Future Schedules

[darell1976]

They gain what is normally an easier home game with a small guarantee. That allows them to bank most of the gate. And if you are having a successful season you will sell a lot of tickets for one of those games. As was said earlier, many FCS teams have one of these games on the schedule. All of the BCS teams did it this year except Weber, and they had 2 BCS games instead. Montana has done it for years and it hasn't hurt their marquee level. The result is the same, a bigger than normal payday. And the other Dakota schools have done it too. You will see one lesser opponent at home on the schedule most years going forward.

How come NDSU, or SDSU has yet to schedule a D2 or NAIA team since becoming playoff eligible....maybe they feel like we are D1 lets play D1 teams. I like that philosophy. Lets play St. Cloud in D1 hockey ONLY!!!

[star2city]

They gain what is normally an easier home game with a small guarantee. That allows them to bank most of the gate. And if you are having a successful season you will sell a lot of tickets for one of those games. As was said earlier, many FCS teams have one of these games on the schedule. All of the BCS teams did it this year except Weber, and they had 2 BCS games instead. Montana has done it for years and it hasn't hurt their marquee level. The result is the same, a bigger than normal payday. And the other Dakota schools have done it too. You will see one lesser opponent at home on the schedule most years going forward.

In 2012, are 12 games allowed in FCS? Could a South Dakota game still be scheduled?

Montana only rarely schedules FBS games, and when they do it is for huge guarantees like > $500 (Tennessee in 2011, Iowa a couple of years ago). Since FBS games are usually losses, scheduling a DII or NAIA means that seven or eight of the nine FCS games must be wins to make the playoffs - which is awfully tough no matter who the opponent is. With 3 FBS opponents, UND barely matches Montana's take in one FBS game. Furthermore, the upcoming Fresno St, San Diego St, Idaho, and N Mex St games are all relatively low $ guarantees. None of them can afford much more than $250 k (and in Idaho's case UND doesn't even break even).

A lot of the scheduling difficulty UND is facing all goes back to Buning. His scheduling of two Idaho games for only $100 k each was one of the most boneheaded decisions by any AD. Idaho's AD probably couldn't believe their good fortune and Buning's lack of bargaining. If Buning had had any sense, he would have held out for at least $225 k - that would have helped pay for a guarantee games rather than the smaller $'s thrown at Montana Western and Black Hills State. Instead, UND doesn't even break even on going to Moscow twice. Ridiculous.

[82SiouxGuy]

How come NDSU, or SDSU has yet to schedule a D2 or NAIA team since becoming playoff eligible....maybe they feel like we are D1 lets play D1 teams. I like that philosophy. Lets play St. Cloud in D1 hockey ONLY!!!

No, NDSU has played DI powers like Wagner State instead. A potential cupcake is a potential cupcake. Having the DI label would be nice, but it really doesn't mean that much for those type games. And the cost of bringing in a Wagner State may not be worth it compared to the cost of bringing in a St Cloud State. Money is important to the Athletic Department, even if it isn't to you. If they can have a game where they can make a significant profit while still having a pretty good chance at a win, and have it at home for the local fans, it is a win-win situation for the Atheltic Department. Not everything is about the macho image the fans want the program to portray.

[82SiouxGuy]

In 2012, are 12 games allowed in FCS? Could a South Dakota game still be scheduled?

Montana only rarely schedules FBS games, and when they do it is for huge guarantees like > $500 (Tennessee in 2011, Iowa a couple of years ago). Since FBS games are usually losses, scheduling a DII or NAIA means that seven or eight of the nine FCS games must be wins to make the playoffs - which is awfully tough no matter who the opponent is. With 3 FBS opponents, UND barely matches Montana's take in one FBS game. Furthermore, the upcoming Fresno St, San Diego St, Idaho, and N Mex St games are all relatively low $ guarantees. None of them can afford much more than $250 k (and in Idaho's case UND doesn't even break even).

