Alerus vs. the Ralph

[shootdogger]

shootdogger, explain to me the DECC in Duluth.They seem to be doing ok and they have been around since the 60's.(before the Sky Walk)

Explain the DECC??? Many have tried, few have succeeded.

Hotel-wise...though none are connected, plenty are RIGHT there. The DECC has the Canal Park Inn, Canal Park Comfort Inn, Canal Park Hampton, and probably more, but that's all I can think of right now. And then there is the attraction of Canal Park itself. I never said the Alerus should have a 'connected' hotel, but adjacent ones...adjacent meaning 'next to' so that Center to Hotel access is quick and easy.

Btw, I'm all for Mom and Pop hotels. I stay at East Grand's palacial Plaza Hotel every time I go back....and most certainly not because its the swankiest place, but b/c the same Mom and Pop remember us, smile, and tell us the weather hasn't changed since my last visit, everytime I show up.

Nonetheless, I don't believe the CANAD should be stopped from entering the market. Other tax credits could be worked out to assist smaller businesses survive with the introduction of s/t like CANAD. I certainly don't think its fair that new businesses--or post 97s as they seem to be thought of--should get all the tax benefits/tax free years/land, whatever incentives are thrown out there.

[mksioux]

Besides it's their turf too and they should have a say.Wouldn't you agree with that mksioux?Heck I bet they pay more taxes than you Jim and me combined.(well may not Jim)

I never said they shouldn't have a say. They clearly are getting a say.

And I can somewhat understand where the hotel owners are coming from. I just think they're misguided. The city is offering an incentive package to Canad to realize an opportunity that is not being addressed by the local business. The city has had the offer on the table for a long time. I'm sure the city would have been more than responsive to a local group, but no locals have stepped up.

The motel owners claim there is no need for another motel. If Grand Forks wants to simply preserve the status quo, there may not be a need. But, if Grand Forks wants to expand, attract conventions, host world-class events, there is a need.

Maybe that's the rub. If the people of Grand Forks are simply happy with what they have and simply want to maintain the status quo, then they'll get what they deserve and shouldn't complain at all when their kids leave the state for better opportunities. Is Canad a savior? No. But it is a piece of the puzzle. And more importantly, other business/investors will take note of this situation and how the city reacts.

I would agree that the city should not give Canad unreasonable incentives to lure them to the city. However, I don't believe the package the city is offering is anywhere close to unreasonable. Whether one likes it or not, economic development usually involves some sort of incentive from a governmental entity to a business it is courting. As long as the incentive package passes the cost/benefit test, I think it's a good thing.

In my opinion, prudent economic development can drastically help communities like Grand Forks who are struggling with the outmigration of their young people. If the city is healthy and growing, all the businesses benefit.

And I ask you again, what is the alternative? How will doing nothing help existing hotels?

And on the tax issue, I don't pay taxes to Grand Forks because I don't live there. (except for sales tax when I go and spend money there). But that's part of the point. I think there are many young people from the area that would like to stay/go back to Grand Forks if they could come back to a growing economy and good jobs. The protectionist attitude Grand Forks has maintained for the last 50 years will certainly do nothing to make that happen.

[Riverman]

Btw, I'm all for Mom and Pop hotels. I stay at East Grand's palacial Plaza Hotel every time I go back....and most certainly not because its the swankiest place, but b/c the same Mom and Pop remember us, smile, and tell us the weather hasn't changed since my last visit, everytime I show up.

Shootdogger,If you can tell me the type of hat Ron wears, I will stop picking on you.

[shootdogger]

Shootdogger,If you can tell me the type of hat Ron wears, I will stop picking on you.

You're not realizing that the DECC has many hotel's near it was an example of you picking on me?

......I'm glad I missed that jab I lest I lose some sleep.

[Riverman]

Shoot,I think you missed my point.But that's ok.

However you didn't answer the question, I asked what hat does Ron

wear?(Plaza) :pYou would know this if you stay there.

[The Sicatoka]

I was looking for something else in this forum and came across the title of this old, near-dead thread:

The Alerus versus The Ralph

Two venues that any other similarly sized city (and a lot of much larger cities) in the world would love to have either of.

What a terrible dilemma for Grand Forks and the University of North Dakota.

[SiouxMeNow]

The Sicatoka is right...for a town our size we are lucky! We needed and voted for the Alerus, then got the Ralph as a bonus gift! There is some unavoidable competition and the Al does run a deficit but when you look at the big picture - GF is MUCH BETTER OFF for both the present and the future with both facilities.... remember...we used to subsidize the old Civic Auditorium (yeah, the old ARMORY downtown) to the tune of -$150,000 a year and what did that old pig generate?

