Another Open Meetings Law Violated

[The Sicatoka]

From: http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm...mp;section=news

An open meetings law problem in Fargo, between the city and NDSU ....

Three Fargo City Commission members acknowledged Friday that they violated North Dakota

[Matt]

From: [url="http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=159127

[southpaw]

[The Sicatoka]

Serious question: Do you think someone in the"mainstream Fargo media" knew the story and sat on it?

In a word: Yes.

Given the crew that was there (3 commissioners, Fargo planning folks, in the NDSU president's office) someone had to notice and throw a tip to some news organization. If nothing else, don't the local news organizations follow the calendars and schedules of local officials? That many power players in one place and no one in the media noticed. Either the media are truly ignorant, or sat on it. Which is it?

But that doesn't disturb me as much as three city commissioners (plus the chair of the ND State Board of Higher Ed, John Q. Paulson, yes, the same guy, and a university president, who had both just come through an open meetings investigation by the ND Attorney General) all "sitting tight" on the information for four months (and assumably hoping to get away with it).

No, wait, they did: It's past the 90 days inquiry point for the ND AG.

So much for open government.

[star2city]

Given the crew that was there (3 commissioners, Fargo planning folks, in the NDSU president's office) someone had to notice and throw a tip to some news organization. If nothing else, don't the local news organizations follow the calendars and schedules of local officials? That many power players in one place and no one in the media noticed. Either the media are truly ignorant, or sat on it. Which is it?

But that doesn't disturb me as much as three city commissioners (plus the chair of the ND State Board of Higher Ed, John Q. Paulson, yes, the same guy, and a university president, who had both just come through an open meetings investigation by the ND Attorney General) all "sitting tight" on the information for four months (and assumably hoping to get away with it).

No, wait, they did: It's past the 90 days inquiry point for the ND AG.

So much for open government.

Our esteemed Bison guests, who are otherwise so freely prognosticate about UND leadership, seem strangely silent here.

[farce poobah]

The scary part is these people are choosing which laws to obey, and which they don't.

[Hammersmith]

Our esteemed Bison guests, who are otherwise so freely prognosticate about UND leadership, seem strangely silent here.

Since I resemble that remark...

What do you expect us to say? They were idiots. Well meaning idiots, but idiots nonetheless. IMO, and you're welcome to disagree of course, they broke the letter but not the spirit of the open meeting laws. I would suggest that those laws are to prevent decisions from being made out of public view. In this case, it appears that no decisions were made, nor were any even considered. Beyond that, there wasn't even any discussion between the commissioners. NDSU officials said their peace, a few questions were asked, and everyone went their seperate ways. Still, everyone agrees that one of the commissioners should have walked away prior to the meeting. The unfortunate timing and circumstances involved provide a reason, but not an excuse. It really was bad luck that Coates arrived only moments before Chapman ushered them in. I do believe one of them would have left if they would have had a couple of minutes to discuss it. Again, it's a reason, not an excuse.

They also should have come clean immediately after the meeting rather than waiting until Williams decided to score a few points against the FD arena proposal. By laying low, they damaged their credibility. OTOH, I've lost far more respect for Williams than for Coates, Wimmer or Walaker. Williams was told of the meeting within days, but he sat on it until the 90-day reporting window had passed. Then he leaked it to the High Plains Reader. It appears that he wanted to embarass the others and the arena proposal without being involved in an AG investigation. Too self serving for my tastes.

Whether you believe the version of events as layed out by Coates and co. probably depends on your views towards Fargo, NDSU, and "Imperial" Cass. If you dislike them, you'll probably see some form of conspiracy or other lying involved. If you support one or more of those three, like myself, you'll regard it as an unintended, if foolish, mistake. You make the call.

Some light reading:

The HPR article that started it all(8 March): Behind Closed Doors

The Forum's initial article(10 March): Fargo commissioners met illegally

Linda Coates' version of events(10 March): The Meeting

Forum Editorial(14 March): Violation damaged credibility

[The Sicatoka]

OTOH, I've lost far more respect for Williams than for Coates, Wimmer or Walaker. Williams was told of the meeting within days, but he sat on it until the 90-day reporting window had passed. Then he leaked it to the High Plains Reader.

Let me translate that: Fargo has not three but four city commissioners that conspired (3 together, 1 alone) for more than 90 days to keep the AG in the dark about an open meetings violation. (They put you in jail based on the letter, not the spirit of the law. ) There's adding to an already great reputation. There's building the public trust.

And the head of the ND State Board of Higher Education (Paulson) and NDSU president (Chapman) each just months removed from their own little open meetings exam by the AG didn't say a peep about it either? They have to know the law that a quarum is a meeting and they had to know they had 3/5 (a quarum) of the Fargo city commission, yet, nothing.

