Lacrosse at a "DI" UND?

[MplsBison]

$$$ and Title IX.

If UND could have a sport that made money (or at least didn't lose it) in lacrosse versus a sure money loser, baseball, why not make the change??

Why not just add a money making sport? You can't be doing any worse than you are now, correct?

[GeauxSioux]

Why not just add a money making sport? You can't be doing any worse than you are now, correct?

Title IX

[star2city]

Why not just add a money making sport? You can't be doing any worse than you are now, correct?

You're confusing revenue producing vs money making. For me to claim LAX would make money, is more than a stretch. To claim that it would produce significant revenue (far exceeding women's volleyball, women's hockey, etc), would not be a stretch whatsoever. The problem with adding LAX but not dropping another men's sport, is then another women's sport has to be added, effectively doubling the expense without increasing revenue. (Two possible women's revenue sports for UND: women's synchronized skating would possibly be revenue producing at UND - women who don't normally watch sports would flock to it, and women's beach volleyball using the Hyslop for a sand venue.)

The main problem with the LAX structure is that UND would really need a travel partner. Most schools play two games on a weekend. When teams fly to Colorado, they have Denver and Air Force back to back. Ohio State next year will have Bellarmine as a travel partner. One other school in the Upper Midwest or even Chicago would have to partner with UND. Those four schools will now be part of the ECAC, which would want to kick them out anyway. A six team "western" LAX league would gain an autobid: but another upper Midwest partner would be needed (like NDSU, Minnesota, Northern Iowa or even Northwestern).

[MplsBison]

You're confusing revenue producing vs money making. For me to claim LAX would make money, is more than a stretch. To claim that it would produce significant revenue (far exceeding women's volleyball, women's hockey, etc), would not be a stretch whatsoever. The problem with adding LAX but not dropping another men's sport, is then another women's sport has to be added, effectively doubling the expense without increase revenue. (Two possible women's revenue sports for UND: women's synchronized skating would possibly be revenue producing at UND - women who don't normally watch sports would flock to it, and women's beach volleyball using the Hyslop for a sand venue.)

The main problem with the LAX structure is that UND would really need a travel partner. Most schools play two games on a weekend. When teams fly to Colorado, they have Denver and Air Force back to back. Ohio State next year will have Bellarmine as a travel partner. One other school in the Upper Midwest or even Chicago would have to partner with UND. Those four schools will now be part of the ECAC, which would want to kick them out anyway. A six team "western" LAX league would gain an autobid: but another upper Midwest partner would be needed (like NDSU, Minnesota, Northern Iowa or even Northwestern).

Ok...so you're advocating that UND drop baseball, which will have an auto-bid conference in the Summit, so that you can add lacrosse which will be independent with Denver and Ohio State being the closest opponents.

What was that about revenue again?

[star2city]

Ok...so you're advocating that UND drop baseball, which will have an auto-bid conference in the Summit, so that you can add lacrosse which will be independent with Denver and Ohio State being the closest opponents.

What was that about revenue again?

So where's the baseball revenue, again? Still looking for it.

If UND had a domed stadium for baseball, I would most definitely advocate baseball. But it doesn't. UND does however, have a domed stadium that is perfectly sized for lacrosse.

A perfect facility, a hockey culture, a tailgate culture, Canadian influence, Indian influence, UND's desire for progressiveness and single-sport excellence, growth opportunities, recruiting opportunities, Alerus' needs for events, opportunity to be associated with top-notch schools: all of these intersect with UND and lacrosse. None of them intersect with UND and baseball.

Any pre-conference baseball would be on the road with flights and multiple night hotel room expenses in the south. Basically no revenue generated except maybe a minor travel allowance to a major school. In the Summit, even a home game with NDSU would basically offer no revenue and hardly cause much excitement.

Travel isn't exactly easy either:

Oral Roberts - fly

Southern Utah - fly

South Dakota State

Centenary - fly

North Dakota State

Oakland - fly

Western Illinois - maybe bus

IPFW - fly

Baseball's travel expenses would be higher as most games would be away. Baseball revenue from tickets basically would be nil.

A lacrosse autobid conference of

Ohio State

Bellarmine

Denver

Air Force

UND

+ someone else

would create a lot more interest, have a decent home field, with March and April night and weekend games at the Alerus.

Baseball: average of maybe 400 non-paying people for maybe 10 home games (road games the norm) and huge road expenses

Lax: average maybe 1500-2000/game for seven home games. Outside chance at 3-4000 people with a name opponent.

