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The Rivalry


tony

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Quite honestly......having lived on the East Coast for some time I found that NDSU and the quality of the Football program was much better known than UND. Few people out there take much of an interest in Hockey of any sort. I went to many college games at Clemson and not a soul there could tell you what schools had a D1 hockey program (nor could they tell you who played womens' Lacrosse either). But most of them could tell you that NDSU was a dominant force in small college football.

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WYOBISONMAN,

True, true, true. There are probably only 20 states in the US that support college hockey. All 50 support football. Almost every state in the country has a Division II team in it so if those people follow the DII football they know about NDSU and probably as of late UND because of this. Living now in Kansas, the only way people here know UND is from their football and the fact that the U of Kansas played UND in Grand Forks a couple years ago. Nobody here knows that UND even has a hockey program and could care less.

It may be true that UND is widely known in the 20 hockey states but NDSU is known country-wide for football. Also, there have been several NFL teams that have had starters from NDSU on their teams to make NDSU widely known. Do the names Stacey Robinson (won a Super Bowl with the Giants in 1987), Tyrone Braxton (won two Super Bowls and went to multiple Pro Bowls with the Broncos), and Phil Hanson (played in three Super Bowls with the Bills) ring a bell? I still remember the Broncos-Packers Super Bowl when Tyrone Braxton intercepted Favre and Dick Enberg stated that Tyrone went to North Dakota State and won three national titles. Being a Bronco fan is probably why I remember but the fact is that these three players have gone to the ultimate championship game and has made NDSU known world-wide with their play.

Yes, you will say that Eddy Belfour has won the Stanley Cup. However, you can't argue what the nation's top spectator sport is; football. Football will get more nationwide notarity (even at a lower level) then the top level of hockey when both win.

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Quite honestly......having lived on the East Coast for some time I found that NDSU and the quality of the Football program was much better known than UND.

This really sets off my B.S. meter. I just don't buy that you said to multiple people at Clemson football games, "I went to NDSU," they responded "oh, good D-II football team." And that you then proceeded to say, "Ever hear of UND?" To which they responded, "Nope, I knew there was an NDSU but have never heard that there was a University of North Dakota".

How can a Bison fan claim that they're not jealous of UND's national reputation, but then also claim that they were sampling people in other regions on whether they've heard of UND? I believe that you talked about NDSU because you went there, but if you were really grilling people on whether they've heard of UND, your obsession runs deep, my friend.

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I never said that UND wasn't known but not known for hockey in Kansas. They are known for basketball and football here. Hockey is not a sport people follow here or even care about. NDSU is also known for football probably because NDSU has played Pitt St. is several close battles in the playoffs. I am sure the same can be said of all non-hockey states. Ask someone in California if they know of UND or NDSU and most will say no unless your in the Davis area but more likely people will remember a DII football champion rather then a DI hockey champion in non-hockey states which would be 60% of the country.

Face the facts, NDSU has had several Super Bowl participants (as mentioned earlier). Notarity is not going to be higher for UND just because of DI hockey. Notarity comes from football and basketball if you want notarity countrywide.

UND has the capability of notarity in 20 states while when NDSU is Division I in all sports, notarity will be in all 50. I will take the notarity in all 50.

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The quote I was responding to wasn't from your post, Kent. I (as any reasonable person would) agree 100% with your point that football and basketball are infinitely more popular than hockey outside of N.D. However, I'm still calling B.S. on Wyo's blanket statement that NDSU is better known nationally than UND. I just don't believe his UND obsession runs so deep that he actually gathered the data.

It wasn't my point, but as far as football notoriety, 90% of the people who follow D-II football enough to know that NDSU won some titles back in the 80s will have heard of UND who's been a D-II football champ much more recently.

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Nobody here knows that UND even has a hockey program and could care less.

In cities or areas that are important to UND's enrollment growth (Twin Cities and to a lesser extent Colorado's front range), UND is much better known than NDSU. The hockey program is a big factor, and IAA football is no factor, for recognition in those markets.