A lot of the scheduling difficulty UND is facing all goes back to Buning. His scheduling of two Idaho games for only $100 k each was one of the most boneheaded decisions by any AD. Idaho's AD probably couldn't believe their good fortune and Buning's lack of bargaining. If Buning had had any sense, he would have held out for at least $225 k - that would have helped pay for a guarantee games rather than the smaller $'s thrown at Montana Western and Black Hills State. Instead, UND doesn't even break even on going to Moscow twice. Ridiculous.

I don't know if 2012 is a year that they can have 12 games or not. But it is not exactly fair to compare what UND is getting for a guarantee game to what Montana gets. Montana has built up a reputation as a powerhouse program in FCS so they get the big games. UND still isn't out of transition. People have to realize that the program is still learning to walk at this level, they aren't ready to run. Yes, Bunning made a lot of mistakes. But he is gone. They are dealing with the current situation. Things get much better in 2012 and will continue to get better. That is the magic of getting into a quality conference. But being in a conference for 2012 and beyond does absolutely nothing for 2011 and earlier, so they are getting through the transition as best they can.

[MoSiouxFan]

In 2012, are 12 games allowed in FCS? Could a South Dakota game still be scheduled?

Montana only rarely schedules FBS games, and when they do it is for huge guarantees like > $500 (Tennessee in 2011, Iowa a couple of years ago). Since FBS games are usually losses, scheduling a DII or NAIA means that seven or eight of the nine FCS games must be wins to make the playoffs - which is awfully tough no matter who the opponent is. With 3 FBS opponents, UND barely matches Montana's take in one FBS game. Furthermore, the upcoming Fresno St, San Diego St, Idaho, and N Mex St games are all relatively low $ guarantees. None of them can afford much more than $250 k (and in Idaho's case UND doesn't even break even).

A lot of the scheduling difficulty UND is facing all goes back to Buning. His scheduling of two Idaho games for only $100 k each was one of the most boneheaded decisions by any AD. Idaho's AD probably couldn't believe their good fortune and Buning's lack of bargaining. If Buning had had any sense, he would have held out for at least $225 k - that would have helped pay for a guarantee games rather than the smaller $'s thrown at Montana Western and Black Hills State. Instead, UND doesn't even break even on going to Moscow twice. Ridiculous.

That's right. Many constantly complain about Faison, but, as in the Idaho situation cited by Star2, we're still paying the price for what was done prior to his coming. Wonder if Lennon would still be here if it weren't for the disaster of the previous athletic administration.

[star2city]

I don't know if 2012 is a year that they can have 12 games or not. But it is not exactly fair to compare what UND is getting for a guarantee game to what Montana gets. Montana has built up a reputation as a powerhouse program in FCS so they get the big games. UND still isn't out of transition. People have to realize that the program is still learning to walk at this level, they aren't ready to run. Yes, Bunning made a lot of mistakes. But he is gone. They are dealing with the current situation. Things get much better in 2012 and will continue to get better. That is the magic of getting into a quality conference. But being in a conference for 2012 and beyond does absolutely nothing for 2011 and earlier, so they are getting through the transition as best they can.

The bottom line though, if UND is about maximizing the chances of making the playoffs, is to limit a schedule to 1 FBS with 1 FCS non-scholly or 1 DII without an FBS. It would have made more sense to schedule Drake in 2012 rather than 2011.

[ShilohSioux]

The bottom line though, if UND is about maximizing the chances of making the playoffs, is to limit a schedule to 1 FBS with 1 FCS non-scholly or 1 DII without an FBS. It would have made more sense to schedule Drake in 2012 rather than 2011.

Is there any way to confirm the St. Cloud rumor? Ironic that a game with non-scholarship Drake would count for post-season but a game against a solid Div. II program with 30-something scholarships does not.

Other than the post-season qualification issue, the St. Cloud game makes sense for all involved. Good crowd (SCSU will bring some fans), the Huskies are playing well lately so it's likely to be a competitive game, low payout on our part, the Huskies can bus here, coverage in the MSP media, etc...... If played on the open Sept. 1 date, this might be the first contest with the new mascot/nickname.

