UND Lacrosse Poll

[star2city]

Since this is a slow week, thought it would be interesting to see what kind of interest there would be among hockey fans to a UND DI men's Lacrosse team. UND could actually get in a decent conference:

Great Western Lacrosse League

Ohio State

Notre Dame

Butler

Denver

Air Force

add North Dakota --> permanent autobid for the Great Western Lacrosse

Most matches would be played on the weekends in the springtime, and UND could use the Alerus as a venue.

There's been quite a bit of discussion already here:

http://siouxsports.com/forums/index.php?sh...75entry128975

Positives:

Revenue potential

Affiliation with Big 10 / Pac 10 schools

Alerus has open dates in spring and needs more events

Proposed practice facility could be used - limited conflict with football

Athletes available from Canada/Twin Cities/Denver/Chicago/Seattle with otherwise limited scholarship options

With ~35 players on a team and only 12 scholarships- top players do not get full rides (so talent gets disbursed among more teams compared to hockey, football, basketball)

Getting walk-ons might not be as difficult as expected - most other lacrosse schools are private with large tuitions or public with high academic requirements

Would increase geographic diversity of students

UND would be a leader and trendsetter / not a follower - in this region

Fast growing sport

Northern location not harmful compared with other spring sports like baseball/tennis/golf

Generally appeals to hockey fans

Tailgate weekends in the spring

Negatives:

Money, money, money

Lack of local familiarity with sport

No local athletes

Startup costs

Recruiting / travel costs

Practice facility required before startup

Would probably require dropping other spring sports like baseball, golf, or tennis

Doesn

[WiSioux]

My cousins played lacrosse for their high school in Green Bay and really loved it. I know that the younger of the two was trying to look for a college with a team that he could play intercollegiatly on, but wasn't able to find one. I believe that he might still be playing club lacrosse at University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee. I was never able to attend a game, but I've seen it on tv some... would be neat to watch, but travel costs to other schools would be HUGE for a start up sport

[siouxguyinstpaul]

And it is the national sport of Canada

[dropTHEgloves]

I think it is a great idea but where are the nearest opponents? Travel would be pretty expensive

[hockey10]

I am from the East coast, and co-own a lacrosse camp in NY here are just a few stats for why lacrosse should be brought in:

Numbers from US Lacrosse Participation Study 2005:

In 1990 less than 12,000 players in the United States

In 2005:

186,000+ Youth Lacrosse Players

133,000+ High School lacrosse players

23,000 Division I, II, and III lacrosse players

Over 8,000 club college lacrosse players

150 professional lacrosse players

While the majority of varsity collegiate lacrosse programs are still located along

the Eastern seaboard, Lacrosse is expanding throughout the country at he

collegiate level. Teams from outside of he traditional Lacrosse hotbeds have

been experiencing great success.

In Women

[jloos]

I could be wrong, but I think Lacrosse was recently sanctioned as a high school sport in Minnesota, although I don't think there are many teams outside of the metro. When the Wild were on lockout, the Swarm sold a lot of tickets, I'm not sure how they are doing this year, but they are still playing at the Xcel Center.

I've never played the sport, but it looks like a lot of fun. Once I had a lesson on the rules, I would enjoy watching some matches.

[Sioux Hockey Fanatic]

The Swarm play in the same arena as the WILD, I don't know how difficult it is to convert the ice to turf but its basically the same field. AND the Swarm games are fun so I'm sure that a UND lacrosse team would be fun to watch too.

[The Sicatoka]

The Swarm play in the same arena as the WILD, I don't know how difficult it is to convert the ice to turf but its basically the same field. AND the Swarm games are fun so I'm sure that a UND lacrosse team would be fun to watch too.

That's "box" lacrosse and yes, The Ralph would be a place to play that.

However, the NCAA plays "field" lacrosse and you'd play that on the turf in Alerus Center.

[SiouxMD]

If you want to guage community interest in lacrosse...why not bring the SWARM to the REA for an exhibition game?

[BigGreyAnt41]

That's "box" lacrosse and yes, The Ralph would be a place to play that.