This situation is very disappointing from both a Fargo city government and state officials point of view.

[GeauxSioux]

Since I resemble that remark...

What do you expect us to say? They were idiots. Well meaning idiots, but idiots nonetheless. IMO, and you're welcome to disagree of course, they broke the letter but not the spirit of the open meeting laws. I would suggest that those laws are to prevent decisions from being made out of public view. In this case, it appears that no decisions were made, nor were any even considered. Beyond that, there wasn't even any discussion between the commissioners. NDSU officials said their peace, a few questions were asked, and everyone went their seperate ways. Still, everyone agrees that one of the commissioners should have walked away prior to the meeting. The unfortunate timing and circumstances involved provide a reason, but not an excuse. It really was bad luck that Coates arrived only moments before Chapman ushered them in. I do believe one of them would have left if they would have had a couple of minutes to discuss it. Again, it's a reason, not an excuse.

They also should have come clean immediately after the meeting rather than waiting until Williams decided to score a few points against the FD arena proposal. By laying low, they damaged their credibility. OTOH, I've lost far more respect for Williams than for Coates, Wimmer or Walaker. Williams was told of the meeting within days, but he sat on it until the 90-day reporting window had passed. Then he leaked it to the High Plains Reader. It appears that he wanted to embarass the others and the arena proposal without being involved in an AG investigation. Too self serving for my tastes.

Whether you believe the version of events as layed out by Coates and co. probably depends on your views towards Fargo, NDSU, and "Imperial" Cass. If you dislike them, you'll probably see some form of conspiracy or other lying involved. If you support one or more of those three, like myself, you'll regard it as an unintended, if foolish, mistake. You make the call.

Some light reading:

The HPR article that started it all(8 March): Behind Closed Doors

The Forum's initial article(10 March): Fargo commissioners met illegally

Linda Coates' version of events(10 March): The Meeting

Forum Editorial(14 March): Violation damaged credibility

He was told of the meeting, but was he told of the quorum? If not, he would have no reason to think anything inappropriate had happened.

In the days following the meeting, I spoke with both Mike Williams and Tim Mahoney, and told them of our meeting (I can't remember if I mentioned the unintended quorum or not) and told them that they might want to meet with President Chapman themselves to hear what he had to say on the matter. As I recall, Mike said something like, "That's ok, I don't need to meet with him," and Tim said that he would try to meet with him at some point.

[Matt]

He was told of the meeting, but was he told of the quorum? If not, he would have no reason to think anything inappropriate had happened.

If Williams knew who attended the meeting, he knew of the quorum. For him to know of the meeting, but not of the quorum, would mean that he really didn't know who was at the meeting in the first place. How could he then leak the info to the press if he didn't know the parties involved? The story is significant to the public because it is an apparent open meeting violation, not simply because a meeting to place at all. There have been plenty of meetings with NDSU officials. However, the mere fact that there was a meeting without Mike Williams, may be significant to him. I suspect the other principals in this deal (including the attending commissioners by not telling Williams) didn't want any more of his flies for their ointment. Maybe that routine is rubbing too many people raw.

[GeauxSioux]

If Williams knew who attended the meeting, he knew of the quorum. For him to know of the meeting, but not of the quorum, would mean that he really didn't know who was at the meeting in the first place. How could he then leak the info to the press if he didn't know the parties involved? The story is significant to the public because it is an apparent open meeting violation, not simply because a meeting to place at all. There have been plenty of meetings with NDSU officials. However, the mere fact that there was a meeting without Mike Williams, may be significant to him. I suspect the other principals in this deal (including the attending commissioners by not telling Williams) didn't want any more of his flies for their ointment. Maybe that routine is rubbing too many people raw.

If Williams really wanted to make a stink he would have blown the whistle prior to the 90 days expiring on the open meeting law. The fact that he didn't do it until after the 90 days leads me to believe that he didn't know who all was at the meeting until after the 90 days.

[siouxforeverbaby]

ok, correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't quorum for them, three people? Because then, one of them shouldn't have left, two of them should have because quorum is still a meeting. Regardless of whether or not anything was decided or voted on, it was still a meeting. Sry, I have had that on my mind since I started reading this and I finally had to say it. Whether or not they are sorry for it, it should not have happened especially with people who know the open meeting laws!

[The Sicatoka]

"Quarum" is defined as a minimum number to do business. In this case a quarum is more than half of the members of a board. Fargo city commission is five persons; three makes a quarum.

Coates, Wimmer, or Mr. Mayor should have left the room. It would have solved the open meeting problem.

