D-II vs. DI-AA level of play

[spider]

How many scholarships was NDSU using in its first year of I-AA? You can hardly say they were the same D2 team that didn't make the playoffs the year before.

PS - Nobody cares about hockey!

[FargoBison]

If I'm not mistaken didn't NDSU finish top twenty something in there first year of DIAA. I believe just a few months earlier they couldn't beat UND or St. Cloud and didn't even make the playoffs in DII. Remember, that was just a few months, yes a few months earlier.. At that point UND would certainly have done just as well as NDSU. It is very obvious that the gap to DIAA is not nearly wide as most all ndsu fans want us to believe. From what I've read here, most UND fans agree that DIAA football is better than DII. UND fans just say that the gap is relatively small. There certainly is not this wide gap that Bison fans want us to believe. Once again you Bison fans should go back to your website where you get away with that kind of dribble.

Yes, NDSU did finish in the top 25 in their first year of IAA play but some of that had to do with a favorable schedule. NDSU played three cupcakes(Valpo, Montana Tech, Carson Newman) and if you give NDSU a schedule like they had this year I doubt they would be top 25. And also UNC's first year schedule was joke they did beat a decent Montana St team but 7 out of their 9 wins were against lower division teams or weak IAA schools. You give UNC the same type of schedule NDSU had this year and they wouldn't be top 25 as well. And I think if you give UND NDSU's schedule you will see a 6-5 season at best and no top 25 finish. Every team the Bison played besides Arkansas Monticello could beat UND and most would probably be favored over UND. I find it odd that all of Sioux fans think they can waltz right into IAA and be a top 25 team when currenlty your team didn't even beat a fully funded DII team all year long. How do expect to compete when your faced with a schedule with about 5 or more fully funded IAA schools in your first year right out of DII?

[Cratter]

Yes, NDSU did finish in the top 25 in their first year of IAA play but some of that had to do with a favorable schedule. NDSU played three cupcakes(Valpo, Montana Tech, Carson Newman)

You realize that the pollsters take that into account when they decided to include NDSU into the top 25 right?

And I think if you give UND NDSU's schedule you will see a 6-5 season at best and no top 25 finish. Every team the Bison played besides Arkansas Monticello could beat UND and most would probably be favored over UND.

And I think if you were to give NDSU Texas's schedule you would see a 0-50 season at best and no top 25 finish. NDSU has a scholarship advantage and so do those other teams in AA, so Duh those AA teams would be better.

I find it odd that all of Sioux fans think they can waltz right into IAA and be a top 25 team.

.

I find it odd that the almight AA division would be SO STRONG that a first year AA team would even come close to finishing in the top 25. (da bison)

How do expect to compete when your faced with a schedule with about 5 or more fully funded IAA schools in your first year right out of DII?

Three years ago what would a bisons fans answer been? Probably the same as a Sioux fans. We can go in this circle all night if you want.

[BigGame]

How many scholarships was NDSU using in its first year of I-AA? You can hardly say they were the same D2 team that didn't make the playoffs the year before.

PS - Nobody cares about hockey!

Man, you're in the wrong place to be saying that. Not to mention the statement is BS, considering way more people care about D1 hockey than they care about 1AA football.

[FargoBison]

First of all I said give the 1st year IAA NDSU and UNC teams this past years NDSU schedule and both would not have gotten their top 25 records they recieved in their first year. UNC was barely a IAA team since they only had maybe 4 more scholarships then they did in their last year of D2. Also according to the Sioux fans here the lack of scholarships doesn't matter UND would be top 25 their first year regardless. And what I'm trying to say is play a real IAA schedule like NDSU had this year or UNC had last year and you won't be top 25 you might not even be .500. If UND(DII elite) can't take on NDSU's schedule and finish better then top 30 it kind of proves that the gap is bigger then a small one. The gap may not be huge for UND(and a select other few D2's) but it is not small by any means.

