Standing Rock/Spirit Lake

[Sioux-cia]

Long and short of all this: IMHO, programs giving special treatment for some race, class, gender, nationality, whatever are not entitled to funds in perpetuity, and they should be periodically looked at to make sure that they're accomplishing something besides providing a generous salary for otherwise unemployable people.

Don't tie it in with the name and logo. Federal money allocated for whatever should not be funded in perpetuity. I agree with assessing the effective use of the money but don't tie it in with the name and logo.

[PCM]

I don't agree that the discussion of re-prioritzing the allocation of scarce tax dollars is "threatening" someone with "harm".

So it's merely a coincidence that the subject is brought up every time someone mentions changing the Fighting Sioux nickname?

As I've said before, if the only way UND can keep the nickname is by threatening to take away programs intended to help American Indians, then we don't deserve to have it because it means we're using intimidation to get our way. Maybe that works for some people, but it doesn't work for me.

[Oxbow6]

So it's merely a coincidence that the subject is brought up every time someone mentions changing the Fighting Sioux nickname?

As I've said before, if the only way UND can keep the nickname is by threatening to take away programs intended to help American Indians, then we don't deserve to have it because it means we're using intimidation to get our way. Maybe that works for some people, but it doesn't work for me.

I don't think I have read that every poster, including myself, feels that taking away programs in the event that the name/logo is changed is the answer. Some might feel that way? But again that is their opinion. I agree that Federal funds are allocated as such and are marked as they are. But why not re-prioritize what is coming to the NA school from the tax paying public and private contributions, not specifically marked for the NA college. Why keep supporting, to the highest level, the programs that are there for NAs? Jeanotte is a prime example. He is a leader of the NA college, but when was the last time you heard him say anything positive about UND or it's leadership?? Now some might find these comments in a racist tone. Not the case. Racist--no but anti-entitlement without accountability--yes. Whether you are white, green, yellow or red should not determine the "gift" you receive from the college you attend. Why are tensions high on campus?? Because to the normal 18-19 year old white student working a job or 2 to pay for an education, it is difficult to watch those who are different than them getting a "gift" and at the same time claiming to be in an "abusive and hostile" enviroment. If the logo/name is retired--fine. Federal dollars marked to the NA college--fine. But you want to help solve some of the forseeable tensions on campus, make those who want to attend UND earn their admission and education. Not to take "things" way but to be more consistent in how "things" are divided.

[CDog]

I can see it now. About 10 years from now, UND will have changed the name and the tribes will be bitching that know one knows their history anymore.

Truer words have not been spoken. You can take this to the bank. But I give it less than 5 years.

[Chewey]

Truer words have not been spoken. You can take this to the bank. But I give it less than 5 years.

Yes. Just wait for the hue and cry that UND is not "inclusive" enough. Just wait for the claims that the tribes are being ignored because of the nickname dispute and that the nickname hostily still lives on campus 10 years, 20 years, etc. after. I too think that saving face may have been the route taken all along. Whomever posted that was/is pretty insightful.

[Sioux-cia]

....the forseeable tensions on campus,

Why? Why does there have to be 'forseeable tensions on campus'? Why blame the NA students for what the tribal leaders are doing? How many of those students are Sioux? Why can't those students be seen as just students many who don't give a rats a$$ about the name and logo? Why can't they just be students who are attending UND for an education? Why do they have to be labeled at all? Are the 'tensions' going to be directed at all NA students? Is TJ Oshie going to be ostracised because he's NA? Are there going to be 'tensions' directed at him?

I don't understand why there's the mentality that the entire NA student body will be or should be blamed for the loss of our Fighting Sioux name and logo. I don't understand why the entire NA population is being lumped together as welfare cheating, federal government leeching, second class citizens. I've read here that many know a guy who did this or that on an Indian reservation and the NA community was too uncaring to change for the better. Well you know what, I've done a little Google search and found that the majority of serial killers are white males and the majority of pediophiles are white males. According to the mentality of some, this means that all white males are serial killers and pediophiles.