However, the NCAA plays "field" lacrosse and you'd play that on the turf in Alerus Center.

Never heard the term "box" lacrosse, always thought it was just "Indoor Lacrosse." And yes, that's what they play in the NLL (National Lacrosse League).

Field Lacrosse, though, plays on a soccer field, from what I remember seeing when watching games on ESPN. And since its soccer they play on either grass for field turf (astroturf, like at the alerus, isn't allowed for soccer....because the ball would never stop rolling). So I'm not sure if that would be allowed or if a football field would be big enough.

After checking the rulebook I found that the field needs to be 110 yards long by 60 yards wide. Alerus definitely as the length, but I'm not sure of the width, since a football field is 53.3 yards wide. It'd be close, but it would put the sidelines dangerously close to the walls.

After closer look, you need 120 yards long (including space beyond the endlines), which Alerus still has. But width needs to be at least 76 yards wide, plus bench area. Maybe you can vary the field size in Lacrosse like you can the rink size in hockey.

[hockey10]

Field lacrosse is played on Football fields at most schools that do not have a dedicated field. It would easily fit inside the Alerus Center.

[Cratter]

Never heard the term "box" lacrosse, always thought it was just "Indoor Lacrosse." And yes, that's what they play in the NLL (National Lacrosse League).

Indoor lacrosse is a version of box lacrosse played professionally during the winter not only in regions where summer lacrosse is popular but also in regions where lacrosse is rarely played in summer. It was intended to be less violent than box lacrosse, although changes in box lacrosse rules have reduced some of its violent play and a change in indoor lacrosse rules to permit crosschecking (hitting another player with the stick with one's hands apart on the shaft) have made it more violent. The chief differences between the two forms of the indoor game now are that indoor lacrosse games consist of 4 x 15 minute quarters compared with 3 x 20 minute periods in box lacrosse, and that indoor lacrosse players may use only sticks with hollow shafts, while box lacrosse permits solid wooden sticks.

[BigGreyAnt41]

So they're basically the same thing, but with slightly altered rule sets? That's strange...

[The Sicatoka]

Go here

http://www.manitobalacrosse.mb.ca/

and click on "Box" or "Field" for who plays what on where.

As far as floor size, The Al is (from what I can gather from 'net searches) 6 feet narrow to the diagram in the NCAA manual under Rule 1-2 that gives fields and standoff spaces.

Yeah, it'd be nice to have a few more feet of width, but from the NCAA mens lacrosse rules:

The administrative rules that may be altered by mutual consent of the competing institutions are 1-2, 1-5, 1-10 through 1-14-a, 1-15, 2-10 and 3-3.

Rule 1-2 is "The Field" outlining field size and standoffs, 1-10 is the bench areas, and 1-14a is limit lines. You just get teams to agree that they'll play there even if it's a few feet narrow. The provision already exists and I'm sure folks use it or it wouldn't exist.

Me? I'd cheat the non-benches side limit line closer in to make up some of the difference. The rest I'd narrow out of a 60 yard wide field.

Two yards out of 76 isn't "fret-worthy."

PS - Teams play lacrosse on traditional turf like The Al has. That "real grass or field turf only" requirement is for soccer only to my knowledge.

[The Sicatoka]

There was a recent story in the Bismarck Tribune about an arena football league looking at expanding in either Bismarck or Grand Forks. They cited the lack of spring sporting events in the cities as the reason to look at them for expansion. Lacrosse would answer that if the potential is really there.

Plus, lacrosse at UND would put some events into the Alerus Center in the spring (when it is really slack).

The table is a quick look at 2006 NCAA lacrosse season weekends (by Fridays) and what's at The Al and if UND's spring revenue teams (MH, MBB, WBB) are at home. I see dates where there is open field and no other UND sporting event going on in Grand Forks.

[TABLE]

[CAPTION] Weekend / Alerus / UND Team [/CAPTION]

[TR][TD] Feb 17 [TD] nothing [TD] MH v. UMD

[TR][TD] Feb 24 [TD] car/boat/RV show [TD] M/W BB (Thu/Sat)

[TR][TD] Mar 03 [TD] nothing [TD] MH v. MTU, NCC BB Finals(?)

