Wisconsin Decision

[Dak]

Not at all. I simply don't understand why someone would brag about giving money to a cause that he/she is obviously read to abandon.

I guess you don't get it, i just don't want UND to miss out on anything or start costing us games.

[PCM]

I guess you don't get it, i just don't want UND to miss out on anything or start costing us games.

I get that your head is full of wildly exaggerated fears.

[jimdahl]

I daresay most of us agree with you, Dak, that there is some threshold of damage to UND athletics at which we would support changing the name. I further think the likelihood of that increased with the reclassification to D-I. The pushback you're getting is people pointing out that most of that damage is currently still potential / theoretical.

See, for example, previous posts of mine such as 210508 and 210426. Browsing that thread, you see a lot of us have similar concerns about possible future harm; however, since the actual likelihood and severity of that harm is unknown, taking drastic steps to mitigate it may be premature. That is, perhaps, why Sicatoka compared those of us raising the concerns to Neville Chamberlain

[Chewey]

Here is some questions for you all.

How many more D1 team will not play UND?

Is the lists going to grow so much that it kills a D1 move?

How hard is it going to be to find a conference with our nickname?

At what point is it smart to keep our name?

What if the NCAA gets the votes and passes the measure?

How much more bad press can UND take?

At what point do you even want to be called the Fighting Sioux?

The reason i ask is that my family is diehard Fighting Sioux fans. My parents have worked at the U for over 25 years. At the start of the name ban the whole family wanted to fight till the death over the name. As time has gone by most are sick if the name fight, "there is no honor left in the name" one family member said. Flickertails sounds better every day. At least when the Sioux win there 8th National title there will not be a side note of how racist the people in North Dakota are......

Please don't slam me, these are real questions long time sioux fans ask. I would love to keep the name, but there is a limit people can take.

This is not intended to be a slam but, after reading your post, the French and Maginot Line came to mind for me. My point is that UND is in a fight and you don't back down just because some predictable obstacles come up. UND needs to continue that fight and stuff like antics from MN, WI and UI (pink locker room for visiting FB team and all) should only firm up UND's resolve. Winston Churchill and FDR and Abraham Lincoln would be lost in today's world. Personally, I think the press for UND is a good thing because it shows just how stupid and ridiculous the NCAA and PC elites are to the whole country. The more exposure this issue gets, the more the baseless and scurrilous and racist accusations against UND are seen for what they are -- trite, hackeneyed PC trip trap. The more exposure UND gets on this issue, the more people see how the PC radicals and the NCAA are the racists and the more people see just how such interests persecute and victimize UND and the good people who founded it and support it. The more press that is obtained, the more people see just how out of control the NC00 has become and they see how it needs to be reigned in severely. Personally, I think UND should play, as some have suggested, the Big-12 schools or the WAC or the Mountain West. There's not that much difference mile-wise between Grand Forks and the Montana schools vs. Grand Forks and Wisconsin or Iowa. The only reason I'd like to go to the Peoples Republic of Madison is to laugh at the inhabitants.

[Dak]

I get that your head is full of wildly exaggerated fears.

I guess i do need help. Minnesota and Wis. are going to play us in other sports. It's my wildly exaggerated fears that lead me to believe Minn and Wis. are not playing us......

[Dak]

I daresay most of us agree with you, Dak, that there is some threshold of damage to UND athletics at which we would support changing the name. I further think the likelihood of that increased with the reclassification to D-I. The pushback you're getting is people pointing out that most of that damage is currently still potential / theoretical.

Its something we need to start thinking about and working to resolve before it gets out of hand. The banning of games against us is growing. UND needs more positves to come out, like a game against Montana, Kansas ect.

I just asked the questions that alot of other people i have talked to fear. If the rational people were in charge at the NCAA and other schools UND would not have this problem.

[PCM]

I guess i do need help. Minnesota and Wis. are going to play us in other sports. It's my wildly exaggerated fears that lead me to believe Minn and Wis. are not playing us......