[The Sicatoka]

I suspect the other principals in this deal (including the attending commissioners by not telling Williams) didn't want any more of his flies for their ointment. Maybe that routine is rubbing too many people raw.

So a city commissioner having ideas that maybe Fargo needs an arts center, or sewer and water improvements, or to improve low-income housing in the city, instead of another arena/basketball venue, is "flies" in someone's "ointment"? Please define "someone" and their desired "ointment".

Williams is an elected commissioner. He is duly sworn to define the Fargo "ointment" to the best of his views and abilities. However, given the attendees of that meeting, and where it was held (NDSU president's office), it gives the distinct impression that someone else, possibly an unelected set of officials, are defining and prescribing the "ointment" (that would best suit their purposes) for Fargo.

Hold that meeting in the sunshine and there's not much anyone, even Williams, can say.

Do it this way and it's wide open to skepticism and cynicism.

[PCM]

Do it this way and it's wide open to skepticism and cynicism.

I'd say it's more wide closed.

[Matt]

So a city commissioner having ideas that maybe Fargo needs an arts center, or sewer and water improvements, or to improve low-income housing in the city, instead of another arena/basketball venue, is "flies" in someone's "ointment"? Please define "someone" and their desired "ointment".

Williams is an elected commissioner. He is duly sworn to define the Fargo "ointment" to the best of his views and abilities. However, given the attendees of that meeting, and where it was held (NDSU president's office), it gives the distinct impression that someone else, possibly an unelected set of officials, are defining and prescribing the "ointment" (that would best suit their purposes) for Fargo.

Hold that meeting in the sunshine and there's not much anyone, even Williams, can say.

Do it this way and it's wide open to skepticism and cynicism.

Your lobbying efforts are better directed at the three commissioners who left your boy out in the cold. Judging by your reaction, I'd say my suspicions about the motives of the commissioners may be on the mark. I suspect Williams is viewed as a gadfly that is difficult to get along with. Coates, Wimmer, and Walaker know it will take team work to make their pet projects a reality. Walaker and Wimmer need help from Coates on the arena project. Walaker and Wimmer can help tremendously with fundraising to make the library project what Coates wants it to be. How does Williams fit? Or, my suspicians could be totally wrong. Maybe it's something as simple as Walaker called Williams to go to the meeting and he wasn't home. Either way, when someone comes up with an idea in this town, be it in the sunshine or dark, you can count on Williams having something to say.

[The Sicatoka]

Your lobbying efforts are better directed at the three commissioners who left your boy out in the cold.

He's not my boy; he's Fargo's. The people there elected him.

But, if I were to "lobby" people about possibly illegal quarums (that should have been noticed as public meetings), those people would be in Bismarck (think: Governor or Attorney General), not Fargo. Shouldn't the folks in Bismarck be asking why two folks investigated in summer of 2006 for possible open meetings violations, one of them being the ND State Board of Higher Education president, find themselves in the mix of possibly another just months later?

Coates, Wimmer, and Walaker know it will take team work ...

and shady, questionably legal meetings?

... to make their pet projects a reality.

Either way, when someone comes up with an idea in this town, be it in the sunshine or dark, you can count on Williams having something to say.

If it involves Fargo tax dollars, he should. He is on the city commission.

[Matt]

He's not my boy; he's Fargo's. The people there elected him.

But, if I were to "lobby" people about possibly illegal quarums (that should have been noticed as public meetings), those people would be in Bismarck (think: Governor or Attorney General), not Fargo. Shouldn't the folks in Bismarck be asking why two folks investigated in summer of 2006 for possible open meetings violations, one of them being the ND State Board of Higher Education president, find themselves in the mix of possibly another just months later?

and shady, questionably legal meetings?

If it involves Fargo tax dollars, he should. He is on the city commission.

The people there elected him? Such detachment from someone who compiles Williams' resume with the skill of a campaign manager. I understand your beef with the open meeting violation, I share it. But as far as Williams goes...I don't have a dog in this fight. Are you sure you don't?

[The Sicatoka]

My beef is with people who appear to look down their noses at open meetings laws as well.

As far as Williams, his view on issues I learned by listening to the regional radio news (KFGO) when I'm driving and reading the newspapers. Would you like to know Coates' pet projects? Wimmer's? The mayor's? Go back to the post that started this. I knew the HPR (Strand's) agenda too. I try to stay informed about regional governments and what they are doing because I'm a North Dakotan and taxpayer first*. Then a Sioux fan. I don't know Williams and never have met him. I can't even say I've voted for him.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but yet I do: Sunshine, and ND's open meeting law.