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Star2City,

I don't buy the notion that having a great sports team will bring in many students inside of the upper midwest. It might be the fourth thing on the list of reasons why students choose the school they choose. Student majors, campus buildings/dorms, and what there is to do in the college's city are going to be the components that students look for in choosing a university before any sports reason.

I knew of many Twin City students that went to NDSU because of the NDSU pharmacy and engineering programs are known as being one of the top programs in the country. The only places that sports helps is out of the upper midwest area for students and university research dollars. Just about everyone in ND, SD, MN, Neb, and Iowa have heard of NDSU and UND for their accademic reputations and for the sports teams as they have teams in those states that play the ND schools.

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Outside of those who live in the areas of, or went to a college that has D2 football, or even 1AA for that matter...NOBODY CARES ABOUT IT. D2 Championships mean nothing to anyone except those who go to school there. I will concede to the fact that football and (although a travesty) basketball are more watched around the US...but, you can't tell me that a school that has brought home a few D2 National Championships in one of the four major sports (Hockey, Football, Basketball, Baseball), has more national noteriety than one that has brought home 7 D1 National Championships. Nobody outside of people from the Midwest even knows that UND is in Grand Forks, but they know it's there. They all think it's in Fargo, and not because there is a school there too, it's because they've heard of Fargo and are trying to sound smart. I didn't even know where Grand Forks was until I started looking at colleges, but I knew of the University of North Dakota, and as mentioned, not North Dakota State.

Bison Kent...nobody is saying that having a good sports team will bring in students directly. But, it WILL let people know, who otherwise might not, that you are there and let them know what you have to offer. I'm also sure there are dozens of Sioux hockey players that have played in the Stanely Cup Finals. None of those names actually ring a bell either, though I don't claim to be as avid a football follower as I am hockey, but didn't the Bills lose those three Super Bowls? :ohmy: ....and WYO...East Coast is where a lot of those hockey states are that you speak of. NY, NH, VT, MA, ME, RI,etc...and I may be mistaken, but I don't think that Clemson is in a very hockey rich area.

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Uh, Fargo wasn't complaining about UND ending it's residency program. They only complained when UND stepped in and went to the U of M, which was going to replace UND's program, and told them to get off their turf.

Even Star2City, whose track record of posts pertaining to NDSU, seems to think that a carpet bombing of Fargo is the only lasting solution to the "problem" of NDSU, would have a hard time explaining why this is good public policy for North Dakota.

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Face it, most of you have never lived for an extended period out east....I have. What I am relaying to you is what I experienced out there. I could really care less what Jim et. al. chose to believe, but what I have said is the perception out there. Out here in Wyoming clearly North Dakota State is much more recognized than is UND. No one out here follows hockey. Which I actually find strange considering our proximity to Denver. When you go over to Utah and Nevada the obscurity of the UND Hockey program is again echoed. The popularity of NCAA hockey is very much confined to North Dakota, MN, Wisconisin and pockets in the North East. To think that people in South Carolina, as Jim asserted, would be more familiar with UND hockey than NDSU football is bordering on absurd. Clemson Tiger fans could care less about anything other than Fooball and Basketball.

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Below is a partial list of Land Grant Universities that are linked thru the schools of forestry, higher education, human sciences, veterinary science, and state extension services and state experiment stations under the USDA. It may not be as well know as the UND hockey machine, but a few people around the country do know about NDSU. Note: Clemson is on the list.

Auburn University(1862)

Tuskegee University(1890)

University of Alaska(1862)

University of Arizona(1862)

University of Arkansas(1862)

University of California-Davis(1862)

Colorado State University(1862)

Univerity of Connecticut(1862)

Delaware University of Delaware(1862)

Delaware State University(1890)

University of Florida(1862)

Florida A&M University(1890)

University of Georgia(1862)

University of Hawaii(1862)

University of Idaho(1862)

Univeristy of Illinois(1862)

Purdue University(1862)

Iowa State University(1862)

Kansas State University(1862)

University of Kentucky(1862)

Louisiana State University(1862)

University of Maine(1862)

