Fargo Smoking Ban

[Oxbow6]

Fixed your post. And how do you know, did you ask?

Clarification is your friend.

Tag, you're it...

Didn't want to ask!? Might be TMI!

[Oxbow6]

No need to try again. There is no limits on the consumption of alcohol. What there is a limit on is what you can do when impaired. You can lose your license to drive with out ever having a drink if you are a hazard on the road. Your argument isn't valid. Drinking isn't limited, driving reckless (impaired) is limited. Same as if you drive reckless by while lighting a fag or talking on the mobile phone or eating a cheeseburger. You will get cited for reckless driving for a whole slew of things.

Is there a limit on smoking? And the point is not about losing your driver's license. The point, which you brought up, was limiting a legal product which is infringing on your rights.

andtheHomeoftheSIOUX meet DaveK. Now go play but don't run with the scissors!

[Oxbow6]

, again. What's the matter, can't you handle somebody rolling their eyes at what you have to say? This just in... we don't all share the same values and opinions.

You can and will roll your eyes because you are too bent on your "rights" to see the big picture...which again I can draw for you if need be.

[Sioux-cia]

First, Sioux-cia, I apologize if I sounded like I was attacking you personally. My "high-horse" comment was directed towards everyone who feels that they have the right/obligation to tell other people what to do "for their own good." If you feel you fall in that particular group, that's on you...

As an aside, I agree with you on most other topics. (Except for Prpich, he's all yours as far as I'm concerned).

We're cool! As most who know me know, I enjoy a good discussion but when I feel it's turning into a 'insult debate', it's no fun. But, I will admit there are person's on this forum that I don't like mainly because of things they have done 'in the real world'. Sometimes, I just can't help myself and I stoop to doing to them what I don't like done to me!!

What!?!?!? I can keep Prp!?!?! Ok then! I will.

[Sioux-cia]

Smoking was a everywhere back in those days, and somehow we all miraculously turned out okay.

siouxjoy, how's that chronic respiratory condition you acquired from your mother's second hand smoke doing?

Hey, Dad, how about we..... Hmm, oh yeah, you died, lung cancer.

[Oxbow6]

Please point me to a sketch of this "big picture" that you speak of. I understand that smoking is not good for you, but people forget that up until the last 20 years or so it didn't carry the stigma that it does today. Those of us who are old enough to remember the 70's or even earlier times grew up in a society where it was generally accepted that smoking is something that roughly half the adults in America did at that time. Smoking was a everywhere back in those days, and somehow we all miraculously turned out okay. The way these self-righteous anti-smoking zealots spew their propaganda, it's amazing we didn't all die from second hand smoke inhalation by the time we reached 18. How did we manage to survive as a species for all those years?

Dave, Dave...stop living in the "WAS"!

Also during your "times", gas was under a buck and there was prayer in school. Things change and not always for the preceived good! Gas is $4--bad. Prayer and God are out of schools--bad.

So your argument is because smoking was widely accepted in the 70's, it should still be in 2008? And further more, all the industries, i.e. airlines as an example, that decided to ban smoking since your "time" are/were wrong to do so?

[Oxbow6]

siouxjoy, how's that chronic respiratory condition you acquired from your mother's second hand smoke doing?

Hey, Dad, how about we..... Hmm, oh yeah, you died, lung cancer.

How about the 70+ year old who smoked for 30+ years, but stopped 17 years ago. Developed COPD 6 years ago and can't figure out how he got COPD as he stopped smoking 17 years ago--not that he got COPD from smoking for 30+ years. By the way, he loves golfing with that O2 tank slung around his shoulder/neck! And the fact that he is out of breath walking from his cart to the green.

[sprig]

I would have loved it if 70's adults had mandated smoke free bars for me when I was in my 20's.

[andtheHomeoftheSIOUX!!]

1. You can believe what you want but the city will not allow you to raise angus cattle or thoroughbred horses on your private property. In, GF you're not allowed to own more than two dogs per family unit! Someone reported me when my son moved home for a short time with his two dogs because I aleady had one!! AND I have a six foot fence around my lot and a half!

2. Your not wearing a helmet and sustaining traumatic head injures will result in around 4 million dollars for life time medical care. Then there are those nasty home modifications, ridiculous acute rehabilitation costs, and if you're lucky, there are 'supportive employment' costs. Those are just a few of the costs for traumatic brain injury sustained from riding a motorcycle without a helmet. There are more, just don't have the desire to list them. Do you have funeral insurance? If you don't, add $10-15,000 that your family is going to have to shell out of their pockets to bury or burn you.