Good grief. Obviously, Wisconsin won't play us in anything besides hockey. Is this big news to you? Wisconsin had this policy in effect long before the NCAA chose to muddy the issue. Minnesota has had its policy for years, but didn't enforce it.

Perhaps this will better explain my position to you.

[Dak]

Good grief. Obviously, Wisconsin won't play us in anything besides hockey. Is this big news to you? Wisconsin had this policy in effect long before the NCAA chose to muddy the issue. Minnesota has had its policy for years, but didn't enforce it.

I agree with what you say also, but they are enforcing it now. It is a problem.

I never once said to change the name today. I just asked to what point do we want to change the name. I would have never given to the nc$$ fight fund if i didn't want the name to stay. I just don't want UND hurt because of it.

[andtheHomeoftheSIOUX!!]

I posted on Wisconsin's refusal to play us in my

blog

They will not play North Dakota because their athletic teams are named for a group of people, the Dakota (or Sioux) Indians. At the same time, Wisconsin's athletic teams are also named for a group of people.

This is very hypocritical of them.

[The Sicatoka]

I just asked to what point do we want to change the name.

At risk of repeating myself (and someone else):

"You'll know the very instant the 'Fighting Sioux' moniker is

a net total impact negative

for UND. And at that instant it will be changed, and

not before

."

[mikeypat15]

Lets play Utah and Florida State

[HockeyMom]

Lets play Utah and Florida State

Yeah! Problem fixed. Florida State should come up with a rule that it won't play any teams on the banned list. LMFAO

[PCM]

I never once said to change the name today. I just asked to what point do we want to change the name.

That's a legitimate question, although it seems to assume that the change is inevitable. And maybe it is, but I don't think we're there yet.

Here's another point to consider: We Sioux fans like to point out the hypocrisy of the NCAA, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa and other schools for abandoning their high-minded principles on the nickname issue whenever they have the chance to make a buck. Would UND be any better if it abandoned its principles for the sake of playing certain teams at the DI level?

Some things should be more important than making a buck or playing a game. That's where I come from on this issue.

[mksioux]

Not at all. I simply don't understand why someone would brag about giving money to a cause that he/she is obviously read to abandon.

Got ya. I misunderstood.

[Matt]

Good grief. Obviously, Wisconsin won't play us in anything besides hockey. Is this big news to you? Wisconsin had this policy in effect long before the NCAA chose to muddy the issue. Minnesota has had its policy for years, but didn't enforce it.

Perhaps this will better explain my position to you.

I'm not going to pretend I had any idea whatsoever that, when considering the pros and cons of a move to D-1, neither Minnesota, Wisconsin, nor Iowa would be on our schedules. Since their policies were in place before the nickname situation came up with the NCAA, the question must be asked if that was taken into consideration and/or public discussion prior to a D-1 decision.

[Hawkster]

I too, feel that it is time to drop the Sioux name. The list of who won't play us will only get longer. How long before NDSU uses the name as an excuse to go along with the snub the Sioux gave NDSU during their transition. I can well imagine trying to get into any conference with this hanging over UND's head as well. I say change it and get it over with. Even with the lawsuit, UND could well win the suit and still lose the war.

[star2city]

How long before NDSU uses the name as an excuse to go along with the snub the Sioux gave NDSU during their transition.

As a UND fan, such a move by NDSU would be a wonder to behold.

But even NDSU's leadership isn't that publicly hypocritical and they certainly aren't that stupid (their fans are, though ). First off, NDSU is part of the NDUS, which is what is suing the NCAA. NDSU is not going to antagonize Hoeven, or Stenehjem, or the Legislature. Second, if NDSU publicly stated they wouldn't schedule UND because of the nickname (granted, Amy Ruley and Lynn Dorn are probably in favor of this), the firestorm of bad publicity among state residents would cause anti-NDSU sentiment.

I can well imagine trying to get into any conference with this hanging over UND's head as well. I say change it and get it over with. Even with the lawsuit, UND could well win the suit and still lose the war.

