adding what will be two of its worst teams.

The "new Summit" (minus Cent, SUU, +USD) would currently be ranked 16th in RPI, the "new Big Sky" (+ SUU, UND) would currently be ranked 27th in RPI.

Playing the conference tourney in Sioux Falls every year is also nice.

Hansel, I don't know about "two of the worst" team joinging the BSC, remember that UND already has a win against Sac State. Also, having post-season tournaments on campus of the regular season champion is better than playing in Sioux Falls in front of a three-quarters empty arena.

[gjw007]

Hansel, I don't know about "two of the worst" team joinging the BSC, remember that UND already has a win against Sac State. Also, having post-season tournaments on campus of the regular season champion is better than playing in Sioux Falls in front of a three-quarters empty arena.

Let's be honest, the current Summit is an upgrade over the Summit from the past and UND is not exactly a powerful basketball team. In both cases, the goal is the NCAA tournament and while, as posted by others, the BSC has had two teams in it in the past, both conferences are basically a one team league to the tournament. You can flip the RPI or Saragin ratings around and it wouldn't make any difference. I would feel stronger toward a conference that has more teams brought into the tournament and also with a conference whose teams went deep into the tournament. I do like that being the conference champion during the regular season has meaning by giving you home playoff games.

[FargoBison]

A three quarters empty arena?

NDSU has played four games in SF...

vs Centenary 5,481

vs SUU 5,986

vs Oakland 3,804

vs ORU 6,285

Capacity 6300

Last year, Oakland vs IUPUI title game... 3,122

[Hansel]

Hansel, I don't know about "two of the worst" team joinging the BSC, remember that UND already has a win against Sac State. Also, having post-season tournaments on campus of the regular season champion is better than playing in Sioux Falls in front of a three-quarters empty arena.

UND has a current RPI of 322 (out of 345 teams) and had a final RPI of 339 last year. Sac State is 1-8 (RPI 342), UND's other DI win was over E. Mich (0-8, RPI 340), while they may improve- It is safe to say that UND would be one of the worst teams in the league.

In 2009 Port St beat Mont St in front of 1500 fans in the Big Sky final when the host Weber lost in the semis. If the reg season champ does not make the final the conference tourney is a bust. If UND were to make the Conference tourney play in round as a 3-6 seed and win- how many fans would be able to make it to a conference tourney in Bozeman/Sacramento/Flagstaff/Ogden etc with only 3-5 days notice?

[ShilohSioux]

Currently the Summit is 24th in RPI, and the Big Sky is 26th, In Sagarin the Summit is 17th with the Big Sky 23rd.

The conferences have had pretty similar ratings over the last few years, however the Summit is ditching it worst two teams and adding USD, while the Big Sky is adding what will be two of its worst teams.

The "new Summit" (minus Cent, SUU, +USD) would currently be ranked 16th in RPI, the "new Big Sky" (+ SUU, UND) would currently be ranked 27th in RPI.

Playing the conference tourney in Sioux Falls every year is also nice.

Perhaps you're right for ONE SPORT (men's basketball), over ONE YEAR (2010-11), but historically the BSC has it all over the Summit and there are many other sports to consider, including women's volleyball and basketball.

[Hansel]

Let's be honest, the current Summit is an upgrade over the Summit from the past and UND is not exactly a powerful basketball team. In both cases, the goal is the NCAA tournament and while, as posted by others, the BSC has had two teams in it in the past, both conferences are basically a one team league to the tournament. You can flip the RPI or Saragin ratings around and it wouldn't make any difference. I would feel stronger toward a conference that has more teams brought into the tournament and also with a conference whose teams went deep into the tournament. I do like that being the conference champion during the regular season has meaning by giving you home playoff games.

when was the last time the Big Sky had two bids?

[Hansel]

Perhaps you're right for ONE SPORT (men's basketball), over ONE YEAR (2010-11), but historically the BSC has it all over the Summit and there are many other sports to consider, including women's volleyball and basketball.

Historically the Big Sky had Nevado, Idaho, Boise, Utah State etc but has replaced them with Portland St, Sac St, UNC, EWU, SUU, and UND.

With the current/future makeup of the conferences the Summit will be as good/slightly better than the BSC in the major sports

[The Sicatoka]

With the current/future makeup of the conferences the Summit will be as good/slightly better than the BSC in the major sports

You're implicitly assuming that teams won't change (get better or worse) over time.

That's not an assumption that holds over history.

[Yote 53]

Given the two conferences are essentially one bid leagues, I move to the next criteria when judging the conferences, stability. The BSC is more stable than the Summit, though the Summit has solidified with the addition of the Dakota schools and is forging an identity as a midwest based conference.