Lacrosse at a "DI" UND?

[star2city]

Army Edges Irish in First D-I Game in Minnesota (Fall Exhibition Season)

Oct. 12, 2008

BLAINE, Minn. - Lacrosse has arrived in a big way in Minnesota.

A huge turnout of players and fans Saturday for what Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty dubbed "Lacrosse Day in Minnesota," highlighted by the first NCAA Division I men's lacrosse game in the state's history, only reinforced that reality.

Thanks in part to the vision of new Minnesota Swarm owners John and Andy Arlotta, the eventful day reached its apex when Army edged Notre Dame, 9-8, in double overtime before an announced 5,041 fans at the National Sports Complex in Blaine, Minn.

UM-D seems ahead of the curve:

Saturday dawned with a beautiful early fall sun over the National Sports Complex, as the Hot Dish Classic kicked off with a scrimmage between Notre Dame and the University of Minnesota Duluth. "This is our first NCAA Division I experience, and it's a terrific way for our kids to see how they match up against some of the best lacrosse players in college," said Bulldogs head coach Rob Graff, whose club team competes in the MCLA.

With numerous high school and middle school lacrosse games being played throughout the sports complex in conjunction with the event, the Fighting Irish and Bulldogs set the tone for lacrosse at its highest level in the main stadium throughout the day. Andy Arlotta summed it up best: "As the new owners of the Swarm, we want to help support the growth of lacrosse throughout the state. Our objective is to bridge the gap between indoor and outdoor lacrosse...It's all lacrosse, and we're thrilled to help make it happen."

"Lacrosse Day in Minnesota" included the aforementioned coaches clinic, youth clinics hosted by Army and the Swarm, four college lacrosse contest (UMD-Notre Dame, UMD-Army, Notre Dame-Army scrimmage, Notre Dame-Army game) and an autograph session.

[star2city]

Sports Executive Dave Checketts on Ambition, Passion and 'Difficult People'

Checketts has been President/CEO of the Utah Jazz, NYRangers/Knicks, and now is part owner of the St Louis Blues and the Real Salt Lake MLS team.

What's next? "I think lacrosse is going to be a major league sport in the next decade," he predicted. "It's high-action, it's a good television sport, and there's a very passionate following already. Plus we're building all these soccer stadiums -- they're the perfect place to play lacrosse."

Though built without lax in mind, the Alerus Center as is would be the premier college lacrosse facility in the country.

Isn't UND an entrepreneurial school?

Checketts called sports "the ultimate human capital business." It is important to have a great arena, good concessions, convenient parking and nice suites, but if you have a team that can't compete, he said, you have no chance of doing well. At the same time, he added, it's not all about hiring talent. "The world loves talent, but it pays off on character.... As a leader, it becomes your challenge to be able to identify people who at a certain point in time rise to the occasion." This is a great time for leaders to emerge, "the opportunities for you are going to be incredible," he suggested to the audience. "If you're looking for perhaps a real safe opportunity, steady salary, great job -- those may be harder to find, but the opportunities for people who are entrepreneurial will be there."

Replace the words Boise/BSU with Grand Forks/UND, NLL with NCAA lacrosse, Qwest Arena with Alerus Center, box with field, and the shoe fits:

What it may lack in lacrosse-specific interest, Boise more than makes up for in general sports fanaticism. To call the city rabid about Boise State football would not be a stretch. Despite playing against competition that those in the SEC, Big 12 and Big Ten would (and do) scoff at, a ticket to a Broncos game is a tough find. And despite its relatively remote geographic location, BSU fans travel very well to other WAC schools.

It's no secret that the NLL succeeds on the strength of its Canadian players and coaches. ... Relative to current stateside teams, Boise is a stone's throw from the indoor hotbeds in Canada's western provinces and would provide an easy commute.

Qwest Arena is a great place to watch just about any sporting event, as even the farthest reaches of the barn feel right on top of the action. ... Most of the Edmonton coaches and players raved about the venue simply because there was a hotel attached to the arena, making it an easy commute to practice.

[MplsBison]

OK I'll bite.

Why would the Alerus be a better Lacrosse facility than say, the Carrier dome?