[sprig]

Recently booked online for a one night stay in GF, at the Travelodge (under $37). Looking at the 11 night package for the World Juniors, the same motel is in the "red" group, which comes to a whooping $111/night. A $70+/night price increase? Would expect to pay more because of the event, but a near 200% increase?

The price for the hockey (21 games for $455) is a steal by comparison.

http://www.ralphsworldjr.com/

[airmail]

Would expect to pay more because of the event, but a near 200% increase?

Never underestimate a business' willingness to gouge the hell out of you whenever possible.

(... maybe I will rent my home out that week)

[bigmrg74]

Hmmmmm..... How much would your place be? And how much would it be to ride the cockroaches?? j/k

[airmail]

Hmmmmm.....  How much would your place be?  And how much would it be to ride the cockroaches??      j/k

Well that depends... are you interested in the main house or the guest house. Both are very accomodating... it all depends on the size of your group.

And how much would it be to ride the cockroaches??      j/k

No cockroaches... just dung beetles. And they're in the stables, not the houses. Usually my stable man keeps things pretty clean, though...

[Fedorov]

It's not going to come in and charge less than all the other motels and then jack it's price up once it's driven competition out (like a Wal-Mart).

I have never experienced Walmart raising prices. If you want a real example of that tactic, try Blockbuster.

[dakotadan]

I know that no one has posted in this forum for a while but I suppose I will try to revive it once more. After reading this forum, I did some searching and found an on-line article about the Canad. This is the first part of the article.

By Tu-Uyen Tran, Grand Forks Herald, N.D. Knight Ridder/Tribune Business News

Mar. 30--Grand Forks' deal with Canad Inns of Winnipeg officially is settled after four years, two tries and countless legal drafts.

The City Council approved at a special session Monday night the final agreements.

Canad now can proceed with its plan to build a $35 million to $40 million hotel and entertainment complex next to the city-owned Alerus Center.

Canad chief Leo Ledohowski said he'll instruct his architect, Johnson Laffen Galloway, today to begin drawing detailed construction plans immediately. He said he's not sure when construction could begin but he's certain he would miss a prior deadline to open by December.

Ledohowski had hoped to have the hotel ready for hockey's World Junior Championship at that time. Now, he said, he'll have to make other plans to establish Canad's presence, plans he would describe only as "significant." ...

This is all I could get of the article. I know that there are now pictures out there of what the hotel is supposed to look like. I will see if I can find some to post.

[dakotadan]

I also found this article in the GF Herald from June 8 but once again could only get this much of the article without paying $3.00! At least it shows that this is actually happening. I also e-mailed the Grand Cities Convention and Visitors Bureau and asked for information on where it is at and if there are any blueprints, pictures, etc. that are available yet. I will let you all know when and if I get any information.

Source: Herald Staff Report

Despite the appearance of inactivity, Canad Inns remains committed to building a hotel in Grand Forks, a company spokesman said Thursday."Lay people want to see the dirt flying," he said, but Canad is still in the "invisible part of the process."This involves designing the hotel, its attached water park and a 10-screen cinema. So far, the city planning department has not received any plans from Canad.Among other things, Canad is testing the soil at the building

Published on June 18, 2004, Page 03, Grand Forks Herald (ND)

[The Sicatoka]

I did some searching.

A rendering here:

http://www.crocusfund.com/about/news.asp?action=95

The Canad homepage talks about a late 2005 or early 2006 opening.

http://www.canadinns.com/

[Local Boy]

remember...we used to subsidize the old Civic Auditorium (yeah, the old ARMORY downtown) to the tune of -$150,000 a year and what did that old pig generate?

Not trying to stir the pot here...just trying to provide some clarity.

Why is the above quote of any significance? It's not apples-to-apples. The Alerus benefits from a HUGE tax infusion. This goes on the top line with revenues. Then, after all is said and done, the property still loses a quarter million a year.

It's spin. What is the amount of the taxes? I'd like to know. I've never felt the operating losses should include the tax juice. Paints a prettier picture though...I guess.

Local Boy

[Local Boy]

Over 150 views of my above question and not one reply. Someone has to have an answer.

Why no replys? I'd like to know.

Thanks

[UND92,96]

Over 150 views of my above question and not one reply.  Someone has to have an answer.

Why no replys?  I'd like to know.

Thanks

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, so I hadn't replied until now--not that I'm an expert, anyway. According to a January 22, 2004 Herald article, the Alerus Center gets one quarter of each year's city hospitality tax, in addition to the sales tax it generates itself from ticket sales and concessions. In 2003, the amount of that hospitality tax was $304,000 according to the aforementioned article.

