USA vs. RUSSIA

[Sioux_Hab-it]

USA fans, if you want to get even with the Vancouver fans just stay away from the 2010 Olympics. I also hope that CBC lets Don Cherry give it to them on Saturday night but he has to be more careful about what he says after upsetting the Quebecers two years ago.

[THETRIOUXPER]

I will be cheering for the Canadian's on Thursday evening, regardless of the behavior of the Vancouver fans throughout the tournament towards Team USA. I'd like to see Toews get the gold, and I just can't see me ever cheering for the Russians. However, I do think Canada will have their hands full. IMO, this Russia team is the "team to beat" in this tournament. They've got 3 solid lines, and play a very solid game. They move the puck great on the PP, and hope Canada realizes that they need to stay out of the box.

As far as the US team goes, I think Kessel performed way under expectations in this tournament. That sounds funny, as he leads the team in scoring, but take away the Norway game, and the truth comes out. He's been one of the most selfish players I've seen, and has tried to do too much on his own. In all reality, that's been the problem with the majority of the Americans on this team. They failed to work as a team throughout the majority of this tournament. The chemistry has not been there. The US has been awful in 3rd periods throughout the tournament, and are lucky to be playing for a medal at all. I'm sure I appear to be biased when I say that Oshie and Gerbe have been the best two forwards in this tournament for the Americans. The statistics don't show it, but anyone whose followed this tournament has seen the impact these two players made in each game. 1 or 2 goals won't get it done against Finland, who will be hungry for redemption after the loss they had in the first game. In all reality, Finland probably should have won that game, or at least earned a tie.

Good luck to Team Canada and as always, go USA!

I have to agree 100% here, and said so last week. And, of course, I was publicly chastised for my opinion. Oh, well. I think I would add Fritsche to the list of forwards that worked hard, he seemed to be all over the ice as well.

[dagies]

Stayed up and watched the game last night. Was disappointed in the Sioux D who seemed to struggle last night. I wonder if the whole team was tired, as Kessel didn't show me much either.

Fritsche and Schremp were a blast to watch. I thought they were the most dynamic of the US players last night.

Didn't understand Sauer's griping about the crowd. The way I see it the Canadians and the US are rivals not much different than the Sioux and the Gophers. Throw the Badgers in there in place of the Russians and it's a pick your poison situation no matter which side you are on.

The Canadian fans picked someone else to cheer for, and Jack Johnson didn't give them much reason to change their mind after the US/Canada game.

I also thought the US took some cheap shots as the game wore down last night, and am not surprised the game degenerated. I'm sure the Russkies did the same, but I don't see the US as blameless.

I thought I heard that the Russian D would turn over the puck if pressured by a strong forecheck. Where was that? Not too many quality chances put on the Russian goalie either. If the US team had played better we likely wouldn't have heard much from the crowd anyway.

Can any player look more impressive without scoring points than TJ Oshie? OMG.

[TC_transplant]

As far as the US team goes, I think Kessel performed way under expectations in this tournament. That sounds funny, as he leads the team in scoring, but take away the Norway game, and the truth comes out. He's been one of the most selfish players I've seen, and has tried to do too much on his own.

Nine assists, three more than any other player in the tournament....selfish bastard.

[Siouxdonyms]

Nine assists, three more than any other player in the tournament....selfish bastard.

5 assists against Norway. As I said, take away the Norway game and the truth comes out. Rebound goals where he just happened to be the original shooter isn't him being generous. Move away fromt the stats page and watch the game.

[sagard]

5 assists against Norway. As I said, take away the Norway game and the truth comes out. Rebound goals where he just happened to be the original shooter isn't him being generous. Move away fromt the stats page and watch the game.

Bickering about the these players is just stupid. Kessel will improve by both shooting more often and also by passing more quickly. To call it selfishness is premature, I'd call it inexperienced at playing against players who can all skate and play at his level. I really think if he can play next year he will have a Parise like tourney and be the best player in the tourney.

Oshie was great all tourney. If either he or Kessel could have converted in either the Swiss or Canada games the US would likely be playing for the Gold.

[NDFlyer]

I really think this team lacked chemistry and that is the biggest reason for going home without the gold. It seemed to me like there were to many individual agendas and one on one play. This was more a team of all stars than a team assembled to win a gold medal. The 2004 team that won gold seemed to genuinely like and get along with each other and the result was gold. Everyone on that team seemed to know and play their role (example Stafford as a checker) and it worked to a tee. This team had the tools to win gold but to me it seemed like guys were more concerned with impressing the scouts in the stands rather than do what it takes to win. Oshie is the one guy who stood out to me as the total opposite of this, he did all the little things and if more guys played with the grit and determination that Oshie displayed this team would have won gold. Erik Johnson was the other guy who really stood out to me. I thought Lee and Chorney were a little out of their league against the Russians.