[MplsBison]

I think that would be a bit high for lacrosse attendance. Maybe you're right, who knows?

Look, I already said that UND should add lacrosse if you think that's good for the athletic program. Eventually, all 50 states will have it as an official high school sport, it seems. NDSU should probably evaluate the opportunity as well, at least for a women's team to balance out FBS football if it came to that.

Also, big schools do pay for baseball games. I know NDSU gets guarantees for games vs. Big 12 teams, anyway. Don't remember the number but it's probably enough to pay for travel at least.

I still don't see where you've made a legitimate case for dropping baseball.

There's also the (remote) possibility that the NCAA will eventually expand the season deeper into the summer, giving northern teams more legitimate chances for home games to generate revenue.

[82SiouxGuy]

I think that would be a bit high for lacrosse attendance. Maybe you're right, who knows?

Look, I already said that UND should add lacrosse if you think that's good for the athletic program. Eventually, all 50 states will have it as an official high school sport, it seems. NDSU should probably evaluate the opportunity as well, at least for a women's team to balance out FBS football if it came to that.

Also, big schools do pay for baseball games. I know NDSU gets guarantees for games vs. Big 12 teams, anyway. Don't remember the number but it's probably enough to pay for travel at least.

I still don't see where you've made a legitimate case for dropping baseball.

There's also the (remote) possibility that the NCAA will eventually expand the season deeper into the summer, giving northern teams more legitimate chances for home games to generate revenue.

One difference between UND and NDSU regarding baseball is that Fargo seems to be more of a baseball town than Grand Forks. Grand Forks tried 2 different minor league baseball teams in recent memory and neither worked while the Red Hawks seem to be doing very well. So there is probably a bigger audience for college baseball. Of course the stadium helps. Newman is much nicer than Kraft Field.

[MplsBison]

Like you already said, Newman is actually one of the nicer stadiums in DI baseball.

But..again...it's all about when the games are played.

Warm summer night = people will come to the ball park. Dreary, rainy may night = no.

[82SiouxGuy]

Like you already said, Newman is actually one of the nicer stadiums in DI baseball.

But..again...it's all about when the games are played.

Warm summer night = people will come to the ball park. Dreary, rainy may night = no.

That's true. But the minor league teams that were in Grand Forks couldn't get anyone to the ballpark all summer.

[Smoggy]

That's true. But the minor league teams that were in Grand Forks couldn't get anyone to the ballpark all summer.

IIRC attendance wasn't the issue. The league was.

[82SiouxGuy]

IIRC attendance wasn't the issue. The league was.

I think that the league was part of the issue with one of the teams. I don't remember numbers for sure, but I don't think either team did well in attendance. For some reason I think that one of them averaged around 4-500 per game. I remember sitting in the stands on a beautiful Sunday afternoon and there was hardly anyone there. I would be surprised if they had more than 300 at that game.

[Matt]

Lax: average maybe 1500-2000/game for seven home games. Outside chance at 3-4000 people with a name opponent

Not saying its wrong, but I have no idea how this number is calculated. Has there been a LAX game in ND that drew these numbers in the past?

[MplsBison]

Have there been lacrosse games in North Dakota period? Like, official ones.

[star2city]

Not saying its wrong, but I have no idea how this number is calculated. Has there been a LAX game in ND that drew these numbers in the past?

Potential attendance was actually discussed much earlier in this thread.

When the Minnesota Swarm started in MSP, there hadn't been lacrosse games there either (the Swarm started before the MHSAA sanctioned lacrosse). The Swarm attendance has always been above 10,000 even before LAX became a HS rage in MSP (and it may have helped fuel LAX there).

Buffalo 143,581 8 17,947

Colorado 131,800 8 16,475

Toronto 111,372 8 13,921

Minnesota 98,465 8 12,308

Philadelphia 84,299 8 10,537

Calgary 83,189 8 10,398

UND attendance is generally 15% of MSP pro team/Gopher attendance (hockey excluded). (search the board for the full comparison)

In the UND Lacrosse Poll, almost 10% of poll respondents in the hockey forum say they would buy season tickets. With about 7000 season tickets sold for hockey (not including students), perhaps 700 season tickets would be sold for lacrosse. With student getting in free, inexpensive single-game tickets for the curious and budget-minded, with decent advertising (during hockey and football), a band, and tailgating, 1500 isn't unreasonable and could be low. If lax created a buzz, becoming a locally "in" event, 3-4000 could almost be normal. In Grand Forks, people support UND events as long as it fun and entertaining and out of the weather. Late March and April is perfect for games, as the weather is still bad and there's few other entertainment or outdoor options.