[darell1976]

2013, 2014 and 2019 are the 12 game seasons. If we play the Wagners or the St. Francis or D1 (cupcakes) it counts as a D1 game. We play D2 St Cloud or whoever from D2 or NAIA it doesn't count as far as playoffs go. We need 7 D1 wins. How does beating St. Cloud help us if we end up with 6 D1 wins and a win against SCSU. Every game counts when playoffs are on the line (except non D1 games).

[dlsiouxfan]

Is there any way to confirm the St. Cloud rumor? Ironic that a game with non-scholarship Drake would count for post-season but a game against a solid Div. II program with 30-something scholarships does not.

Other than the post-season qualification issue, the St. Cloud game makes sense for all involved. Good crowd (SCSU will bring some fans), the Huskies are playing well lately so it's likely to be a competitive game, low payout on our part, the Huskies can bus here, coverage in the MSP media, etc...... If played on the open Sept. 1 date, this might be the first contest with the new mascot/nickname.

Well the rules state that a non-scholarship Drake counts for post-season and a solid D2 program with 30- something scholarships does not and if Faison wants to remain the AD he at least better start scheduling like he knows the rules.

Second, playing St. Cloud State does absolutely nothing for this program. All it does is set up a trap game that hurts our program whether we blow them out by 30 points or if we crap down our legs and lose. St. Cloud fans don't travel for anything other than hockey so likely this will be another game that won't draw flies and likely lose money for the athletic department. If we want to play teams with 30 scholarship let's play a MEAC or NEC team in Grand Forks and get a win that will actually count towards playoff qualification.

[darell1976]

Well the rules state that a non-scholarship Drake counts for post-season and a solid D2 program with 30- something scholarships does not and if Faison wants to remain the AD he at least better start scheduling like he knows the rules.

Second, playing St. Cloud State does absolutely nothing for this program. All it does is set up a trap game that hurts our program whether we blow them out by 30 points or if we crap down our legs and lose. St. Cloud fans don't travel for anything other than hockey so likely this will be another game that won't draw flies and likely lose money for the athletic department. If we want to play teams with 30 scholarship let's play a MEAC or NEC team in Grand Forks and get a win that will actually count towards playoff qualification.

I agree. What would make this an attendance getter? Because its St. Cloud? If fans know that this game does nothing but hurt our chances at the playoffs they won't show up. I know I am NOT driving up from Fargo to see the Sioux play a D2 or NAIA game in 2012 or beyond. D2 days are done...move on UND!!!

[ShilohSioux]

I agree. What would make this an attendance getter? Because its St. Cloud? If fans know that this game does nothing but hurt our chances at the playoffs they won't show up. I know I am NOT driving up from Fargo to see the Sioux play a D2 or NAIA game in 2012 or beyond. D2 days are done...move on UND!!!

Sure, it would be better to play a FCS team at home rather than a D-II team but unless you've been involved in negotiating schedules and payouts you might not understand how tough this can be. Most will expect some kind of payout to come here and we may not be able to afford it. And travel costs $$$ too (as someone noted, we're losing $$$ going to Idaho for 100K payout). Drake may not be able or willing to come after next year -- we don't know what's been explored or discussed. What we WANT and what we can GET may be two different things. There's a reason why all BSC teams but Weber last year played a D-II team. Montana and MSU play these games annually. We may have to as well.

[82SiouxGuy]

Sure, it would be better to play a FCS team at home rather than a D-II team but unless you've been involved in negotiating schedules and payouts you might not understand how tough this can be. Most will expect some kind of payout to come here and we may not be able to afford it. And travel costs $$$ too (as someone noted, we're losing $$$ going to Idaho for 100K payout). Drake may not be able or willing to come after next year -- we don't know what's been explored or discussed. What we WANT and what we can GET may be two different things. There's a reason why all BSC teams but Weber last year played a D-II team. Montana and MSU play these games annually. We may have to as well.