[star2city]

OK I'll bite.

Why would the Alerus be a better Lacrosse facility than say, the Carrier dome?

Smaller, louder, newer.

[star2city]

Wall Street Journal: Lacrosse Muscles Its Way West

Indeed, the game has steadily migrated as former players and coaches moved West. Lacrosse Magazine says that of the 2,427 men's lacrosse players on D-I rosters in 2009, 118 players came from five key Western states: California (55); Colorado (37); Washington (13); (Arizona (9) and Oregon (4.)

"The game has just exploded in the three years that I've lived in San Diego," says Dave Herman, the varsity boys' lacrosse coach at Francis Parker School in San Diego.

Texas High School Lacrosse gaining national attention

New Orleans Times-Picayune: Lacrosse gaining traction in Louisiana

Utah HS Lacrosse growing rapidly

[The Sicatoka]

The game is growing.

It's growing in areas that UND needs to attact student from.

[star2city]

The game is growing.

It's growing in areas that UND needs to attact student from.

The star player in the championship game for Cornell went to school at Holy Angels in Richfield (or is it Bloomington?).

[MplsBison]

The star player in the championship game for Cornell went to school at Holy Angels in Richfield (or is it Bloomington?).

Richfield.

[mksioux]

The game is growing.

It's growing in areas that UND needs to attact student from.

Exactly. The lacrosse movement in this country is starting to become undeniable to anyone who is paying attention.

[MplsBison]

How many state high school sports associations sponsor official lacrosse state championships?

I know North Dakota doesn't yet.

[star2city]

How many state high school sports associations sponsor official lacrosse state championships?

I know North Dakota doesn't yet.

Possibly more than half the states:

Florida to Maine, + Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, Minnesota, Texas, California, Oregon, Washington, Colorado: not sure about Idaho, Utah, Arizona, Indiana, Kentucky

UND started hockey more than 15 years before the NDHSAA sanctioned the sport.

Opportunity knocks in men's college lacrosse because of Title IX considerations, especially for any school west of the Appalachians (only sponsor it: Ohio St, Notre Dame, Denver, Air Force, Detroit, Bellarmine) where so much of the lacrosse growth is.

Adding men's lacrosse is about

being ahead of the curve,

being progressive as a university,

attracting students that wouldn't otherwise come here (walk ons/partial scholarships from West Coast, Intermountain, Twin Cities, Canadian athletes),

offering a sport that could provide revenue with existing facilities,

offering a sport that few athletes in the West or Midwest have access to.

In a number of Olympic sports, UND will never have any real chance. In lacrosse, UND could struggle at the beginning, but at least some fans (especially students and transplants) would get into it and UND would have a springtime showcase sport.

[82SiouxGuy]

Possibly more than half the states:

Florida to Maine, + Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, Minnesota, Texas, California, Oregon, Washington, Colorado: not sure about Idaho, Utah, Arizona, Indiana, Kentucky

UND started hockey more than 15 years before the NDHSAA sanctioned the sport.

Opportunity knocks in men's college lacrosse because of Title IX considerations, especially for any school west of the Appalachians (only sponsor it: Ohio St, Notre Dame, Denver, Air Force, Detroit, Bellarmine) where so much of the lacrosse growth is.

Adding men's lacrosse is about

being ahead of the curve,

being progressive as a university,

attracting students that wouldn't otherwise come here (walk ons/partial scholarships from West Coast, Intermountain, Twin Cities, Canadian athletes),

offering a sport that could provide revenue with existing facilities,

offering a sport that few athletes in the West or Midwest have access to.

In a number of Olympic sports, UND will never have any real chance. In lacrosse, UND could struggle at the beginning, but at least some fans (especially students and transplants) would get into it and UND would have a springtime showcase sport.

It would be nice to have some numbers to see what it would cost for coaches, uniforms, equipment and travel. If it had a chance to cash flow after a few years, or even come close, it would make a lot of sense. If it is going to be a large money drain then it probably wouldn't make sense in the next few years because of the transition to D 1 and the increasing costs for that.