3. I don't want to live anywhere else either. But, I'm not so naive' that I believe I'm living in a 'free' society.

4. I don't believe that a complete smoking ban would work. Alchohol prohibition didn't work. I just don't want it where it adversely affects people who don't smoke. I've been reading about 'don't like it don't work there, don't go there'. Not so easy for some. One of the best paying jobs for a mom is bartender/bar waitress. She works nights. Dad stays home at night. No exhorbitant daycare costs. You think she's going to go work for a significantly less wage and have less for her famil?. Anyone even suggesting it isn't remembering what their own parents sacrificed for them!

How many young adults are driven by what their peers want. In a group of 6, one smokes, so rather than leave that person out, they go to a smoky bar. I know, it's their choice,but it's either go with the flow or stay home when you're a certain age. I'm convinced that the 'common sense' gene doesn't kick in until you're well over 30.

Light 'em, smoke 'em, enjoy 'em. Just don't do it in a public establishment or in my home/car.

1. That is a dumb law. A limit on how many dogs I can have on my property??? Thanks for informing me on that one. I don't live in Grand Forks, but boy, that is a crazy law. I would hope you agree.

2. When I ride motorcycle, I always where a helmet. But like I said before, I don't believe society should have to pay for some idiots decisions.

3. I am not naive. I am trying to move the country in the direction I believe is best for it.

4. I think we can all agree peer pressure is generally a bad thing. But the solution to that is to change the attitudes of young people.

[Slamdance]

You guys are doing it again...

For me (and probably for some others here), it is not about smoking as much as it is about the steady erosion of personal freedoms.

Smoking = bad. OK, got it.

People get sick and die from all sorts of causes. So are we to ban from the public everything that has the potential to get you sick, hurt you, or kill you?

Is that really the society you want to live in?

Do you really want the gov't to regulate every aspect of your life "for the greater good" or (my personal favorite) "for the children's sake"?

I played with fireworks and rode skateboards and bicycles without a helmet my entire childhood. I have all my digits and no dain bramage as far as you know.

Now, kids are required to wear helmets and most of the really effin' cool fireworks are only available in Tijuana. Boring...

All in all, it's a moot point here in CA, but it really bothers me that this "let the gov't be my mom" mentality is infecting the one place I thought individuality would have been prized.

If I was a bar owner in Fargo, I would be furious. It's my bar. I allow smoking here. If you don't like smoking, don't work here or drink here. Pretty effin' simple, if you ask me. Not to mention, (like I already did) that if it was my bar, and other bars allowed smoking and I didn't, what a great marketing tool that has just been lost. There's your big picture.

[Sioux-cia]

You guys are doing it again...

For me (and probably for some others here), it is not about smoking as much as it is about the steady erosion of personal freedoms.

Smoking = bad. OK, got it.

People get sick and die from all sorts of causes. So are we to ban from the public everything that has the potential to get you sick, hurt you, or kill you?

Is that really the society you want to live in?

Do you really want the gov't to regulate every aspect of your life "for the greater good" or (my personal favorite) "for the children's sake"?

Asbestos, lead based paint, flourinated water, mandatory immunizations, government regulated building codes, mandatory education, ...........

I'm all for regulations that serve the greater good and for the children's sake.

[Sioux-cia]

1. That is a dumb law. A limit on how many dogs I can have on my property??? Thanks for informing me on that one. I don't live in Grand Forks, but boy, that is a crazy law. I would hope you agree.

2. When I ride motorcycle, I always where a helmet. But like I said before, I don't believe society should have to pay for some idiots decisions.

3. I am not naive. I am trying to move the country in the direction I believe is best for it.

4. I think we can all agree peer pressure is generally a bad thing. But the solution to that is to change the attitudes of young people.

1. I agree, it's a crazy law.

2. I don't believe society should pay for idiots decisions either but we do.

3. Me, too.

4. As a woman who, in spite of it all, managed to raise two young men, who, IMO, turned out pretty well, please, tell me how to change the attitudes of young people!! I'll pass it on the them and, maybe, they won't have to dye their hair at an extremely ( ) young age!!!!

[Goon]

You guys are doing it again...

For me (and probably for some others here), it is not about smoking as much as it is about the steady erosion of personal freedoms.

Smoking = bad. OK, got it.

People get sick and die from all sorts of causes. So are we to ban from the public everything that has the potential to get you sick, hurt you, or kill you?

Is that really the society you want to live in?

Do you really want the gov't to regulate every aspect of your life "for the greater good" or (my personal favorite) "for the children's sake"?

I played with fireworks and rode skateboards and bicycles without a helmet my entire childhood. I have all my digits and no dain bramage as far as you know.

Now, kids are required to wear helmets and most of the really effin' cool fireworks are only available in Tijuana. Boring...

All in all, it's a moot point here in CA, but it really bothers me that this "let the gov't be my mom" mentality is infecting the one place I thought individuality would have been prized.