It seems to me that I've seen numbers like $50,000 payouts for DII games. And a rumor said that NDSU payed $125,000 for Wagner. If those numbers are correct, and you figure $15 per ticket, you would need to attract 5,000 more fans to see Wagner than St Cloud State just to break even. Is UND going to attract 5,000 more people for a game against Wagner than a game against St Cloud State?

[dakotadan]

Jesh, how dare we as fans want to see UND play DI schools now that we are a DI team. It must all be about the macho image the fans want the program to portray.

[82SiouxGuy]

Jesh, how dare we as fans want to see UND play DI schools now that we are a DI team. It must all be about the macho image the fans want the program to portray.

Why do fans of all the BCS schools let their teams play FCS schools? Why do the fans of so many other FCS schools let their teams play DII or NAIA schools? First, the fans aren't making the decisions, the schools are. And they make those decisions for financial reasons in many cases. The reality is that finances are a part of collegiate athletics. Schools schedule home games against lower division schools for the money. The constant whining about playing "lesser schools" can get really silly. Putting a winning program on the field is very important. But the financial aspect of athletics is at least as important to the institutions. Even the biggest programs in college athletics keep at least 1 eye on the bottom line, the difference is that they have a lot more dollars to play with.

[dakotadan]

Why do fans of all the BCS schools let their teams play FCS schools? Why do the fans of so many other FCS schools let their teams play DII or NAIA schools? First, the fans aren't making the decisions, the schools are. And they make those decisions for financial reasons in many cases. The reality is that finances are a part of collegiate athletics. Schools schedule home games against lower division schools for the money. The constant whining about playing "lesser schools" can get really silly. Putting a winning program on the field is very important. But the financial aspect of athletics is at least as important to the institutions. Even the biggest programs in college athletics keep at least 1 eye on the bottom line, the difference is that they have a lot more dollars to play with.

Oh trust me, I know plenty about how college athletics are run. But there is nothing wrong with our fans wanting to see DI FCS games coming to Grand Forks instead of D2 games, especially after the pathetic scheduling we have had the last few years. As far as I am concerned, we shouldn't be playing FBS schools simply for the paycheck either. If we are that $$$ strapped that we can't find reasonable FCS guarantee games or FCS home/homes, maybe we should have stayed in DII. There are already too many welfare schools in DI.

And the comment about people wanting to see FCS games as being about a "macho image" was about the dumbest comment I have seen on here in a while. And there have been ALOT of dumb comments on this board lately.

[dmksioux]

Sure, it would be better to play a FCS team at home rather than a D-II team but unless you've been involved in negotiating schedules and payouts you might not understand how tough this can be. Most will expect some kind of payout to come here and we may not be able to afford it. And travel costs $$$ too (as someone noted, we're losing $$$ going to Idaho for 100K payout). Drake may not be able or willing to come after next year -- we don't know what's been explored or discussed. What we WANT and what we can GET may be two different things. There's a reason why all BSC teams but Weber last year played a D-II team. Montana and MSU play these games annually. We may have to as well.

A big reason Big Sky teams play DII teams is because of numbers. There just aren't any FCS schools in the west other than Big Sky and Great West teams (soon to be Big Sky only). It costs them more money to get FCS schools to go out west. We are somewhat in the same postion, however, we do have the other three dakotas, UNI, and Drake who are all relatively close. Hopefully our non-conference games will see more of these teams on the schedule in the future...

[ShilohSioux]

But there is nothing wrong with our fans wanting to see DI FCS games coming to Grand Forks instead of D2 games, especially after the pathetic scheduling we have had the last few years.