[biff]

The whole thing is like two siblings who don't get along. This thread has turned into bickering. Leave out hockey, wrestling, and swimming and they're two programs that are very similar in terms of support, sucess and athletes. A former Sioux FB player told me that the only difference between a Bison and Sioux FB player is the color of their jersey.

On that note, I think the Bison won't play the Sioux for the same reasons the Sioux wouldn't play the Bison a few years ago, playoff consideration and spite. Bison need to be voted in for playoffs and strength of schedule is important. Doesn't mean there can't be games in other sports though. I can understand NDSU not wanting to get burned again, but I think they should have taken the high road, sucked it up, and put a few games on some schedules.

[FargoBison]

Man, you're in the wrong place to be saying that. Not to mention the statement is BS, considering way more people care about D1 hockey than they care about 1AA football.

Please, IAA football=NCAA hockey in terms of media coverage and popularity. Fight it all you want but it is true.

[FargoBison]

Do you really want to get into this debate? If NCAA hockey is so much more popular why are more IAA football playoff games on ESPN? Why aren't there any NCAA hockey games on national network tv? Give me a valid reason why what I said was so funny to you?

[FargoBison]

What you said is hilarious based upon the fact that you are a Bison zealot and can't look at this particular topic with any objectivity whatsoever. There are more NCAA hockey games televised nationally than D-1AA football, both regular season and postseason. D-1A football and big-time D-1 basketball (like UNC and Duke, not NDSU) are high profile NCAA sports. D-2 and D-1AA football are low-profile NCAA sports. Hockey is somewhere in the middle.

Well your a UND zealot and I don't think you have any objectivity to this topic as well. As for ESPN playoff games IAA football 5, NCAA hockey 3. And I think all but one or two of the IAA playoff games not on ESPN2 were on ESPNU. Also from what I have seen there are as many IAA football games on FSN, CSTV, and Comcast as there are NCAA hockey games. And really if nobody cares about IAA football why does NBC even bother showing the Bayou Classic every year? What makes hockey mid-level and IAA not? Only a handful of IA schools play it and the sport is really only popular in select parts of the country, football is popular everywhere. IAA football is made up entirely of DI teams while hockey is what half DI half non DI. I think it is hard to call NCAA hockey mid level and IAA football not when hockey needs lower level schools to survive. I know it is hard for you to admit but IAA football=NCAA hockey.

[BigGame]

Please, IAA football=NCAA hockey in terms of media coverage and popularity. Fight it all you want but it is true.

I hate to break it to you but you are wrong. ESPNU and CSTV show a lot of college hockey games throughout the course of the year, along with the games that are on multiple regional FSN channels. 1AA football gets it's playoff games on TV, but D2 had a game on as well the last three weeks of playoffs. If I want to watch a college hockey game on TV, I can do it almost every Friday and Saturday during the season. When the post season comes around, I will be able to watch the frozen 5 and frozen 4 tournaments for college hockey on the tube.

Does CSTV have a 1AA game of the week?

[BisonMav]

I hate to break it to you but you are wrong. ESPNU and CSTV show a lot of college hockey games throughout the course of the year, along with the games that are on multiple regional FSN channels. 1AA football gets it's playoff games on TV, but D2 had a game on as well the last three weeks of playoffs. If I want to watch a college hockey game on TV, I can do it almost every Friday and Saturday during the season. When the post season comes around, I will be able to watch the frozen 5 and frozen 4 tournaments for college hockey on the tube.

Does CSTV have a 1AA game of the week?

I would assume they would be close on the number of football vs hockey games on TV.

Every Saturday during the season I had a choice of 3-4 I-AA football games to watch. I probably saw 30 different teams play. I assume hockey would be similar.

[jdstewart]

As an indication of the relative merits of both, I suggest you look at the schools that play the sports and also the national championship locations, venues and attendance. I believe that being a national power in D1 hockey is much preferable to being a national power in 1AA football.