University of Maryland(1862)

University of Massachusetts at Amherst (1862)

Michigan State University(1862)

University of Minnesota(1862)

Mississippi State University(1862)

University of Missouri at Columbia(1862)

Montana State University(1862)

University of Nebraska at Lincoln(1862)

University of Nevada at Reno(1862)

University of New Hamsphire(1862)

Rutgers University(1862)

New Mexico State University(1862)

Cornell University(1862)

North Carolina State(1862)

North Dakota State(1862)

Ohio State University(1862)

Oklahoma State University(1862)

Oregon State

Penn State(1862)

University of Rhode Island(1862)

Clemson University(1862)

South Dakota State University(1862)

University of Tennesse(1862)

Texas A&M(1862)

Utah State University(1862)

University of Vermont(1862)

Virginia Tech(1862)

Washington State University(1862)

West Viriginia Unveristy(1862)

Univeristy of Wisconsin(1862)

University of Wyoming(1862)

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Below is a partial list of Land Grant Universities that are linked thru the schools of forestry, higher education, human sciences, veterinary science, and state extension services and state experiment stations under the USDA. It may not be as well know as the UND hockey machine, but a few people around the country do know about NDSU. Note: Clemson is on the list.

Auburn University(1862)

Tuskegee University(1890)

University of Alaska(1862)

University of Arizona(1862)

University of Arkansas(1862)

University of California-Davis(1862)

Colorado State University(1862)

Univerity of Connecticut(1862)

Delaware University of Delaware(1862)

Delaware State University(1890)

University of Florida(1862)

Florida A&M University(1890)

University of Georgia(1862)

University of Hawaii(1862)

University of Idaho(1862)

Univeristy of Illinois(1862)

Purdue University(1862)

Iowa State University(1862)

Kansas State University(1862)

University of Kentucky(1862)

Louisiana State University(1862)

University of Maine(1862)

University of Maryland(1862)

University of Massachusetts at Amherst (1862)

Michigan State University(1862)

University of Minnesota(1862)

Mississippi State University(1862)

University of Missouri at Columbia(1862)

Montana State University(1862)

University of Nebraska at Lincoln(1862)

University of Nevada at Reno(1862)

University of New Hamsphire(1862)

Rutgers University(1862)

New Mexico State University(1862)

Cornell University(1862)

North Carolina State(1862)

North Dakota State(1862)

THE Ohio State University(1862)

Oklahoma State University(1862)

Oregon State

Penn State(1862)

University of Rhode Island(1862)

Clemson University(1862)

South Dakota State University(1862)

University of Tennesse(1862)

Texas A&M(1862)

Utah State University(1862)

University of Vermont(1862)

Virginia Tech(1862)

Washington State University(1862)

West Viriginia Unveristy(1862)

Univeristy of Wisconsin(1862)

University of Wyoming(1862)

:ohmy:

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I could really care less what Jim et. al. chose to believe, but what I have said is the perception out there. 

Repeating your claims a second time doesn't make them more convincing; why don't you actually assuage my doubts by addressing my questions as to how and why you gathered data on how well known UND is? I understand why you talked about NDSU, but why were you polling people on whether they've heard of UND? If you weren't, how can you possibly know how well-known UND is relative to NDSU? Either you are VERY obsessed with UND to the point that you actually polled a useful sample of people about how well they know UND, or you're just making it up.

Also, my only reference to hockey was agreeing with Kent that it's less popular than FB and BB. What I did say was that 90% of the people who are fans enough of D2 football to have heard of NDSU for winning some titles back in the 80s will have also heard of UND who has been much more of a recent success in D2 football.

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Jim....there is no poll. Who cares about it to that extent....not me. It is just one of those things in life that is not that important. Like I said, it is based on what I experienced. I guess this one will just have to end on you think I am full of it and I think you are....and so goes the rivalry....

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Maybe I just haven't made my question clear. You (WYO) said:

I found that NDSU...was much better known than UND.
what I have said is the perception out there.
Like I said, it is based on what I experienced.