Stupid is as stupid does.

[Hawkster]

I've been trying not to comment to much on this since the settlement to avoid the appearance of gloating. I'l even overlook the flaming I've taken for pushing for a new name.

The one comment I'm going to make is lets get an acceptable new name and move on. What ever we pick, let's embrace it and completely stop using the "Sioux" name. As others have said, now is the best time to switch. New division, new conferences, new rivals. Bury the past and welcome the future.

[PCM]

Federal dollars marked to the NA college--fine.

What is this "NA college"? I've worked for UND for more than 15 years and never heard of it until now.

[Chewey]

Why? Why does there have to be 'forseeable tensions on campus'? Why blame the NA students for what the tribal leaders are doing? How many of those students are Sioux? Why can't those students be seen as just students many who don't give a rats a$$ about the name and logo? Why can't they just be students who are attending UND for an education? Why do they have to be labeled at all? Are the 'tensions' going to be directed at all NA students? Is TJ Oshie going to be ostracised because he's NA? Are there going to be 'tensions' directed at him?

I don't understand why there's the mentality that the entire NA student body will be or should be blamed for the loss of our Fighting Sioux name and logo. I don't understand why the entire NA population is being lumped together as welfare cheating, federal government leeching, second class citizens. I've read here that many know a guy who did this or that on an Indian reservation and the NA community was too uncaring to change for the better. Well you know what, I've done a little Google search and found that the majority of serial killers are white males and the majority of pediophiles are white males. According to the mentality of some, this means that all white males are serial killers and pediophiles.

Stupid is as stupid does.

I agree with what you are saying. I agree that lumping all NA's with Ron His Horse is Thunder (that is a cool name -- I have to give him that) is not right and that NA students are just students like anyone else. I think that the many advantages that would accompany an agreement regarding the Sioux name and inure to the benefit of all NAs will be lost, even as to the non-PC/"I don't care" NAs. This will be a true loss. I just hope the NAs lay the blame right at Ron and cohorts for not receiving all of the good things that could have come about.

[PCM]

Not to take "things" way but to be more consistent in how "things" are divided.

Spin it any way you desire, but to say that this is something that must suddenly be done at a time when the nickname is in jeopardy smacks of petty vindictiveness, vengeful behavior and an effort to intimidate the tribes into giving UND something it wants. And that's my opinion.

[Oxbow6]

Why? Why does there have to be 'forseeable tensions on campus'? Why blame the NA students for what the tribal leaders are doing? How many of those students are Sioux? Why can't those students be seen as just students many who don't give a rats a$$ about the name and logo? Why can't they just be students who are attending UND for an education? Why do they have to be labeled at all? Are the 'tensions' going to be directed at all NA students? Is TJ Oshie going to be ostracised because he's NA? Are there going to be 'tensions' directed at him?

I don't understand why there's the mentality that the entire NA student body will be or should be blamed for the loss of our Fighting Sioux name and logo. I don't understand why the entire NA population is being lumped together as welfare cheating, federal government leeching, second class citizens. I've read here that many know a guy who did this or that on an Indian reservation and the NA community was too uncaring to change for the better. Well you know what, I've done a little Google search and found that the majority of serial killers are white males and the majority of pediophiles are white males. According to the mentality of some, this means that all white males are serial killers and pediophiles.

Stupid is as stupid does.

Why?? Because there is already tensions and from what you hear and read most to the tesion is being expressed by the NA students...it gets back to the "hostile and abusive" manta. Now is some of that probably valid--absolutely and is it being perpetrated by mostly white--more than likely and does that make it right--no. But who is blaming the entire NA students at UND?? Who is stating that all NAs are 2nd class citizens?? You seem to paint with a broad brush when convenient for your argument. The bottom line, whether you like it or not, is that there will be some backlash at NAs either on campus or in general society if the name/logo goes. And just in conversation with people, they are tired of the Jeanotte/His Horse Is Thunder rhetoric and seeing the protests from NA students to whom their tax dollars are going to get an education. Again do I think that is right--absolutely not but you continually are making the argument that, in essence, ALL whites are out to get ALL NAs and that is simply not that case. Those broad statements you made above lead to the "tensions" we are discussing because they are so wide-sweeping and accusational. There are bad apples in every bunch and I'm SURE there are more hard working, good citizen NAs than not, just as there are more non-serial killer whites than serial killer whites!! This issue is what it is--SOME NAs who see that they are being disrespected by the name/log and UND itself and there are some whites who strongly disagree. It is really, unless you want to make it, is not much more complicated than that. But because there are 2 different races involved we are in the situation that we ALL are in.