* Re-read first sentence here.

[Matt]

My beef is with people who appear to look down their noses at open meetings laws as well.

As far as Williams, his view on issues I learned by listening to the regional radio news (KFGO) when I'm driving and reading the newspapers. Would you like to know Coates' pet projects? Wimmer's? The mayor's? Go back to the post that started this. I knew the HPR (Strand's) agenda too. I try to stay informed about regional governments and what they are doing because I'm a North Dakotan and taxpayer first*. Then a Sioux fan. I don't know Williams and never have met him. I can't even say I've voted for him.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but yet I do: Sunshine, and ND's open meeting law.

* Re-read first sentence here.

So a city commissioner having ideas that maybe Fargo needs an arts center, or sewer and water improvements, or to improve low-income housing in the city, instead of another arena/basketball venue, is "flies" in someone's "ointment"?

C'mon now. In the course of discussing an open meeting violation, you felt the need to defend the positions of a city commissioner from a town you don't live in? What do his views on those issues have to do with the open meeting violation anyway? He and Coates are allies on those initiatives. She'd have no reason to exclude him based on that (of course I am speculating that he was purposefully excluded to begin with). Further, I know the positions of those people you mentioned, but their positions on those issues have had a direct effect on me over the years. Even so, I'd be hard pressed to interview ten people on the street that could list those issues from a commissioner like Williams which hasn't even been in office a full term, as you did so easily from simply hearing it on the radio or reading the paper from time to time.

In order to keep up with you, I should be boning up the the sewer and water improvement thoughts of the GF or Bismarck city council for some interesting reading.

[The Sicatoka]

C'mon now. In the course of discussing an open meeting violation, you felt the need to defend the positions of a city commissioner from a town you don't live in?

I rattled those off to point out that Wimmer and the mayor have differing agendas from Williams (and the HPR, see first post disclaimer).

In order to keep up with you, I should be boning up the the sewer and water improvement thoughts of the GF or Bismarck city council for some interesting reading.

You should. GF spends a lot of time worrying about the future of GFAFB and just recently figured out they need to look at water (30 to 50 years out) like Fargo just started to under the former mayor. And you learn many cool pieces of information reading Alerus commission minutes. Bismarck city politics right now is not the main spotlight right now (as it seems to turn when everyone focuses on the Capital). The widening of Washington on the north side (from Main to Divide) is as contentious as ever and will come up again very soon as more folks build north. Some say that road needs to be widened all the way from Main north to Highway 1804. Bismarck versus townships/county land annexation conversations out there are warm, but not as warm as Fargo had with Horace and West Fargo. (Presets on my AM radio are KFYR 550, KFGO 790, and KNOX 1310, but you could probably guess that now.)

But none of that changes that John Q. Paulson and Dr. Joe Chapman were involved in another situation that smells of open meeting violation.

[Matt]

I rattled those off to point out that Wimmer and the mayor have differing agendas from Williams (and the HPR, see first post disclaimer).

You should. GF spends a lot of time worrying about the future of GFAFB and just recently figured out they need to look at water (30 to 50 years out) like Fargo just started to under the former mayor. And you learn many cool pieces of information reading Alerus commission minutesBismarck city politics right now is not the main spotlight right now (as it seems to turn when everyone focuses on the Capital). The widening of Washington on the north side (from Main to Divide) is as contentious as ever and will come up again very soon as more folks build north. Some say that road needs to be widened all the way from Main north to Highway 1804. Bismarck versus townships/county land annexation conversations out there are warm, but not as warm as Fargo had with Horace and West Fargo. (Presets on my AM radio are KFYR 550, KFGO 790, and KNOX 1310, but you could probably guess that now.)

But none of that changes that John Q. Paulson and Dr. Joe Chapman were involved in another situation that smells of open meeting violation.

And you learn many cool pieces of information reading Alerus commission minutes.

How much have we dated ourselves when describing "Alerus commission minutes" as "cool" seems reasonable?

I feel like kicking my own a$$.

[The Sicatoka]

How much have we dated ourselves when describing "Alerus commission minutes" as "cool" seems reasonable?

I feel like kicking my own a$$.

I soothe it by repeating "with age comes wisdom" over and over.

[The Sicatoka]

A plague has beset upon Fargo, and it's spread to the Fargo School Board.

Legal notice of meeting not offered

And folks on this board aren't the only who've noticed.

[url=http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=165192&section=Opinion]Will state

[Sioux-cia]

A plague has beset upon Fargo, and it's spread to the Fargo School Board.

Legal notice of meeting not offered

And folks on this board aren't the only who've noticed.

[url=http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=165192&section=Opinion]Will state