[FargoBison]

Yeah right, and the Bison have been dominating the Sioux on the football field for the last dozen years. Too funny.

All but one or two games of the D-1AA playoffs not on ESPN or ESPN2 were on ESPNU, eh? I wonder why they failed to show those one or two games. Every NCAA hockey tournament game not on ESPN or ESPN2 were on ESPNU last year. All of them. Look up the schedule of televised broadcasts on all of the networks that are available nationwide. This would include ESPN, ESPN2, ESPNU, CSTV, NESN, all of the various regional FOX SportsNet channels, and whatever else is available on the DirecTV and/or Dish Network sports packages. If you take the entire D-1AA football regular season and postseason schedule and put it up next to the entire NCAA hockey regular season and postseason schedule... you will find a significantly higher number of hockey games being televised. Why? Because NCAA hockey is more popular than D-1AA football. People talk about the hockey programs at UND, U of M, Michigan, Maine, and many others. There isn't one D-1AA football program that is on that level of national recognition. Not one. Who won the D-1AA title this past season, Appalachain State? Who are they? They're about as invisible as St. Cloud State and Augustana combined. You're right when you say few people nationally care about NCAA hockey, but what you fail to realize is that even fewer people care about D-1AA (or D-2) football. But if you want to continue living in your little fairy-tale world thinking NDSU football is big-time, knock yourself out. I'll continue to have a few laughs at your expense.

NCAA hockey > D-1AA football

Dave please tell me if no one cares about IAA football why were there 126 IAA games on TV this year, yes Dave 126. I have no idea how many hockey games were/are on tv this season but I am sure the numbers will be close. Montana, Deleware, Georgia Southern, the Ivies, and SWAC schools all have pretty good national recognition. Southern and Grambling State play a game on NBC every year(in front of a sold out SuperDome). ESPN college gameday was even live at the site of the game. And you know few may know that Denver won the hockey title last year, Denver is about as obscure a school as App St is. I didn't even know about Denver U until NDSU played them last year in hoops. And I don't know why you mention IAA and D2 in the same sentence because they are ways apart when it comes to media recognition and overall popularity. Also I never said IAA football was big time, just that it is just as big as DI hockey is.

[FargoBison]

No, it's only about as big as D-2 football... and that isn't as big as NCAA hockey. Sorry if that hurts your feelings, but it's the truth. On a level of national recognition, UND and NDSU are both somewhat known for their football teams. UND's hockey team gets more recognition than the Sioux and Bison football teams combined. I wonder why ESPNU would fail to show a couple of D-1AA football playoff games if it's so huge? They showed each and every game of the NCAA hockey tournament. If D-1AA football was just as big if not bigger than they wouldn't have deprived the viewers of that extra game or two after showing every game of the hockey tournament.

Dave, again don't compare IAA football and D2 in this discussion becuase the two don't belong in the same sentence. I am pretty sure D2 didn't have anywhere near 126 games on tv this year and also only one DII game is on ESPN2. The two are miles apart in terms of media coverage. Dave I still see nothing that is going to change my mind. IAA football=Hockey.

[aff]

No, it's only about as big as D-2 football... and that isn't as big as NCAA hockey. Sorry if that hurts your feelings, but it's the truth. On a level of national recognition, UND and NDSU are both somewhat known for their football teams. UND's hockey team gets more recognition than the Sioux and Bison football teams combined. I wonder why ESPNU would fail to show a couple of D-1AA football playoff games if it's so huge? They showed each and every game of the NCAA hockey tournament. If D-1AA football was just as big if not bigger than they wouldn't have deprived the viewers of that extra game or two after showing every game of the hockey tournament.