Dan, I think we're all in agreement that the preference is to have a full DI schedule. I know I would. I think we would all like to see us play those three non league games against the other Dakota schools, MVFC teams, or even the regional non-scholly Drakes, with perhaps a FBS team thrown in most years to help with the budget or morale (witness NDSU and USD wins over the Gophers, and the Bison win over KU). But I think where some of us are disagreeing is over what is feasible. As 82SiouxGuy says, there is a huge financial driver here that may force us to play a D-II team most years even after we're post-season eligible and in the Big Sky. This finanical factor trumps even the seven-win-over-DI teams rule as it can impact whether or not programs are viable. I trust the AD and university to understand this better than we do and believe they are looking out for the program's interests. There's a reason why FCS teams like Hofstra, Northeastern, East Tennessee State, Evansville and Cal State Northridge dropped football in the past decade and it's completely related to $$$$, not the product they put on the field. And teams that are starting or resuming programs, such as Georgia State, Lamar and Old Dominion are scheduling with $$$ in mind as well. Unfortunate, perhaps, but that's the rules of the game these days.

[UND Fan]

Dan, I think we're all in agreement that the preference is to have a full DI schedule. I know I would. I think we would all like to see us play those three non league games against the other Dakota schools, MVFC teams, or even the regional non-scholly Drakes, with perhaps a FBS team thrown in most years to help with the budget or morale (witness NDSU and USD wins over the Gophers, and the Bison win over KU). But I think where some of us are disagreeing is over what is feasible. As 82SiouxGuy says, there is a huge financial driver here that may force us to play a D-II team most years even after we're post-season eligible and in the Big Sky. This finanical factor trumps even the seven-win-over-DI teams rule as it can impact whether or not programs are viable. I trust the AD and university to understand this better than we do and believe they are looking out for the program's interests. There's a reason why FCS teams like Hofstra, Northeastern, East Tennessee State, Evansville and Cal State Northridge dropped football in the past decade and it's completely related to $$$$, not the product they put on the field. And teams that are starting or resuming programs, such as Georgia State, Lamar and Old Dominion are scheduling with $$$ in mind as well. Unfortunate, perhaps, but that's the rules of the game these days.

Well said!

[82SiouxGuy]

Oh trust me, I know plenty about how college athletics are run. But there is nothing wrong with our fans wanting to see DI FCS games coming to Grand Forks instead of D2 games, especially after the pathetic scheduling we have had the last few years. As far as I am concerned, we shouldn't be playing FBS schools simply for the paycheck either. If we are that $$$ strapped that we can't find reasonable FCS guarantee games or FCS home/homes, maybe we should have stayed in DII. There are already too many welfare schools in DI.

And the comment about people wanting to see FCS games as being about a "macho image" was about the dumbest comment I have seen on here in a while. And there have been ALOT of dumb comments on this board lately.

Sorry if you didn't like the comment, but it applies. It isn't just about wanting to see FCS games. That is only a small part of it. I was referring to the attitude some people have that UND is so superior to all other schools that they don't have to deal with the same issues and problems. That losing to some schools is "unacceptable". Everything is wonderful if UND wins and horrible if UND loses. If a team has one of those "unacceptable losses", then the coach should be fired. If they win a game then the coach should be nominated for coach of the year.

As far as I can tell, most FCS schools are cash strapped to some extent. That is why so many play the FBS games. Many FCS schools aren't interested in the home and homes, and they don't want to take a reasonable FCS guarantee when they can either take a big payday from FBS or take in a big gate at home with a lesser opponent. Montana is a perfect example. They have had great success in FCS football but had major financial issues until they adopted that policy. Athletic directors have been saying that for the last couple of years. And to be perfectly honest, similar financial factors would have affected UND if they had stayed in DII. Whether you like it or not, finances are a part of the picture and are always going to affect the product on the field.

[dlsiouxfan]

Sorry if you didn't like the comment, but it applies. It isn't just about wanting to see FCS games. That is only a small part of it. I was referring to the attitude some people have that UND is so superior to all other schools that they don't have to deal with the same issues and problems. That losing to some schools is "unacceptable". Everything is wonderful if UND wins and horrible if UND loses. If a team has one of those "unacceptable losses", then the coach should be fired. If they win a game then the coach should be nominated for coach of the year.