[TR][TD] Mar 10 [TD] nothing [TD] WCHA 1st round(?), NCAA BB Regional(?)

[TR][TD] Mar 17 [TD] nothing [TD] nothing (MH Final Five)

[TR][TD] Mar 24 [TD] nothing [TD] nothing (MH NCAA regional)

[TR][TD] Mar 31 [TD] Home/Garden Show [TD] nothing

[TR][TD] Apr 07 [TD] car show [TD] nothing

[TR][TD] Apr 14 [TD] nothing [TD] nothing

[TR][TD] Apr 21 [TD] nothing* [TD] nothing

[TR][TD] Apr 28 [TD] nothing [TD] nothing

[TR][TD] May 05 [TD] nothing** [TD] nothing

[TR][TD] May 12 [TD] nothing [TD] nothing

[/TABLE]

* Ballroom hosting Sioux-Per Gala on 4/22

** A children's choir festival? You'd guess "ballroom" on that.

Where you see nothing and nothing in a row means there'd be an arena open and no other game in town. Seems like facility and date availability wouldn't be an issue.

Think the city leaders in GF would like people coming to town in the spring (like they do in fall and winter for football, hockey, and BB)?

EDIT - Rats. The table formatting didn't work.

[star2city]

I am from the East coast, and co-own a lacrosse camp in NY .

hockey10:

Sounds like we have are fortunate to have a wealth of lacrosse knowledge on our campus right now. Have you been seeing a lot of growth in the numbers for your lacrosse camp? How well would a lacrosse camp do if it was on the UND campus?

Its growing, with a facility like the Alerus Center to play in and even possibly holding some games outside at the old football stadium, UND has the potential to recruit plenty of players to play. I was recruited to play DI lacrosse but chose to go to UND for Aviation, and would love to be playing lacrosse right now.

Just curious, what schools made offers? Do you think other lacrosse-playing schools would welcome a geographically outlying school like UND? Do many Western or Canadian lacrosse athletes get scholarship opportunities at the mostly East Coast lacrosse schools? Do you think UND could average 2000 in attendance for a lacrosse season?

TIA, hockey10!

[redwing77]

Many times, lacrosse is held in converted hockey arenas. The Minnesota Swarm hold their games in, I believe, the XCel Energy Center. That's a pro lacrosse team, btw.

So, maybe they could hold their games either in the New Ralph or maybe even the Old Ralph?

[bigmrg74]

Field lacrosse is played on Football fields at most schools that do not have a dedicated field. It would easily fit inside the Alerus Center.

You guys get a few thousand in the Alerus for games and it will quickly earn a rep for having the most hostile arena for Lacrosse.

Yes, my ears still bleed from the time when I was there.

[The Sicatoka]

Many times, lacrosse is held in converted hockey arenas. The Minnesota Swarm hold their games in, I believe, the XCel Energy Center. That's a pro lacrosse team, btw.

So, maybe they could hold their games either in the New Ralph or maybe even the Old Ralph?

Let's try this a-a-a-a-again: The Swarm (already mentioned in the thread) play "box" lacrosse. The NCAA plays "field" lacrosse. You'd play "box" in The Ralph; you'd play "field" in The Al. Man, ya gotta read more closely; we covered this.

[hockey10]

Have you been seeing a lot of growth in the numbers for your lacrosse camp? How well would a lacrosse camp do if it was on the UND campus?

We finished our 4th year last year. Every year we have shown a 150% increase in campers. Expanded from one location to two, each holding over 300 a week for 4 weeks. We use 12 different fields (6 at each location). As for a camp at UND, I am not sure how well it would go over. As far as I know there are no high school teams in the area. I do think it could have potential to draw campers if the price was right (cheap). Our camp runs 9am - 5pm, we are just a day camp, and the main draw is....it is cheaper then babysitting! We get the serious athletes that want to move up to the High School level, but the younger kids are mostly there because their parents wanted them to learn a new sport and their parents dont want to see them all day during the summer. A cheap camp would be a good way to expose kids in the area to the game.