I'm not really sure how you are managing to equate D-II football with D-IAA football? Average attendance? Number of T.V. games? Average attendance of schools and alumni from each division? National recognition? All of these catagories point to D-IAA being much more popular than D-II. How many D-II schools have 23,000 fans per game? If you want an easy comparison just look at the number of members on any given saturday vs. D-II football.com. There is no comparison. Sure thats not scientific research, but I think you can get the general idea from it. Maybe in the future when you make claims like DI-AA football is only as big as D-II football you could actually come up with some sort of evidence to back it up. Remember that just say "sorry if that hurts your feelings, but it's the truth" doesn't make it the truth. In fact before I even read the whole post, I knew that was a lie or incorrect because that sentence was in there.

As for hockey's popularity, I think most UND fans are making an incorrect assumption. Everyone talks about being "D-I" and playing the big schools like minnesota etc., but when they say that they don't really talk about why that school is considered a big school. It's because of their D-IA football team, D-I basketball team, and Big 10 conference exposure. Those things are the reason you get excited about playing them, and being mentioned in the same breath as them. Think about it. Why are you more excited to play minnesota than Duluth in Hockey. A conference game maybe. More tradition maybe. But mostly because everyone has heard of minnesota, and nobody has really heard of Duluth. And why have people heard of michigan? Because of football, and basketball and Big 10 play. But Sioux Fans usually try and translate that popularity to hockey, which is incorrect. Hockey isn't a reason that minnesota has national notoriety, major sports are. Just because you play minnesota doesn't put you on the same level as them, although most schools are able to sell it off to their fans that way. Just because you play a big 10 school in hockey doesn't mean that hockey is popular around the country.

I don't know how you could even come to the conclusion that hockey is more popular from the simple numbers. How many hockey schools are their in the country? 60 or 70? How many DI-AA football schools are in the country? Over 100. What geographical area is hockey located in? The north of the country. What geographical area is D-IAA football located in? The entire nation. From just fans of the universities, D-IAA should be more popular. If you are talking about casual fan interest than I think that both of you are wrong. There is hardly any interest from so called casual fans of either sport. If you go most places in the country and ask them who has a D-I hockey team, I bet you money they can't come with much, or know almost anything about hockey. Go to Kansas and ask a person if they know what "icing" is in hockey. They will have no idea. But you're telling me that their is this great interest in hockey? Sorry, but most of the country doesn't have any idea. Same with D-IAA football. Ask a casual fan what teams are in D-IAA football, and the look you're going to get is WTF is D-IAA football. Even most fans in the dakotas still have no idea what the difference is. Just look at Argus leader articles in SDSU's move up. They were still talking about DI-AA basketball in the move up after SDSU had moved. And these are sports editors. But thats casual fans. If you're talking about hardcore, fans that will actually follow hockey and D-IAA football, then D-IAA has got to win simply from having more schools and more alumni following the events.

While I'm writing things that are going to get me ripped, can someone even tell me how hockey is considered a D-I sport? Correct me if I'm wrong, but their are more D-II schools than D-I schools in Hockey, aren't there? Shouldn't that mean that hockey is classified as D-II, and minnesota etc are playing down a level? I suppose that would never be allowed to happen by the bigger schools playing, but still, it doesn't seem right to me. It also seems rediculous that schools in the NSIC are capable of fielding a team in anything that is considered D-I. These schools aren't even able to fully fund D-II football, D-II basketball etc., but somehow they can be D-I in a sport? I'm sorry if it offends anyone, but Duluth and mankato are not on the same level as U of M, and shouldn't ever be considered in the same sentence. I understand that you have to have these schools to get a full division, but there has to be a better way. Maybe have more interdivisional games, and then keep teams in their respective divisions for championships. I don't know, it just doesn't seem right to me.

P.S. In a response, some please quote the part that says "I don't know" and write thats right, you don't, as if its the most clever response ever. Why respond with in-for-mat-ion when you can just attack the messenger. So much easier right?

[PCM]

Since my comment apparently sparked this pi$$ing match about whether DI hockey is more popular than DI-AA football (I don't believe for a minute that it is), allow me to restate my original point which some apparently missed: UND's DI hockey program attracts more attention worldwide and creates more publicity than any athletic program at NDSU.