UND is winning the public relations war: the public overwhelming supports UND vs. the position of the NCAA. UND has a very good chance of becoming a folk hero among sports fans because of not backing down when confronted with the Goliath, the NCAA. A positive verdict next January in court will bring a tremendous amount of good press to UND. If we lose the case, the name gets changed.

[star2city]

Gliberalism

What we see on the American campus is not liberalism, but a gutted and gutless "gliberalism," that leaves to others the responsibility for governance, and arrogates to itself the right to criticize.

UND has taken a true liberal position, by attempting to protect freedoms, in court.

Liberalism worthy of the name emphasizes freedom of the individual, democracy and the rule of law. Liberalism is prepared to fight for those freedoms through constitutional participatory government, and to protect those freedoms, in battle if necessary.

Although the nickname pales relative to other issues, Dartmouth, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Iowa have all fallen victim to gutless academic leadership intimitated by gliberalism.

University administrations live in fear--but not of al Qaeda or the destructive capabilities of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Kim Jong Il. They fear the tactics of disruption and violent uprising perfected by radicals of the 1960s and available to their heirs. The more prestigious the university, the more traumatized it seems to be by memories of riots it was once powerless to quell. Preying on those fears, dissident groups have learned to use the politics of intimidation to impose their agenda, ...

[Taz Boy]

I too, feel that it is time to drop the Sioux name. The list of who won't play us will only get longer. How long before NDSU uses the name as an excuse to go along with the snub the Sioux gave NDSU during their transition. I can well imagine trying to get into any conference with this hanging over UND's head as well. I say change it and get it over with. Even with the lawsuit, UND could well win the suit and still lose the war.

This defeatist attitude is not becoming of a Fighting Sioux. Give in? Acquiesce? Why not? After all, it's what the opposition wants. Seems popular these days. I can't imagine the day I get so tired of being called a racist that I end up agreeing; if only just to get along. Must we really place that much importance on a pre-season basketball game, or a chance at a "moral victory" in football?

Rest assured, the vast majority of thinking humans are supporting UND. The policies of these institutions are vague, fragile, and full of convenient loopholes. Like global warming, it's all about the money. And when someone does the not-so-challenging computation showing $$ are to be had with a Sioux-Gopher contest in mid-season, it will happen.

Fight on Sioux! Fight on.

[SiouxMeNow]

That's a legitimate question, although it seems to assume that the change is inevitable. And maybe it is, but I don't think we're there yet.

Here's another point to consider: We Sioux fans like to point out the hypocrisy of the NCAA, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa and other schools for abandoning their high-minded principles on the nickname issue whenever they have the chance to make a buck. Would UND be any better if it abandoned its principles for the sake of playing certain teams at the DI level?

Some things should be more important than making a buck or playing a game. That's where I come from on this issue.

I agree UND should push this to the limit and I fully support the lawsuit...here's the difference PCM...Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, et al have staked out the MORAL high ground on this issue. ("We will not play a team with a NA nickname...BLAH BLAH BLAH') If the lawsuit doesn't work out and UND is forced to consider a "name change" - that's our opportunity to stake out the FREE SPEECH high ground. As others have suggested, just go with North Dakota - no nickname - we don't want another one and we don't need it!

No one (at least not YET! ) can tell you what you can wear to a game or what you can say (without inciting a riot) There's enough Sioux clothing out there right now to last at least 20 years and, last time I checked, security at the Ralph has NOT been issued Duct tape to seal anyone's mouth - so without shouting fire in a crowded theatre, you can pretty much shout out anything you want at a hockey game UND will always be the home of the Fighting Sioux - even if the University has to disavow it for business reasons...the name will live on at least in spirit! They can't take THAT away from us...

[Matt]

This defeatist attitude is not becoming of a Fighting Sioux. Give in? Acquiesce? Why not? After all, it's what the opposition wants. Seems popular these days. I can't imagine the day I get so tired of being called a racist that I end up agreeing; if only just to get along. Must we really place that much importance on a pre-season basketball game, or a chance at a "moral victory" in football?