If I was a bar owner in Fargo, I would be furious. It's my bar. I allow smoking here. If you don't like smoking, don't work here or drink here. Pretty effin' simple, if you ask me. Not to mention, (like I already did) that if it was my bar, and other bars allowed smoking and I didn't, what a great marketing tool that has just been lost. There's your big picture.

I am all for personal freedoms myself, I am worried about gun owners rights and freedoms that are being taken away from me. Like I said you can do all the drugs and booze you want in your house as long as your not driving on the highway, flying my plane or driving my bus or driving anywhere where you could kill me or my family and friends I am fine with that. Smoking at a place like McDonald's or a restaurant where my daughter is don't think so. I am not even against smoking in bars but I also think we need to have some perspective, your freedoms are not extended to compromising others health. Heck at Altru you can't even smoke on the grounds or chew snuff anymore if my wife explained it to me right. Are people going to sue them now?

[Slamdance]

Asbestos, lead based paint, flourinated water, mandatory immunizations, government regulated building codes, mandatory education, ...........

I'm all for regulations that serve the greater good and for the children's sake.

None of the things you listed infringe on personal freedoms, except in the loosest of definitions.

[Slamdance]

your freedoms are not extended to compromising others health

I am not referring to compromising anyone's health, except with their informed consent. This is what I am referring to:

If I was a bar owner in Fargo, I would be furious. It's my bar. I allow smoking here. If you don't like smoking, don't work here or drink here. Pretty effin' simple, if you ask me. Not to mention, (like I already did) that if it was my bar, and other bars allowed smoking and I didn't, what a great marketing tool that has just been lost. There's your big picture.

[andtheHomeoftheSIOUX!!]

1. I agree, it's a crazy law.

2. I don't believe society should pay for idiots decisions either but we do.

3. Me, too.

4. As a woman who, in spite of it all, managed to raise two young men, who, IMO, turned out pretty well, please, tell me how to change the attitudes of young people!! I'll pass it on the them and, maybe, they won't have to dye their hair at an extremely ( ) young age!!!!

See, we agree on stuff. I think we have all made our points. Basically, we all have different ideas on what should happen. It is good to have a place for discussion like this forum. Thanks Jim. Also, thanks for keeping stuff civil, Sioux-cia. But hey, I am still right!

[Cratter]

And, as was said on the movie the "F-word"...

"...the Republicans are trying to take my porn and the Democrats are trying to take my guns. Who speaks for me?"

Great quote. The two party system is ruining our country. We feel we must pick a side and stick with what they believe. Not ourselves. We will fight the other side. The answer to your question is the Libertarian Party - The one that wants less government in peoples lives. The party of Real Change. The one party that would bring people together.

Like others have said I am not "for smoking" (I don't smoke), I am "pro freedom of choice" on virtually every issue. We understand the "health" arguments, but those can be said about riding a motorcycle and smoking tobacco in general, not against government regulation....as others say it sounds more like outlawing the products.

Take for example consuming alcohol in city parks in Grand Forks. It use to be that it was okay to do so. But then one day the GF Government said "No you can't do that, well at least without paying us money first (a tax). Then I guess it is okay otherwise we will give you a large fine for what you use to be freely able to do! Call me Crazy!

I can't rely believe people here are saying "if you don't like it here move." Exactly the opposite of what this country believes in. I guess that is why so many people move out of ND and is one of the least populated states....I have heard people tell others a million times the same thing in ND, "if you don't like it move." Most do.

Sorry I didn't respond earlier I left the computer. Health Care costs is a very complicated subject/topic. Should government get involved or not, etc. How are costs best handled. Very hard to answer. And I don't think it really ads to this arguement but

Honestly, you don't have a problem paying for other people's right to choose?

No, Honestly, I don't have a problem paying taxes with everyone else to pay for someones (stupid) choice. I (along with everyone else) pay for someones choice to smoke, to eat Big Macs everyday, to go ride a bicycle without a helmet. We all pay for these choices. The choice for people to do stupid things that are totally legal.

I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Sioux-cia]

None of the things you listed infringe on personal freedoms, except in the loosest of definitions.

Really?

1. Asbestos, 'Why do I have to pay to remove it? It doesn't bother me! You don't like it move or don't work here!'

2. Lead based paint, 'For what they pay for rent, they're lucky it's painted! Just keep those kids away from the chipped parts.'

3. Flourinated water, 'It's the Commies way to try to make us stupid so they can take over the country! Leave my water alone!'

4. Mandatory immunizations, 'They just make my kids sick, I don't want them to get them.' 'It's just a way for the white man to sterilize negros.'

5. Government regulated building codes, 'What do you mean, I can't build a three story building? If they wanted a lake view, they should have bought lake shore property!'