Also since likely half of Siouxsports posters don't live in the GF area, the sampling potentially underestimates season ticket buyers.

[The Sicatoka]

Have there been lacrosse games in North Dakota period? Like, official ones.

I'd call UMLL games, which is part of MCLA, official.

[MplsBison]

I guess I would call NCAA or NAIA official.

[Matt]

I'd call UMLL games, which is part of MCLA, official.

I'd say this program needs an upgrade pronto! Losing to NDSU and Moorhead 15-0 and 17-1?

[The Sicatoka]

I guess I would call NCAA or NAIA official.

Then the Bison club hockey titles in the 1980s aren't "official".

And actually, NDSU football would only have five titles if only NCAA titles are "official".

[The Sicatoka]

I'd say this program needs an upgrade pronto!

It's a club program. The student who started it was very passionate. I'm sure he's since graduated. Who took over I'm not sure.

You need a passionate advocate to make any program work.

[MplsBison]

Then the Bison club hockey titles in the 1980s aren't "official".

And actually, NDSU football would only have five titles if only NCAA titles are "official".

I actually don't have a problem saying that NDSU has only 5 official football titles.

Our run in the 1980's through the early 1990's is still very significant on its own, even disregarding the rest of NDSU football history.

[star2city]

Concordia-Wisconsin adding Lacrosse

Tony Hrkac's school is adding men's and women's lacrosse, becoming second Wisconsin school with LAX (granted, at the DIII level - another Wisconsin Lutheran college, Carthage, was the first). There had been rumors that Minnesota schools like St. John's and St. Thomas would consider lacrosse if a sufficient number of schools in the region sponsored it.

Concordia University-Wisconsin will offer NCAA Division III men's and women's varsity lacrosse beginning in the spring of 2011, according to CUW Director of Athletics Dr. Rob Barnhill.

"Lacrosse has become increasingly popular in high schools and clubs in the Midwest over recent years. We believe that there is sufficient interest from prospective student athletes to support lacrosse at Concordia University and this growth is consistent with strategic campus initiatives. Because NCAA lacrosse is played in the spring, we felt this sport would be a good fit and would complement our current athletic offerings and facilities."

Minnesota HS Lax stars head east to Syracuse, Hopkins

[star2city]

Denver U just made a play to become a major power in lacrosse. DU apparently gained the Bill Parcells of college lacrosse, by hiring the Princeton coach. Some interesting comments in theBaltimore Sun blog here :

This is not just another coaching change.

Can you imagine how many times a school has asked Princeton

[MplsBison]

[siouxkid12]

One difference between UND and NDSU regarding baseball is that Fargo seems to be more of a baseball town than Grand Forks. Grand Forks tried 2 different minor league baseball teams in recent memory and neither worked while the Red Hawks seem to be doing very well. So there is probably a bigger audience for college baseball. Of course the stadium helps. Newman is much nicer than Kraft Field.

Part of your statement is true, Grand Forks only had one minor league baseball team (Varmits) while the other team you are thinking of is the ChannelCats, which was apart of the Northwoods League ( a summer woodbat league for D1 College Players), it is like the Cape Cod League. Pro baseball in Grand Forks will never work unless there is a new park built (and i doubt that will happen), Grand Forks is a hockey/football town.

[82SiouxGuy]

Part of your statement is true, Grand Forks only had one minor league baseball team (Varmits) while the other team you are thinking of is the ChannelCats, which was apart of the Northwoods League ( a summer woodbat league for D1 College Players), it is like the Cape Cod League. Pro baseball in Grand Forks will never work unless there is a new park built (and i doubt that will happen), Grand Forks is a hockey/football town.

I knew that the Channel Cats were in the Northwoods Leage and it was a college league Cape Cod only probably not quite as good of quality. Many of the best prospects play in the Cape Cod. My point was that there were 2 efforts to have independent summer baseball teams in town that were higher level than the schools or legion teams and neither one did well at the box office. I should have been more explicit in my description.

Pro baseball would definitely need a new park, and probably a large benefactor to pay for that park. Pro baseball did work in Grand Forks for many years. The Grand Forks Chiefs were a member of an earlier form of the Northern League. They were a minor league team for several different major league teams from the 1930s to the early 60s. The best known player to play for the Chiefs was probably baseball Hall of Famer Willie Stargell. He hit 11 home runs and batted .260 for the 1960 Chiefs.