[The Sicatoka]

It would be nice to have some numbers to see what it would cost for coaches, uniforms, equipment and travel. If it had a chance to cash flow after a few years, or even come close, it would make a lot of sense. If it is going to be a large money drain then it probably wouldn't make sense in the next few years because of the transition to D 1 and the increasing costs for that.

Well 'Guy (it's OK if I call you 'Guy, right? ),

Ask and you shall receive.

Posts 23, 31, and 40 in the Lacrosse Poll thread talk costs.

star2city and I (and we've never met) are two of the first to bring up the notion here. I like what it could do for UND's national championship cabinet after a decade or so , recruiting in the US and Canada (2nd nat'l sport), and Alerus Center in the spring. star sees how it would tie UND to some ACC and other eastern "name" schools and could be a sport that UND could be a recognized power in in little time. We both agree that UND has facilities issues for the spring sports (baseball, softball) and The Al solves that for lax.

Some philosophy (from each of us) and background can be found in the first few pages of the linked thread and this one.

[82SiouxGuy]

Well 'Guy (it's OK if I call you 'Guy, right? ),

Ask and you shall receive.

Posts 23, 31, and 40 in the Lacrosse Poll thread talk costs.

star2city and I (and we've never met) are two of the first to bring up the notion here. I like what it could do for UND's national championship cabinet after a decade or so , recruiting in the US and Canada (2nd nat'l sport), and Alerus Center in the spring. star sees how it would tie UND to some ACC and other eastern "name" schools and could be a sport that UND could be a recognized power in in little time. We both agree that UND has facilities issues for the spring sports (baseball, softball) and The Al solves that for lax.

Some philosophy (from each of us) and background can be found in the first few pages of the linked thread and this one.

Thanks for the info. I have been following the LAX discussion from the beginning and I like the idea. But I must have missed the numbers, or forgot about them. They aren't bad for a new team sport. I think that you're right about having some potential as a spectator sport. I'm sure that the Alerus Center would love that. It is definitely worth exploring further.

[Shawn-O]

I really like the idea as well and hope to see it explored further...on the condition that the program could be funded through diverting scholarships from other spring programs or through gifts, endowments, etc. If it would trigger Title IX issues or require that a women's lacrosse program be started, then all bets are off. We already have one money shredding machine in the department, much less needing another one.

[GeauxSioux]

I have a nephew who is the captain of his lacrosse team in Colo. Springs. He will be a college freshman in 2010. Let's get the lacrosse movement going.

[Rick]

As much as I like baseball, I think Northern schools like UND would be much farther ahead if they dropped that sport and added LAX. I was out in Oregon last week and went to the University of Oregon Ducks baseball game against Arizona State. The Ducks have a very nice baseball stadium and they will be doing a major upgrade to it this summer. It will be the nicest baseball park in the PAC 10. But they are losing money. The Ducks have big money donors like Pat Kilkenney who's donating $5 million towards PK Park (baseball) and Nike's Phil Knight who is donating $100 million towards a $200 million basketball arena named after his late son.

Read the following link, it's quite interesting:

http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindducksbeat..._at_oregon.html

Here are a couple of quotes:

"Experts snickered at Kilkenny's assertion that Oregon would make money on baseball, which turns a modest profit at only a few warm-climate schools."

"And baseball is ahead of projections this season, losing about $200,000 but on track to turn a profit in five years rather than seven, Kilkenny said."

If baseball only turns a modest profit at only a few warm-climate schools, what chance does a school like UND have of getting close to a breakeven point with the sport? I wonder how much we lose on baseball each year? We could just as well give lax a shot since we already have the facility.

[82SiouxGuy]

As much as I like baseball, I think Northern schools like UND would be much farther ahead if they dropped that sport and added LAX. I was out in Oregon last week and went to the University of Oregon Ducks baseball game against Arizona State. The Ducks have a very nice baseball stadium and they will be doing a major upgrade to it this summer. It will be the nicest baseball park in the PAC 10. But they are losing money. The Ducks have big money donors like Pat Kilkenney who's donating $5 million towards PK Park (baseball) and Nike's Phil Knight who is donating $100 million towards a $200 million basketball arena named after his late son.

