Restructuring NDUS engineering programs

[MplsBison]

There is no reason IMO that both NDSU and UND should duplicate engineering programs.

I'd like to see an Aerospace engineering program started at UND since they obviously have a big aerosapce program up there. Also, since UND has the med school I think everything relating to human biology should be at UND. So the biomedical engineering option at NDSU should be made into a full fledged program at UND.

Chemical engineering should be at NDSU since we have the Polymers/Coatings program with the ME/Chem departments.

The classical engineering programs (civil, industrial/manufacturing, electrical/computer, and mechanical) and agriculture engineering should be at NDSU since we're the land grant argirculture/mechnical arts school.

No idea what to do with geological engineering since I have no idea which school's mission that department relates closest with.

[SiouxMD]

There is no reason IMO that both NDSU and UND should duplicate engineering programs.

I'd like to see an Aerospace engineering program started at UND since they obviously have a big aerosapce program up there. Also, since UND has the med school I think everything relating to human biology should be at UND. So the biomedical engineering option at NDSU should be made into a full fledged program at UND.

Chemical engineering should be at NDSU since we have the Polymers/Coatings program with the ME/Chem departments.

The classical engineering programs (civil, industrial/manufacturing, electrical/computer, and mechanical) and agriculture engineering should be at NDSU since we're the land grant argirculture/mechnical arts school.

No idea what to do with geological engineering since I have no idea which school's mission that department relates closest with.

Mechanical arts

In the medieval period, the Seven Mechanical Arts were intended as a complement to the Seven Liberal Arts, and consisted of weaving, blacksmithing, war, navigation, agriculture, hunting, medicine, and the ars theatrica.

Ok...

NDSU gets weaving, blacksmithing, agriculture and ars theatrica.

UND gets war, navigation, hunting, and medicine.

50/50. No duplication. Done deal.

[The Sicatoka]

Also, since UND has the med school I think everything relating to human biology should be at UND.

If everything "biology" or "medical" should be in GF, move the Pharmacy Department (and its nursing subprogram) from NDSU to UND. Don't blame me, it's your notion.

PS - That'll happen the same day UND Engineering reorganizes in this (ahem) manner.

[MplsBison]

I very specifically said human biology.

Note the difference from plant and animal biology.

Pharmacy is chemistry.

I wouldn't have a problem with nursing being at UND.

[MplsBison]

Mechanical arts

Mechanical arts as defined by Morrill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrill_Act

Morrill resubmitted the act with the amendment that the proposed institutions would teach military tactics as well as engineering and agriculture.

[star2city]

I'd like to see an Aerospace engineering program started at UND since they obviously have a big aerosapce program up there. Also, since UND has the med school I think everything relating to human biology should be at UND. So the biomedical engineering option at NDSU should be made into a full fledged program at UND.

Aerospace and biomedical engineering are often considered specialities in mechanical engineering, although biomedical affiliates with electrical and sometimes chemical. To meet course requirements in engineering disciplines require course work in civil, electrical, and mechanical engineering, so those three disciplines are needed in any engineering school.

Chemical engineering should be at NDSU since we have the Polymers/Coatings program with the ME/Chem departments.

Those two programs normally have very little overlap, although polymers and coatings can be a specialty within some chemical engineering departments (and in certain mechanical engineering departments). Chemical engineering is much broader (basically applied physical chemistry) and NDSU has no capability in it that any certifying organization would recognize.

The classical engineering programs (civil, industrial/manufacturing, electrical/computer, and mechanical) and agriculture engineering should be at NDSU since we're the land grant argirculture/mechnical arts school.

You may be surprised at this:

The University charter, in compliance with the Federal Enabling Act of February 22, 1889, which provided a land grant of 40,000 acres for the School of Mines in harmony with the Constitution of North Dakota, located the School of Mines at Grand Forks and made the School of Mines the Engineering College of the University of North Dakota.

So the designated location of the North Dakota School of Engineering and Mines, per the ND Constitution, is Grand Forks. (Much as the home of the South Dakota School of Engineering and Mines is Rapid City, and home of the Colorado School of Engineering and Mines [Colorado Mines] is Golden.) BTW, industrial and manufacturing engineering are far from "classical" programs.

No idea what to do with geological engineering since I have no idea which school's mission that department relates closest with.

Perhaps the geology department with the civil and mechanical engineering deparments.

[MplsBison]

Tulane is getting rid of civil, mechanical, and electrical engineering while keeping I think biological, chemical etc.

It's actually what got me thinking about this.

[iramurphy]

I very specifically said human biology.

Note the difference from plant and animal biology.

Pharmacy is chemistry.

I wouldn't have a problem with nursing being at UND.

Pharmacy is much more than Chemistry and if we are going to be pressured into letting Pharmacists start prescribing certain medications because they now get a doctorate, then that would seem to fit with the Medical school and College of Nursing rather than the Chemistry folks at NDSU. You can make a good argument for keeping it with the Ag Sciences but because it is one of the programs that defines NDSU I don't think it would get moved.