Just curious, what schools made offers? Do you think other lacrosse-playing schools would welcome a geographically outlying school like UND? Do many Western or Canadian lacrosse athletes get scholarship opportunities at the mostly East Coast lacrosse schools? Do you think UND could average 2000 in attendance for a lacrosse season?

I was recruited by Binghamton, Bucknell, Canisius, and Stony Brook. I think other lacrosse-playing schools are always looking to expand the sport. As for recruiting to East Coast schools, you will see nearly all from NY, Maryland, Delaware, Mass, and Pennslyvania along with the Carolinas, all of those states are hot beds for lacrosse. Maryland and Delaware consistantly have multiple High Schools in the top 10 in the nation. New York easily puts 2-4 team in the top 10 in the country each year. You wont see east coast schools tap into the west or canadian athletes too much, not to say they dont have good players up there. Denver has a couple from Canada on their team....they are preseason ranked 18th right now!

Lacrosse is an exciting sport to watch at the DI level. The moves and speed at which one can score is unparalled to any other sport. Shot speeds are in the 100+ MPH and the goalie has a chest protector and helmet on....no goalie pads! It is fun to go to the games and I am sure it could draw a crowd with enough press and possibly handing out quick reference guides to rules on the way into the Al.

[JESUS,family,rutgers]

Lacrosse,either box or outdoor, is a great sport. Here in New Jersey, lacrosse and ice hockey are booming. Not sure which is growing faster,but many towns and high schools are adding teams. Both versions of lacrosse are fun to watch,but the outdoor game doesn't televise well because of the size of the field. The only thing I don't like about the indoor National Lacrosse League is that there are too many goals scored--kind of like the problem arena football has. Here at Rutgers, when the college season is over the New Jersey Pride of Major League Lacrosse(outdoor lacrosse) comes in and uses the lacrosse/soccer stadium. I would assume that if North Dakota adds lacrosse for guys they will have to add a sport for girls too under Title 9 rules.

[hockey10]

I thought the New Jersey Pride played on Yogi Berra field out by his Museum, or do they just practice over at the Rutgers lacrosse fields? I went to see the National Championship at Rutgers great facilities they have out there.

[star2city]

After asking around on a lacrosse board, here are some costs with a DI Lacrosse team (adjusted for UND's situation):

Startup Costs:

Players Equipment: $27,000 (may get reduced pricing)

Team Equipment: $ 4,000

Game Uniforms: $ 12,000

Recruiting before: $25,000

Coach transition: $50,000

Total Startup $ ~120,000

Annual Costs:

Travel& Lodging $ 150, 000

Salary & Benefits: $ 100,000

Scholarships & R&B: $ 36,000 (for 2 out-of-state scholarships, later $216,00 for 12 scholarship)

Recruiting costs: $ 30,000

Alerus costs (?): $ 50,000 (?)

Est. Cost:: $366,000 (w/ 2 scholarship)

Est Cost: $546,000 (w/ 12 scholarships)

Revenue: 1500 average paying attendance: (1500 x 6 home games x $10/ticket) = $90,000 3000 (stretch) paying attendance: (3000 x 6 x $10/ticket) = $180,000

Benefits: 50 or so lacrosse players (including walk-ons) paying out-of-state tuition

(50 x $12,000 x 67%) = $400,000 in extra tuition to UND from lacrosse players who would otherwise not attend UND

In addition: In order for men

[redwing77]

star2city- It's really hard to argue with what you've posted. It's very informative, thank you.

The only thing I'd say is regarding swimming and diving. It would be a hard sport, even if no one here cares about it, to drop because they have something like 23 DII NC titles.

[The Sicatoka]

... 23 DII NC titles.

That should say "NCC." Neither the men nor women have won an NCAA title. (They've come close.)

As far as swimming, one of our guys recently broke his own DII record in an event.

http://www.fightingsioux.com/sports/mswimm...RELEASE_ID=4523

But the time he hit isn't an "A cut" time in DI this year (as far as I can find on the 'net).