Read the following link, it's quite interesting:

http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindducksbeat..._at_oregon.html

Here are a couple of quotes:

"Experts snickered at Kilkenny's assertion that Oregon would make money on baseball, which turns a modest profit at only a few warm-climate schools."

"And baseball is ahead of projections this season, losing about $200,000 but on track to turn a profit in five years rather than seven, Kilkenny said."

If baseball only turns a modest profit at only a few warm-climate schools, what chance does a school like UND have of getting close to a breakeven point with the sport? I wonder how much we lose on baseball each year? We could just as well give lax a shot since we already have the facility.

Very interesting article.

Baseball at UND has no chance to break even. There are years, like this year, that they are lucky to play any home games. The only way they could have their own facility is if a deep pocket showed up to pay for it. I am a big baseball fan, but I have said before that dropping the sport should be on the table. Especially if there is another option that might make sense.

[star2city]

As much as I like baseball, I think Northern schools like UND would be much farther ahead if they dropped that sport and added LAX. I was out in Oregon last week and went to the University of Oregon Ducks baseball game against Arizona State. The Ducks have a very nice baseball stadium and they will be doing a major upgrade to it this summer. It will be the nicest baseball park in the PAC 10. But they are losing money. The Ducks have big money donors like Pat Kilkenney who's donating $5 million towards PK Park (baseball) and Nike's Phil Knight who is donating $100 million towards a $200 million basketball arena named after his late son.

Read the following link, it's quite interesting:

http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindducksbeat..._at_oregon.html

Here are a couple of quotes:

"Experts snickered at Kilkenny's assertion that Oregon would make money on baseball, which turns a modest profit at only a few warm-climate schools."

"And baseball is ahead of projections this season, losing about $200,000 but on track to turn a profit in five years rather than seven, Kilkenny said."

If baseball only turns a modest profit at only a few warm-climate schools, what chance does a school like UND have of getting close to a breakeven point with the sport? I wonder how much we lose on baseball each year? We could just as well give lax a shot since we already have the facility.

If Eugene, Oregon is disadvantaged geographically and weather-wise, what does that make Grand Forks?

There are 300 schools and the minor league system (which takes many of the best) competing for baseball players. LAX has six schools west of the Appalachians. Kids west of the Mississippi especially are practically begging for LAX opportunities. Either sport really requies an indoor facility in ND to counteract the weather. If UND was starting an athletic program from scratch (which is esssentially what needs to happen with the move to DI for all sports except men's hockey), which sports would it choose to sponsor?

"We are really disadvantaged geographically," Kilkenny said. "We are disadvantaged -- people talk about diversity. I don't think they talk about it enough. But it's a problem here, because the kids want to be in communities where they're comfortable.

"The weather is a disadvantage. Whether people want to admit to it or not, it is. So we have to work harder, we have to work smarter and I think what we also have to do is recognize that the unique nature of our culture is about being innovative, being entertaining and exciting."

[star2city]

As much as I like baseball, I think Northern schools like UND would be much farther ahead if they dropped that sport and added LAX. I was out in Oregon last week and went to the University of Oregon Ducks baseball game against Arizona State. The Ducks have a very nice baseball stadium and they will be doing a major upgrade to it this summer. It will be the nicest baseball park in the PAC 10. But they are losing money. The Ducks have big money donors like Pat Kilkenney who's donating $5 million towards PK Park (baseball) and Nike's Phil Knight who is donating $100 million towards a $200 million basketball arena named after his late son.

Read the following link, it's quite interesting:

http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindducksbeat..._at_oregon.html

Here are a couple of quotes:

"Experts snickered at Kilkenny's assertion that Oregon would make money on baseball, which turns a modest profit at only a few warm-climate schools."

"And baseball is ahead of projections this season, losing about $200,000 but on track to turn a profit in five years rather than seven, Kilkenny said."

If baseball only turns a modest profit at only a few warm-climate schools, what chance does a school like UND have of getting close to a breakeven point with the sport? I wonder how much we lose on baseball each year? We could just as well give lax a shot since we already have the facility.

If Eugene, Oregon is disadvantaged geographically and weather-wise, what does that make Grand Forks?