6. Mandatory education, 'Why does my daughter need to go to school? She's just going to get married and have kids. She doesn't need an education.' 'My son's are going to inherit the family business. I'll teach them what they need to know.' 'If my 7 year old goes to school, I'm going to have to get a hired man to do his chores!'

None of the above statements is fictitious. The people who made those comments or similar ones, honestly believed their personal freedoms were being were being taken away.

[Goon]

I am not referring to compromising anyone's health, except with their informed consent. This is what I am referring to:

If I was a bar owner in Fargo, I would be furious. It's my bar. I allow smoking here. If you don't like smoking, don't work here or drink here. Pretty effin' simple, if you ask me. Not to mention, (like I already did) that if it was my bar, and other bars allowed smoking and I didn't, what a great marketing tool that has just been lost. There's your big picture.

Now the city of Fargo has ruled that you (hypothetically) don't have a right to allow smoking in a bar if you owned it.

The only recorse is that someone will challenge it in the ND supreme court and then they will have to decide if there is going to be smoking in bar or not.

[Sioux-cia]

I can't rely believe people here are saying "if you don't like it here move." Exactly the opposite of what this country believes in. I guess that is why so many people move out of ND and is one of the least populated states....I have heard people tell others a million times the same thing in ND, "if you don't like it move." Most do.

People are NOT moving out of ND because we say, 'you don't like it move'! They are moving because there are very few good paying, professional/technical jobs in the state. Our educators are among the poorest paid in the country. Embarrassing!!! But, that's another topic for another thread!!

You're right, this country is not about running you out. This is a democratic society. The people have spoken. Smoking is banned in Fargo bars. Live (long and healthy) with it.

[Cratter]

Really?

4. Mandatory immunizations, 'They just make my kids sick, I don't want them to get them.' 'It's just a way for the white man to sterilize negros.'

I could make a case for every single one of these.

In case you haven't heard, theses Mandatory immunizations have been known to lead children to develop Autism. (as a judge has admited hence financial payments) I think its sad the Government thinks they own your kids and tells you they have to shot your kid with "medicine." Let's say you don't believe it may have led to Autistic like symptoms, well it would at least be nice maybe if those who do had the choice to not vaccinate their kids with MMR because who knows, but maybe "better safe than sorry."

No choice to live a "natural" God created life. A crazy answer I know - Being born and then "nothing."

Oh yeah lets not forget the United States Court of Federal Claims created a Vaccine Injury Compensation Program.

5. Government regulated building codes, 'What do you mean, I can't build a three story building? If they wanted a lake view, they should have bought lake shore property!'

Thanks Government for that fine for my grass being too tall. Thanks for the law saying I can't have a pink house. What would we do without them. Its for the good of the community because my neighbors didn't like my choice of color or tall grass. Unlike me, they don't think it "looks good."

6. Mandatory education

Once again the Government thinks they know what is best for my children. Why is one forced to go to school til the age of 18, why not 16, 15, 14, 13? Even if they hate school, do nothing, and fail third grade for 15 years? (if that case were true I am sure the Government would take your child).

Speaking of, don't be surprised if the USA passes a law similar to the One-child policy of China one day if it is ever needed, because the ground work has already been set in America.

A law I would strongly oppose. "Oh its okay to have more than one child....if you pay a fine".

Yeah, Water that is "natural" God Created without any chemicals added. Yeah that would be bad.

Where does it end?

[Cratter]

The people have spoken. Smoking is banned in Fargo bars. Live (long and healthy) with it.

As I have said, I plan to. I am glad it passed as I look forward to not stinking after going home and I don't smoke.

I understand its a hard concept to grasp; someone standing up on principal:

One that says a person who risks their (lifetime) capital to start a small business has the right to open a place where its customers come to enjoy a legal product where no one under the age of 21 would be allow....not a bar, just a place to come to solely smoke with other smokers.

[Sioux-cia]

I understand its a hard concept to grasp; someone standing up on principal:

One that says a person who risks their (lifetime) capital to start a small business has the right to open a place where its customers come to enjoy a legal product where no one under the age of 21 would be allow....not a bar, just a place to come to solely smoke with other smokers.

I don't have a hard time grasping your standing on principal. I have my own principals.

My disagreeing doesn't mean I don't understand or see your view point. I just don't agree with it.

[Sioux-cia]

I could make a case for every single one of these.

You just proved the point I was making to Slamdance.

[Goon]

As I have said, I plan to. I am glad it passed as I look forward to not stinking after going home and I don't smoke.

I understand its a hard concept to grasp; someone standing up on principal:

One that says a person who risks their (lifetime) capital to start a small business has the right to open a place where its customers come to enjoy a legal product where no one under the age of 21 would be allow....not a bar, just a place to come to solely smoke with other smokers.

Isn't that called a cigar bar?