UND has a good Chem Engr program. You could make the argument because of the Ag Chem programs etc. you want to move it to Fargo but it is so much different than the other engineering disciplines that I don't think it would be worth making the move. Along with the Geology and Geological Engr and coal gasification research it seems the Chem Engr would be best left at UND.

I would think with your line of thinking you would also support the Accounting and Business programs also being moved to UND as the programs at NDSU have only been accredited in the last few years and frankly, these programs at UND are much better than the programs in Fargo. If we don't want duplication of the programs then that would be the obvious move. It won't happen because the reason it was created at NDSU in the first place was that there were too many athletes who wanted to major in business and wouldn't buy into the Tri-college system.

If there is going to be serious discussion to eliminate duplication then there will need to be give and take and the athletic directors and athletic boosters can't be involed in the discussion or decisions. For that reason alone, I don't think it will happen unless the Fargo legislators can build a strong enough alliance to simply out vote the opposition to get their wishes. The Grand Forks legislators aren't united enough and don't have the same lobbying power the Fargo area legislators do.

[MplsBison]

Business is a program every college needs to survive.

Engineering is not. Plenty of big time schools without engineering. U Oregon, U Georgia, U Indiana, etc.

How many UND athletes would be without majors if the CE, ME, and EE programs went to NDSU?

Chem/Geo should stay at UND.

[iramurphy]

Business is a program every college needs to survive.

Engineering is not. Plenty of big time schools without engineering. U Oregon, U Georgia, U Indiana, etc.

How many UND athletes would be without majors if the CE, ME, and EE programs went to NDSU?

Chem/Geo should stay at UND.

3 of the four Engineering majors in FB, none in hockey according to the media guides. I would guess an additional handful in the other sports (total 10-20 of the 400-500 athletes) but Engineering has been strong at UND so why would they want to move it? There would need to be some give and take.

IF UND is going to have Aerospace or Aeronautical Engineering then keeping Mechanical at UND would make sense. Sending EE and CE to NDSU as the trade for ME and Aerospace might be fair. NDSU doesn't have Chem Engr so it would stay at UND and is not part of the equation.

Business is not a program everyone needs to survive. Once a school has it, I don't think anyone will want to give it up though. Many colleges don't have it. The Accounting program is one that doesn't need to be replicated and UND has been so strong for years it would make no sense to move it away from UND. On the otherhand, the cost of moving it would be minimal which ever way you moved.

I was a CE major at UND and was advised to go there by the head of the states Federal Highway Administration because he felt UND had the better program. It was based on the interaction he had with the professors from the two schools and the interns they had working for the Federal Highway Administration in the summers. I am sure you can find someone who will tell you they prefer NDSU. The point is UND does have an excellent school of engineering. The quality of ME's from UND is excellent and they are highly recruited. I believe the EE program at UND is also very good but I don't have recent info to back that up. I have been told it is excellent at NDSU.

[MplsBison]

Engineering has been strong at UND so why would they want to move it?

I don't doubt UND's stature in engineering.

Just questioning the duplicity in those areas.

[iramurphy]

I don't doubt UND's stature in engineering.

Just questioning the duplicity in those areas.

So what would the trades be? If UND gave up EE and CE what would they get in return?

[The Sicatoka]

I very specifically said human biology.

Note the difference from plant and animal biology.

Pharmacy is chemistry.

I wouldn't have a problem with nursing being at UND.

Yup, "human biology". And the vast majority of pharmacy work in the world today is aimed at improving the performance of "human biology"; thus, by your standard, Pharmacy to UND.

Like I said, don't blame me, it's your idea.

[BobIwabuchiFan]

Mpsbison,

From your comments and logic in this discussion, I believe you have no real experience as an Engineer. If it comes out that you have an engineering degree from NDSU, then it will only substantiate my first comment.

BobIwabuchiFan

[The Sicatoka]

NDSU is "land grant" or "mechanical arts".

UND is traditional liberal arts: Grammar, Rhetoric, Logic, Arithmetic, Geometry, Music, Astronomy.

Thus, NDSU's music and art programs must move to UND under this notion also, right?

As must the English and Languages programs.

And the Mathematics department.

And Philosophy.

All to UND.

Good thing Aerospace is already at UND.

Again, it's your notion.

(We just get a case study on which school focuses on "Logic". )

[siouxnami]

There is no reason IMO that both NDSU and UND should duplicate engineering programs.

I'd like to see an Aerospace engineering program started at UND since they obviously have a big aerosapce program up there. Also, since UND has the med school I think everything relating to human biology should be at UND. So the biomedical engineering option at NDSU should be made into a full fledged program at UND.

Chemical engineering should be at NDSU since we have the Polymers/Coatings program with the ME/Chem departments.