There are 300 DI schools and the minor league system (which takes many of the best) competing for baseball players. LAX has six schools west of the Appalachians. Kids west of the Mississippi especially are practically begging for LAX opportunities. Either sport really requies an indoor facility in ND to counteract the weather. If UND was starting an athletic program from scratch (which is esssentially what happens with the move to DI for all sports except men's hockey), which sports would it choose to sponsor?

"We are really disadvantaged geographically," Kilkenny said. "We are disadvantaged -- people talk about diversity. I don't think they talk about it enough. But it's a problem here, because the kids want to be in communities where they're comfortable.

"The weather is a disadvantage. Whether people want to admit to it or not, it is. So we have to work harder, we have to work smarter and I think what we also have to do is recognize that the unique nature of our culture is about being innovative, being entertaining and exciting."

[Chief Illiniwek Supporter]

If Eugene, Oregon is disadvantaged geographically and weather-wise, what does that make Grand Forks?

Here's one quick thought on Pac 10 baseball: don't forget that Oregon can sell kids on the idea that they will play the top schools in the country twice a year. In our area, Missouri & Kentucky have that same advantage. But just a few miles away, schools like Illinois, Indiana and Iowa can't make that claim.

LAX has six schools west of the Appalachians. Kids west of the Mississippi especially are practically begging for LAX opportunities. Either sport really requies an indoor facility in ND to counteract the weather.

Northwestern, right in Chicago, hired an aggressive coach for their women's Lacrosse program and has won multiple national championships. This year they just crushed the competition in the national championship game.

Right now there are no rules with who can and can't play LAX. Granted, NU is a wealthy school for wealthy kids. But the old "east coast only" rule has been shattered and IMHO it won't be long until the game filters down to more and more public schools.

IMHO, it's a good candidate for women's expansion in that it requires very little in terms of new equipment and/or a field. If you've got soccer or football, you've got a field for Lacrosse.

[MplsBison]

What's the deal with no helmet's for women lacrosse? They were these stupid eye goggles and that's it. Can someone say gender inequality lawsuit?

If there's one thing I hate more than anything, it's keeping a stupid tradition around just because it's a tradition!

That said, if UND wants to add lacrosse, go for it. But don't do it at the expense of baseball. Not that I actually think there's any chance of UND baseball being cut.

There's a lot of baseball playing kids in North Dakota that won't get a chance at playing in the minor leagues, but might have a chance to play DI baseball.

[star2city]

That said, if UND wants to add lacrosse, go for it. But don't do it at the expense of baseball. Not that I actually think there's any chance of UND baseball being cut.

There's a lot of baseball playing kids in North Dakota that won't get a chance at playing in the minor leagues, but might have a chance to play DI baseball.

Right now, UND baseball scholarships are going to athletes from California, Oregon, and Washington that PAC 10, Big West, WCC and WAC schools pass on. Why not get close to first-pass lacrosse athletes from the West Coast/Minneapolis/Texas/Colorado/Canada (lacrosse powers like Syracuse, Virginia, N Carolina, Cornell etc may all recruit out there, but lightly).

Baseball would be a great spectator sport at UND, but in the summer.

As far as opportunity, NDSU would never cut baseball, so ND kids could always go there. Mary has DII and Mayville has NAIA, so it's not like real opportunities would be eliminated.

UND doesn't have men's soccer, tennis, or wrestling either, in spite of all the ND kids in those sports. Nor does NDSU have hockey, soccer, or tennis.

[MplsBison]

UND already has baseball.

Therefore the DI baseball opportunities for North Dakota baseball players would be decreased by cutting the sport.

There is no law against having baseball and lacrosse at the same school. I think all the lacrosse programs you list also have baseball.

[GeauxSioux]

UND already has baseball.

Therefore the DI baseball opportunities for North Dakota baseball players would be decreased by cutting the sport.

There is no law against having baseball and lacrosse at the same school. I think all the lacrosse programs you list also have baseball.

$$$ and Title IX.

If UND could have a sport that made money (or at least didn't lose it) in lacrosse versus a sure money loser, baseball, why not make the change??