[Bison Dan]

It's fairly common knowledge that the most popular sport on the campus of the University of Minnesota is in fact hockey. It's pretty easy to get tickets to a Golden Gopher football or bouncey-ball game, not so easy to get tickets to a Golden Gopher hockey game.

That wouldn't have anything to do with 60,000 seats for FB to 15,000 for hockey?

[snaggles]

I think most people have just the basic cable where you get espn and espn2 and FSN. You can watch a college hockey game every week on fsn and you can watch a high school hockey game on that channel during the week. So with my basic cable I will have watched about 10 high school hockey games on FSN and had the opportunity to watch 5 or 6 aa football games, what does that tell you? This weekend UND will play at UM in hockey which will also be on FSN. Someone mentioned how UND plays michigan and it's not a big deal because they are known for there football. Well, it is still exciting and it fills the place up with avid hockey fans. That is ironic because I heard Amy Ruley say how exciting it was to play the big names in women's BB such as Alabama, Georgtown and Ball St. Now tell me which one of those is known for their women's BB. Hect, I guess the Ball St. game was exciting that the bison played in, they had 400 people watching it. I did a quick poll and asked 100 people if they knew which state that aa football champs appalachain St. was located in. 99% had no clue, 1% said somewhere with mountains around. I then asked 200 people which state Denver was located in. The first 100 people I asked were from all over the country and 99% of them said colorado, and that they remember watching them against UND on ESPN. The next 100 that I asked were from ndsu. 99% percent of them had heard about Denver as they watched them on ESPN against UND in the HOCKEY CHAMPIONSHIP, but they didn't know what state they were loctaed in. Damn geography classes at ndsu. It's funny, nobody knows where apple st. is including myself. Seriously, what state is it in?

[aff]

It's fairly common knowledge that the most popular sport on the campus of the University of Minnesota is in fact hockey. It's pretty easy to get tickets to a Golden Gopher football or bouncey-ball game, not so easy to get tickets to a Golden Gopher hockey game.

Wow, I thought for sure that there were around 40,000 people per game for the gophers football, around 10-15000 for basketball, and 5000-12000 for hockey. Check the U of M site, its not hard. I guess all of those people don't know that gophers hockey is the most popular sport on campus. In fact, out of the three hockey looks to be the least popular. I can't believe I found evidence refuting your post, especially considering you had the proof of saying "its fairly common knowledge". It's probably fairly common knowledge in North Dakota that the U of M's most popular sport is hockey, but people actually in Minneapolis have different ideas I guess. Nice try though.

[aff]

I think most people have just the basic cable where you get espn and espn2 and FSN. You can watch a college hockey game every week on fsn and you can watch a high school hockey game on that channel during the week. So with my basic cable I will have watched about 10 high school hockey games on FSN and had the opportunity to watch 5 or 6 aa football games, what does that tell you? This weekend UND will play at UM in hockey which will also be on FSN. Someone mentioned how UND plays michigan and it's not a big deal because they are known for there football. Well, it is still exciting and it fills the place up with avid hockey fans. That is ironic because I heard Amy Ruley say how exciting it was to play the big names in women's BB such as Alabama, Georgtown and Ball St. Now tell me which one of those is known for their women's BB. Hect, I guess the Ball St. game was exciting that the bison played in, they had 400 people watching it. I did a quick poll and asked 100 people if they knew which state that aa football champs appalachain St. was located in. 99% had no clue, 1% said somewhere with mountains around. I then asked 200 people which state Denver was located in. The first 100 people I asked were from all over the country and 99% of them said colorado, and that they remember watching them against UND on ESPN. The next 100 that I asked were from ndsu. 99% percent of them had heard about Denver as they watched them on ESPN against UND in the HOCKEY CHAMPIONSHIP, but they didn't know what state they were loctaed in. Damn geography classes at ndsu. It's funny, nobody knows where apple st. is including myself. Seriously, what state is it in?