The article also stated that the arena made a $162,000 profit, while the convention center lost $322,000. I'm not sure the convention center itself will ever turn a profit--nor was it necessarily ever contemplated that it would. I do think that it's safe to say that there will be far more big conventions once the Canad Hotel is completed. That should give a truer indication of the extent of losses the convention center can expect in the future.

[Local Boy]

Thanks for the reply. So, when comparing the operating loss of The Alerus to the old civic, you would need to add 76K to The Alerus Center's annual loss. $304,000 x .25. Correct?

I love optimism too but I highly doubt The Alerus and Grand Forks will ever be a significant Regional convention destination. I hope I'm wrong. The center is really behind the 8 ball given the fact that the Convention Center has such a horrible reputation and the Arena side has upset the few major concert promoters that feed the center the major National concert events.

Grand Forks getting into the business as a promoter and competing for dates with "real" promoters is not a good idea. In fact, it's a VERY bad idea. Bid for a date against CC, HOB, or Concerts West then see if they ever ring the phone again. I doubt it. There's other venues to send the talent to.

It's a bleak situation. No one can speak their mind on the issue from a constructive criticism point of view. You're just another "naysayer".

I know I'll get kicked around for my opinion on this topic but, it's really a no-brainer. The Alerus has been a major disappointment since it opened. Speaking from a cost benefit and event execution point a view.

The hotel issue is another big joke. "Build it and they will come". We've all heard that before.

[UND92,96]

Thanks for the reply.

[bisonguy]

Looks like the Alerus Center is extending open hands to grab the checkbook from the city of Grand Forks once again. The Alerus Center is over $450k in the red for the year according to KVLY-TV, and is asking the city of Grand Forks for over $250,000 to help attract events (more subsidizing).

Congratulations Grand Forks! You're well on your way to subsidizing the Alerus Center for well over one million dollars in only four short years . With the ridiculous property taxes in Grand Forks already, something has got to give.

On a more positive note, the Alerus Center will be creating some space for UND football (displays, etc.) as long as $276,000 is donated for the cause.

[The Sicatoka]

Folks in Fargo should be far from chuckling about domed stadium operations and budgets (improper advance to a "promoter" ring a bell?) and city property taxes. Both apply just about as well.

And space and dollars for the local university's football program, like locker rooms (does that ring bells too)?

[bisonguy]

Folks in Fargo should be far from chuckling about domed stadium operations and budgets (improper advance to a "promoter" ring a bell?) and city property taxes. Both apply just about as well.

And space and dollars for the local university's football program, like locker rooms (does that ring bells too)?

Global Spectrum took care of the "improper advance" issue both financially and with a proper course of action (i.e. firing).

Property taxes- My in-laws that live in GF, who have similar priced homes as myself, pay 50-75% more in property taxes than I do in Fargo. I would not consider that "just about as well". Where does this extra revenue go? It surely doesn't go for snow removal in GF.

The Fargodome already built a Bison shrine (with Fargodome profits ) in one of the larger concourses at no cost to NDSU. Why should UND have to pay for essentially the same thing? (especially as the primary tenant of the Alerus)

Locker rooms- I have no idea what you are talking about. NDSU already has a gameday locker room in the Fargodome, and will be building a new PRACTICE locker room in the Fargodome. Currently, NDSU's practice locker room is located under Dacotah Field, much as UND's practice locker room is located at Memorial Stadium (?), not the Alerus. Yeah, there were discussions about who should pay for the construction costs, but those were mainly based on legal issues (would the locker rooms be city property, NDSU "owning" something in a city-owned building, etc.). The money was already in place if NDSU needed to pay for construction costs.

I'll take black ink and money in reserve, over red ink and higher property taxes anyday.

[airmail]

I'll take black ink and money in reserve, over red ink and higher property taxes anyday. 

Although it pains me to do so... you can't argue with logic. Property taxes are futz in Grand Forks, and show no signs of slowing down.

The Alerus is another straw on the backs of the GF residents. It isn't difficult to understand why the popularity isn't there. There are many who are still ticked about the whole "Aurora" being shoved down their throats. Shot down in flames twice, and passing a third time by a narrow margin? Even Walter Mondale would've had good luck after 3 elections. (Well... maybe not... )

However... that withstanding, I enjoy the events the Alerus has to offer, especially football. Certainly we have one of the most decided home field advantages in D-II football and a growing fan base. The Alerus has made Sioux football an event in Grand Forks, and the people are responding. As far as other events, yes... they need to crap or get off the pot. This constant red ink is an embarrasment for the community, and it's getting old fast.

In a nutshell, it's there now, whether we wanted it or not; and it won't succeed without the full support of the community.

[UND92,96]

The Alerus is another straw on the backs of the GF residents.