As far as I can tell, most FCS schools are cash strapped to some extent. That is why so many play the FBS games. Many FCS schools aren't interested in the home and homes, and they don't want to take a reasonable FCS guarantee when they can either take a big payday from FBS or take in a big gate at home with a lesser opponent. Montana is a perfect example. They have had great success in FCS football but had major financial issues until they adopted that policy. Athletic directors have been saying that for the last couple of years. And to be perfectly honest, similar financial factors would have affected UND if they had stayed in DII. Whether you like it or not, finances are a part of the picture and are always going to affect the product on the field.

The greatest indictment of this argument comes from the two schools immediately south of us. NDSU and SDSU have both been able to fill their schedules since they became playoff eligible without resorting to playing Division II and NAIA schools. Why should a school the caliber of UND settle for such poor scheduling while lesser universities like NDSU and SDSU haven't had similar problems? The athletic department needs to get rid of the piss-poor excuses.

[mksioux]

Is there any way to confirm the St. Cloud rumor? Ironic that a game with non-scholarship Drake would count for post-season but a game against a solid Div. II program with 30-something scholarships does not.

Other than the post-season qualification issue, the St. Cloud game makes sense for all involved. Good crowd (SCSU will bring some fans), the Huskies are playing well lately so it's likely to be a competitive game, low payout on our part, the Huskies can bus here, coverage in the MSP media, etc...... If played on the open Sept. 1 date, this might be the first contest with the new mascot/nickname.

St. Cloud State football gets absolutely no media coverage in the Twin Cities. (other than a couple stories when they were considering dropping the program)

[mksioux]

It would be very disappointing to see St. Cloud State on the schedule. I think most people realized how hard it was to schedule in the GWFC, with only two conference home games guaranteed. But scheduling was supposed to get better with the Big Sky. With eight conference games and UND being in a different conference than the rest of the regional FCS schools, non-conference scheduling should not be that difficult. If we can't get an FCS "cupcake" to come to Grand Forks at an affordable price, then we shouldn't schedule one. I'd rather roll with a really tough non-conference schedule than to schedule a game that does nothing to advance UND's playoff chances, which I thought was the whole point.

[Herd]

I've got $500, do you think if I made it $1000 we could get Tennessee to come to GF?

For an eligible DI FCS team its all about trying to make the playoffs. Ask Montana about their 2010 scheduling . . . they ended up 7-4, just like NDSU, but NDSU went to the playoffs instead of Montana. Why? One of Montana's wins was against a DII. If you play a DII, your margin for error in earning 7 DI wins is razor thin. If you can avoid playing down, avoid it. Better off trying to bring in a MEAC, Northeast Conf, Pioneer, etc, etc, than playing a DII. Ya, NDSU or UND could play SCSU, but it wouldn't make any playoff sense. You might be able to pay a smaller guarantee, but why even do it if it could cost you a playoff opportunity.

And FBS vs. FCS, they count for both. (For FBS, 1 FCS game/year counts) Montana's been the exception to playing FBS teams, but are finnally stepping back up again next year. They would be wise to schedule some possibly winnable FBS games though.

[ShilohSioux]

It would be very disappointing to see St. Cloud State on the schedule. I think most people realized how hard it was to schedule in the GWFC, with only two conference home games guaranteed. But scheduling was supposed to get better with the Big Sky. With eight conference games and UND being in a different conference than the rest of the regional FCS schools, non-conference scheduling should not be that difficult. If we can't get an FCS "cupcake" to come to Grand Forks at an affordable price, then we shouldn't schedule one. I'd rather roll with a really tough non-conference schedule than to schedule a game that does nothing to advance UND's playoff chances, which I thought was the whole point.

This is the best point I've seen so far. We should be attractive to MVFC teams for a close-by non-league game, assuming we're willing to play home-and-away series.

[ShilohSioux]

If we can't get an FCS "cupcake" to come to Grand Forks at an affordable price, then we shouldn't schedule one.

Maybe we'd have better luck scheduling these teams if we didn't refer to them as "cupcakes." Would you want to come to Grand Forks if that's the respect your opponent had for you?