What that tells me is that you are watching T.V. in Grand Forks ND. Remember there are other places in the nation that have different channels. There are other people besides north dakotan's. Nice poll by the way. Why didn't you ask who the last D-I hockey champ was. I bet you get the same number of correct answers as that D-IAA champ. Oh wait, that great proof, people know where Denver is? I guess hockey is most popular. I mean thats why Denver is popular right? Hockey? Oh wait, most people have never even heard of the University of Denver, and just know where the city is. Why didn't you ask who the last hockey champion was? And where is this poll. I'm sure it is completly objective, coming from a Sioux Fan.

[sultan]

NDSU fans want us to believe that there is a lot more interest in the DIAA championship football game over the DII Championship game. The network puts the DIAA game on a week night. The DII National Championship game is in prime time on a Saturday afternoon. If the DIAA game meant so much to the network, it would be in prime time to. When are those bison fans finally going to realize that nationally DIAA football does not capture anymore interest than DII? (maybe less because of its time slot for their championship game).

[Cratter]

How about we call it a draw. DIAA=D1 Hockey.

[sultan]

How about we call it a draw. DIAA=D1 Hockey.

Did you mean DIAA Football=DII Football to the rest of the nation. I'm assuming that is what you mean.

[FargoBison]

How about we call it a draw. DIAA=D1 Hockey.

I can agree with that and I was never trying to say otherwise. I don't understand why it is such a big deal to some becuase if UND does go DI they will be very competitive in two sports that get decent media coverage.

Did you mean DIAA Football=DII Football to the rest of the nation. I'm assuming that is what you mean.

This on the other hand I can't agree with because it is simply not true. IAA has way more state flagships schools were there football team is really the only game in town, that means more coverage. IAA also has schools that are very well known across the country and also have great football traditions, DII does not. Comparing DIAA to DII in terms of media coverage and popularity is crazy because the two are miles apart. Like I said before IAA had 126 games on tv this year and had 6 games televised on networks that almost everybody in the country gets. DII had one game on such a network and I doubt if there were even 26 DII games on tv. Please tell me how IAA doesn't capture more interest then DII. IAA schools also play with IA schools all the time and that gives IAA great exposure. DII teams for the most part only play other DII's and they also play only a regionalized schedule. Besides for a few teams DII is closer to D3 then it is to IAA.

[4siouxnow]

I can agree with that and I was never trying to say otherwise. I don't understand why it is such a big deal to some becuase if UND does go DI they will be very competitive in two sports that get decent media coverage.

This on the other hand I can't agree with because it is simply not true. IAA has way more state flagships schools were there football team is really the only game in town, that means more coverage. IAA also has schools that are very well known across the country and also have great football traditions, DII does not. Comparing DIAA to DII in terms of media coverage and popularity is crazy because the two are miles apart. Like I said before IAA had 126 games on tv this year and had 6 games televised on networks that almost everybody in the country gets. DII had one game on such a network and I doubt if there were even 26 DII games on tv. Please tell me how IAA doesn't capture more interest then DII. IAA schools also play with IA schools all the time and that gives IAA great exposure. DII teams for the most part only play other DII's and they also play only a regionalized schedule. Besides for a few teams DII is closer to D3 then it is to IAA.

you are wacko no way was there 126 games of IAA football on tv, there probably were 126 DI games on not IAA. The only IAA game on with 2 AA teams playing each other was the championship. Which is the same for D2.

Most sates do not have flag ships that are IAA they are DI, take Iowa for example UNI is still second fiddle to ISU and U of I It's basketball program even thougth plays DI and is successful at ocasionaly beating the other state schools, it is still not held at the same level.

D2 and IAA are at virtually the same level in respect for those that realy know about the quality of players ask many of the Coaches. I have. The big dif is simply the depth of talent, which is mostly because of the # of scholarfships.