The classical engineering programs (civil, industrial/manufacturing, electrical/computer, and mechanical) and agriculture engineering should be at NDSU since we're the land grant argirculture/mechnical arts school.

No idea what to do with geological engineering since I have no idea which school's mission that department relates closest with.

I don't agree with electrical / computer or mechanical. Mechanical should be at both schools since the workforce will require so many new MEs and (CEs) and if the electrical / computer had to be at 1 school is should be at UND because 1) UND is considered to be a superiors EE school, (yes I may be biased, but the 2 large employers I worked for as an EE strongly agreed) 2) The EERC is in Grand Forks, 3) A UND Alumni is the father of modern communications and one of the most famous EEs ever. 4) While I did attend UND, I transfered in and took a hard look at both programs, and UND was light years ahead, NDSU never got serious consideration.

However, none of this really matters since both programs will continue in their current forms.

[ScottM]

As a practical matter, and some overlap,nothwithstanding, I think it's great that NoDak has devoted so many resources to engineering and other technical disciplines. Certainly there are opportunities for sharing resources, but if UND and 'su continue to push out highly sought-after products, I don't really see a downside to this "competition".

[siouxman68]

I was told by a source who should know that any University with graduate research dept's need an engineering school. What that means, I don't know.

DG

[MplsBison]

So what would the trades be? If UND gave up EE and CE what would they get in return?

UND gives up EE, CE, ME and gains full sized ABET accredited Aerospace Engineering and Biomedical Engineering programs.

[MplsBison]

Yup, "human biology". And the vast majority of pharmacy work in the world today is aimed at improving the performance of "human biology"; thus, by your standard, Pharmacy to UND.

Since Civil Engineering increases the performance of human biology by allowing us to travel faster and safer..

come on.

[MplsBison]

I was told by a source who should know that any University with graduate research dept's need an engineering school. What that means, I don't know.

U Oregon, U Georgia, U Indiana, etc.

No engineering.

[The Sicatoka]

MplsBison, c'mon use your head, and some logic:

- Civil engineers modify the world, not human biology, to improve human life.

- When you're sick you see a doctor who sends you to a pharmacist for what you need to get well, all based on human biology, to modify human biology, to improve human life.

NDSU can have all of the civil engineers (I've never met one).

UND gets the Pharmacy (and that college's associated) programs from NDSU.

Again, your posit, your 'logic'.

You're just mad that your own idea (that would hurt UND) ended up backfiring (and would hurt NDSU worse).

[MplsBison]

The Human Performance and Fitness major at NDSU increases the performance of human biology. It obviously has nothing to do with Biology, Chemistry, or Medicine.

I was not trying to hurt UND. UND is not known as an engineering school and it would not hurt them to lose the EE, CE, and ME programs. I was only trying to help the NDUS system remove unneeded duplicity.

[BobIwabuchiFan]

Mplsbison,

I still don't know where you are getting your subjective facts for saying NDSU has the top Engr school in the dakotas? What evidence is there other than your known bias? Again, do you have an engineering degree from either school to make your arguement seem somewhat more than sheer guess and assumption? Also, I would think the better fit would be to allow you guys to continue your IE and Architecture programs and leave the core engineering programs like CE, EE, ME, ChemE to UND where energy and mining are the primary focuses.

BobIwabuchiFan

[iramurphy]

The Human Performance and Fitness major at NDSU increases the performance of human biology. It obviously has nothing to do with Biology, Chemistry, or Medicine.

I was not trying to hurt UND. UND is not known as an engineering school and it would not hurt them to lose the EE, CE, and ME programs. I was only trying to help the NDUS system remove unneeded duplicity.

UND is known as much more than an Engineering School. To the industry leaders, companies and organizations who hire engineers, UND has an excellent reputation. NDSU is not known as an Engineering school anymore than UND is. It is known primarily as an Agricultural College thus the long standing name "the AC" which was used by everyone including the AC grads and students. It wasn't a derogatory term until someone who went to school there decided to be offended.

It has an excellent pharmacy program and because there are not many pharmacy programs in this region it is one of the conerstone programs to your school. I dont' think oyou would want to give that up but if UND was going to give up three strong Engr programs like ME, CE and EE, it would take a trade of that magnitude. Others have outlined the history of the School of Engr and Mines and I think that should put to rest any idea that all Engr should be only at the Land Grant School.

If duplication is really an issue then the first thing to do will be to close the smaller colleges such as Mayville State and Valley City State. You will likely save enough $$ to leave the Engineering programs at both schools intact. If that works well, you can move west to decide which other colleges to close. Unfortunately, it will come down to who has the stongest lobby and political power to influence the legislature.

I think those not familiar with UND's Engineering are under the mistaken impression it isn't very good because you don't know much about it. They should be marketing the programs and publicizing the programs and success of the grads but closing them or moving them is not an option.