Rest assured, the vast majority of thinking humans are supporting UND. The policies of these institutions are vague, fragile, and full of convenient loopholes. Like global warming, it's all about the money. And when someone does the not-so-challenging computation showing $$ are to be had with a Sioux-Gopher contest in mid-season, it will happen.

Fight on Sioux! Fight on.

The vast majority of thinking humans don't care at all what the UND nickname is, nor do they care how the NCAA governs its members. This is a big deal to a relatively small group a people, and yes, there are some heavy issues involved, but I don't believe the general public cares much one way or the other, even if they say UND should be able to keep the name. That's just lip service. If UND had to change, the public will shrug its collective shoulders and say "oh well". Now, if the NCAA were to restrict people's ability to wager on the NCAA BB tournament brackets, then you would see the public get crabby.

[Hawkster]

UND is winning the public relations war: the public overwhelming supports UND vs. the position of the NCAA. UND has a very good chance of becoming a folk hero among sports fans because of not backing down when confronted with the Goliath, the NCAA. A positive verdict next January in court will bring a tremendous amount of good press to UND. If we lose the case, the name gets changed.

Winning the public relations war where? Every time some team refuses to play UND, that just makes things worse. The fact that there is so much controversy over the name is proof that the name needs to go. Even if UND wins the first round of the lawsuit, the NCAA will appeal. More headlines and more publicity. Change the name and get it over with.

[choyt3]

Winning the public relations war where? Every time some team refuses to play UND, that just makes things worse. The fact that there is so much controversy over the name is proof that the name needs to go. Even if UND wins the first round of the lawsuit, the NCAA will appeal. More headlines and more publicity. Change the name and get it over with.

So, 3 (or 4) teams refuse to play UND. There are HUNDREDS of others that have NOT refused to play UND.

You're no Sioux fan.

[star2city]

You're no Sioux fan.

Every TRex post has been a bison dropping.

I have serious doubts about UND's ability to perform at the D1 level for the foreseeable future. Football team was good, but not overwhelming, and recruiting is going to be tough for the next few years. The men's basketball team is pathetic. I see disaster ahead.

Anyone who has seen the mens basketball team knows what I am talking about. One has to wonder about the level of committment UND has to going D1.

I doubt UND would drop football, if for no other reason, that's the only sport that will be in a conference (Great West). As to becoming a basketball power again, not the way the guys are playing this year. They are pathetic. Add to that the fact that conferences are going to be hard to find. Forget Big Sky, it isn't going to happen. I doubt anyone is going to drop out of the Mid Con any time soon, and there is nothing else out there. I imagine they will keep plugging along, pumping money in, and hoping for the best. But I see tough times ahead.

I think it's time to give it up and change the name. There are going to be more and more people opposed to the Sioux name, and it's time to move on. It certainly isn't going to help get a D1 conference with this hanging over UND.

I think you have to remember the fate of past successful Bison coaches who left. There was Jim Wacker who eventually when to Minnesota and was fired for miserable teams. There was Don Morton who eventually went to Wisconson, only to get fired for miserable teams. There was Earl Solomonson who went to Montana and was never heard from again. Why leave a succesful program?

Something better happen pretty soon on verbals. I see NDSU is picking up prime players every day. Is someone in the front office not letting any info escape, or is UND being snubbed by the high school seniors because of the D1 move and no play offs?

[LB#11]

I too, feel that it is time to drop the Sioux name. The list of who won't play us will only get longer. How long before NDSU uses the name as an excuse to go along with the snub the Sioux gave NDSU during their transition. I can well imagine trying to get into any conference with this hanging over UND's head as well. I say change it and get it over with. Even with the lawsuit, UND could well win the suit and still lose the war.

I was wondering why anyone would just give up. Thanks star2city for pointing out why TRex would form such an opinion. This just gives us a little extra incentive to whoop up on Minnesota & Wisconsin when we play them in hockey...kind of like last weekend.