[Oxbow6]

What is this "NA college"? I've worked for UND for more than 15 years and never heard of it until now.

What I was getting at was there is a NA school within the UND campus, i.e Engineering school at UND. Thanks for pointing that out to me and correcting my mistake. I know you are smarter than that not to know what I meant but couldn't resist the little jab.

[PCM]

What I was getting at was there is a NA school within the UND campus, i.e Engineering school at UND. Thanks for pointing that out to me and correcting my mistake. I know you are smarter than that not to know what I meant but couldn't resist the little jab.

I still don't know what you mean.

[Sioux-cia]

But because there are 2 different races involved we are in the situation that we ALL are in.

Sad isn't it.

[ScottM]

Why do you want me to list what I find racist in this thread? You don't and won't find them to be.

Because you're the person trotting out the racism card. Do you read what you post? Do you lack the strength of your convictions? Or do you find it's easier to throw around the racism label because you lack the intellect to develop your own position(s) and defend it/them accordingly? It's probably more convenient to for you to trot out your racism "argument" like a tired old coat if somebody suggests that NA programs should be reduced, eliminated, etc., than to actually discuss/defend the relative merits, benefits etc. of the programs themselves to UND, the tribes and society at large. Rather than refuting suggestions that the name/logo or any tribal support for them should not be tied to UND's NA programs, you drop epithets and then hide behind your purported "experiences" on some reservation(s). Well bully for you, give yourself a lollipop.

[dagies]

Truer words have not been spoken. You can take this to the bank. But I give it less than 5 years.

I hardly believe UND's use of the Fighting Sioux nickname is keeping alive the history of the Sioux nation.

Personally, I think one of the problems we've had in winning this battle is the idea that we are somehow tied, or honoring, the current Sioux culture. We picked a nickname that identifies with the Sioux warrior of 150 years ago.

People don't know who the Sioux people are, or what their history is because of UND's sports teams. That's way too arrogant.

[Diggler]

People don't know who the Sioux people are, or what their history is because of UND's sports teams. That's way too arrogant.

I would agree. People know who the Sioux are because Custer was a dumbarse.

[Oxbow6]

Sad isn't it.

Agree.

[Oxbow6]

I still don't know what you mean.

I'll retract that then. Let me know what term (not college, not school, program??) they use from your 15 years on campus so that I won't make the same mistake again.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

So it's merely a coincidence that the subject is brought up every time someone mentions changing the Fighting Sioux nickname?

You've missed the point entirely. To call the evaluation of the effectiveness of these programs "harm" is inaccurate. Nor is it a "threat" to make sure all programs are cost effective. People who see their little fiefdoms (be they in the engineering, native american or liberal arts and sciences colleges) as something they are entitled to no matter what else happens will typically squeal whenever budget cuts are mentioned. They'll say they're being "harmed". Sorry, someone has to bear the burden, and there are no sacred cows.

One other point: if these programs for Native Americans are so necessary and beneficial, any cut at the University of North Dakota should be made up for at other schools: say, your sister schools or South Dakota or Oklahoma or Michigan: or even via federal funding.

Furthermore, I just can't entirely separate the idea that the tribes would be entitled to a cut of royalties from a continuing "Sioux" logo and nickname from these programs. What would the tribes be doing with the royalty income? If its so necessary for their survival, why not just pay it out of the goodness of the North Dakota people's hearts despite losing the nickname?