What I've been asking and still want to know, so I and other readers can properly weight what you've "found", is what are these experiences that have let you comment on how well known UND is? Every response of yours has seemed to be misdirection away from and avoidance of that question. Have you actually been asking a substantial sample of people about whether they recognize UND's name so you could compare it's name recognition to that of NDSU, or is your comparison based entirely on your own conjecture about how well known you think UND should be?

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The thing about Sooville.com is the best you could come up with? :ohmy: Then again, you were looking at Bisonville.com - I doubt that I mention UND very often there*. If I remember rightly that post was in response to somebody who accused me of being SiouxRocks.

If this BB software had the feature that let you look at all the posts a particular user had made at once, then you'd be able to pick a pattern in my posts much more easily - plus you'd be able to find a better example of my outrageous and despicable anti-UND posts than the sooville.com one (my favorite was calling GF's legislative delegation "puling babies"). But the sooville.com joke was hardly offensive. Heck, take off the first and last sentences and all you've got left is any one of a dozen GF Herald editorials.

I'm not detecting a lot of humor in your NDSU posts - at least not "ha!ha!" humor, maybe a little dark snicker occasionally. Attacking Chapman's character is not very funny, even if done in an off-handed way as in "perhaps the Forum better get a better understanding of their bedfellow's [Chapman's] character before becoming known as the next Baa'thist information minister" and stuff like that. Maybe if I understood why you dislike Chapman so much... c'mon Star2City, get it off your chest!

* For the record: I've got 218 posts on bisonville.com and use the word "Sioux" only once (in a friendly way). Use of derivations of UND or Sioux such as "soo" - only in the sooville.com thing. I called Ed Schultz "UND's pet jackass" once (the word "jackass" has been used three times in the history of the board, all in reference to Ed). Kupchella's name appeared in one of my posts. I mentioned Roger Thomas three times, once critically, because he claimed that a bill that specifically excluded UND would have applied to UND. Mentioned Ryan Bakken twice for his thoughts on Idaho State.

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If this BB software had the feature that let you look at all the posts a particular user had made at once, then you'd be able to pick a pattern in my posts much more easily - plus you'd be able to find...

Always glad to help our Bison friends. I removed the search results post size limit so when you click on any username, then click "Find all posts by this member", you now get a much more useful list. I'm leaving the results/page limit at 25 for now for security reasons.

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If I remember rightly that post was in response to somebody who accused me of being SiouxRocks.

Yup, that was me :blush: .

SSS (Siouxrock Stupidity Syndrome) was at an all-time high. I could not comprehend how anybody could be that ignorant, and jokingly accused Tony of assuming a comic relief alter ego (Siouxrock) to stir up contoversy on the board. :D

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I'm not detecting a lot of humor in your NDSU posts - at least not "ha!ha!" humor, maybe a little dark snicker occasionally. Attacking Chapman's character is not very funny, even if done in an off-handed way as in "perhaps the Forum better get a better understanding of their bedfellow's [Chapman's] character before becoming known as the next Baa'thist information minister" and stuff like that. Maybe if I understood why you dislike Chapman so much... c'mon Star2City, get it off your chest!

First, it is kind of strange that you find my postings on NDSU or Chapman so unsettling, when they are read by a few hundred people at best on a message board. Yet you show no concern for the even the potential misrepresentation of Kupchella

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Am I critical of Chapman? Definitely. I have been around too many corporate / government organizations not to be cynical of a driver/driver type leader that spouts of big plans, demands quick results, is non-flexible, and loves the media limelight. The leader first looks brilliant (there
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Tony is looking at the glass as half full. Postive verses negative. Fox news vs CNN on the Iraqi liberation. I have not heard many positive comments about moving I-AA from star2city. If UND decides to move up in the next five years, will the tone change? Teddy Roosevelt had a great quote, it went something like this "Far better is it to dare mighty deeds, than it is to take rank with those poor souls that neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that nows not victory or defeat". Many of the negative things do happen, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel. And for those negative people out there, it's not an oncoming freight train.

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