Don't tie it in with the name and logo. Federal money allocated for whatever should not be funded in perpetuity. I agree with assessing the effective use of the money but don't tie it in with the name and logo.

Well, just because this evaluation wasn't done in 2006 or 2005 is no reason why it shouldn't be done in 2007 and beyond.

Don't tie it in with the name and logo: but don't use the loss of the name and logo and the hyperbole of "threats" and "harm" as an excuse NOT to do it either.

[Oxbow6]

You've missed the point entirely. To call the evaluation of the effectiveness of these programs "harm" is inaccurate. Nor is it a "threat" to make sure all programs are cost effective. People who see their little fiefdoms (be they in the engineering, native american or liberal arts and sciences colleges) as something they are entitled to no matter what else happens will typically squeal whenever budget cuts are mentioned. They'll say they're being "harmed". Sorry, someone has to bear the burden, and there are no sacred cows.

One other point: if these programs for Native Americans are so necessary and beneficial, any cut at the University of North Dakota should be made up for at other schools: say, your sister schools or South Dakota or Oklahoma or Michigan: or even via federal funding.

Furthermore, I just can't entirely separate the idea that the tribes would be entitled to a cut of royalties from a continuing "Sioux" logo and nickname from these programs. What would the tribes be doing with the royalty income? If its so necessary for their survival, why not just pay it out of the goodness of the North Dakota people's hearts despite losing the nickname?

Good points and I'm not the only who has heard/used the term "colleges" within a unversity system.

[Sioux-cia]

]

Because you're the person trotting out the racism card. Do you read what you post?

"Let's quit deluding ourselves that these people will be reasonable at any time. F**k 'em "

"rational thinking is not really part of the native mindset"

"..to check out the slots at the casino"

"diversity is only important to them when it is to their disadvantage."

"they could NOT find 2 QUALIFIED Indians student to give the scholarships to as their math skills were not even close to the other students applying for a slot in the engineering program."

"the tribes will be bitching that know one knows their history anymore." "Who? "

"People in this state know what their "history" has been over the past few decades"

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

We picked a nickname that identifies with the Sioux warrior of 150 years ago.

People don't know who the Sioux people are, or what their history is because of UND's sports teams. That's way too arrogant.

Well, almost every "personal" nickname comes from history. The Vikings, what, about 1000 years ago? Vandals-before even that? And the Trojans/Spartans?? Chief Osceola is about that 150 years ago era. And virtually all of them adopt war/battle symbols and imagery.

Do people learn about Sioux (or any other culture's) history from a sports nickname?? I doubt it. Perhaps that does happen in one out of 100 million cases. But OTOH, dropping the nickname isn't going to teach anything about Sioux culture. And AFAIK, the Seminoles have negotiated for some educational opportunities in return for their signoff at FSU. If the Sioux tribes thought that the nickname was creating an incorrect impression, they might have been able to use the negotiations to strike a bargain regarding public information on campus.

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

Good points and I'm not the only who has heard/used the term "colleges" within a unversity system.

Yes, and whether its more correct to say that the University of North Dakota has a Native American Studies program within one of their colleges rather than saying they have a college dedicated to Native American studies, my point is still valid.

Any time an entrenched little fiefdom (of a University or any large organization) hears that budget cuts are coming, the squealing about how unfair the cuts are starts. And the more inflamatory the language, the more I think that the cuts may be valid.

[Sioux-cia]

... don't use the loss of the name and logo and the hyperbole of "threats" and "harm" as an excuse NOT to do it either.

My ex is head of a grants and contracts department at a major University. His department 'polices' every single penny that comes into the University. To think that there hasn't been ongoing evaluation of the federal monies is naive. I don't know how effective the NA programs are at UND. I do know that 20% of NA MDs in this country are UND graduates. I do know that a large number of NA RNs in ND, SD, Montana and Minnesota are graduates of UND. Not working in the field of engineering, education etc. I don't know how many NA graduates there are from those programs. I do know that it's not just NAs that can't make it in college.