This sums it up. Good post.

I laughed when Bob MacKenzie said USA were "overwheming favorites." LOL! For a team with supposed offensive talent they scored 5 goals in the final three games; the games in which goal scoring was truly needed.

[mksioux]

Didn't understand Sauer's griping about the crowd. The way I see it the Canadians and the US are rivals not much different than the Sioux and the Gophers. Throw the Badgers in there in place of the Russians and it's a pick your poison situation no matter which side you are on.

I disagree. If that were the case, wouldn't the American fans have been cheering wildly against Canada last year? I didn't notice any of that. If there is a hated rivalry between Canada and USA, it is pretty much one-sided.

I think there is more than one reason why the Canadians in attendence hated team USA so much. Each person in the arena could have had a different reason for cheering against the USA. For some, it may have been political. For others, maybe it was the pre-tournament hype of team USA or Jack Johnson. But I think the biggest reason is that hockey has been the one thing Canada has had over their bigger, stronger, richer, more relevent, more confident, better looking neighbor to the south. Now that USA's hockey program is on the rise and is becoming consistently competitive with Canada, many Canadians probably are starting to feel threatened.

[sprig]

I thought I heard that the Russian D would turn over the puck if pressured by a strong forecheck. Where was that? Not too many quality chances put on the Russian goalie either. If the US team had played better we likely wouldn't have heard much from the crowd anyway.

THe US forecheck was certainly effective on Christmas Day a year ago. Was missing in action last night, except for in the second period, and then done mostly by the 4th line. When individual players try to do it themselves on every rush and turn over the puck long before they get it in deep, there is no chance to get the forecheck going.

I'd expect the Canadians to put much more pressure on the Russian defense than the US forwards did. Maybe the Russian D can handle it this year, certainly couldn't make much of a determination from last night. The Russians are good at turning an odd man rush, or other defensive mistakes, into goals.

Toews for gold, I don't like the Russian antics when they have the game won. I"d guess the Vancouver crowd will turn ugly if the Russians have a late lead and start their taunting.

Sounds like we'll get the bronze medal game on FSN tomorrow afternoon; sure wish they'd show the gold medal game also.

[tnt]

I really think this team lacked chemistry and that is the biggest reason for going home without the gold. It seemed to me like there were to many individual agendas and one on one play. This was more a team of all stars than a team assembled to win a gold medal. The 2004 team that won gold seemed to genuinely like and get along with each other and the result was gold. Everyone on that team seemed to know and play their role (example Stafford as a checker) and it worked to a tee. This team had the tools to win gold but to me it seemed like guys were more concerned with impressing the scouts in the stands rather than do what it takes to win. Oshie is the one guy who stood out to me as the total opposite of this, he did all the little things and if more guys played with the grit and determination that Oshie displayed this team would have won gold. Erik Johnson was the other guy who really stood out to me. I thought Lee and Chorney were a little out of their league against the Russians.

I don't think Chorney and Lee were any worse than any other of the defensemen. Erik Johnson was schooled at least 2 or 3 times, and Jack Johnson was out on the ice for many of the Russian goals. Chorney's big mistake was on the second goal when he let the defenseman go by him on the outside. Chorney could have pushed him further outside, but really the angle the Russian took to the net was not that great. Schneider pulled off the post too early to give the Russian the short side to shoot at. I think the Russian's can make a lot of people look silly, but a lot of times all you can ask is to make them take the outside and bad angles. Like I heard someone say, Malkin should be playing with Crosby.

[Cardinal]

JJ and EJ also played about half the tournament for the U.S. on the blueline, so those two wearing down late last night wasn't really a surprise.

[Canuck]

But I think the biggest reason is that hockey has been the one thing Canada has had over their bigger, stronger, richer, more relevent, more confident, better looking neighbor to the south. Now that USA's hockey program is on the rise and is becoming consistently competitive with Canada, many Canadians probably are starting to feel threatened.

That's a very fair assessment, although (and this might be semantics) I'm not sure 'threatened' would necessarily be the word. I may be oversimplifying, but it is obvious that, on our end, the U.S. is now our primary rival when it comes to international hockey. The fans have recognized that and decided that this would supercede any previous animosity for Russia or anybody else.

Do I have a problem with the booing, etc? Obviously not. Now, the 'US Sucks?' I certainly couldn't blame anybody for being offended or put off by that. Would I like to hear Canada sucks? Not really, even though I've already been subjected to a F--- Canada on this site. Having said that, when a Sioux nickname opponent claims they do not like hearing 'Sioux suck,' we are certainly quick to dismiss that argument, are we not? It's not personal, we tell them; it's just a game.

I think lost in all of this rhubarb about the fan behavior is the one-sided view of the game's final five minutes. Now, both teams must share at least some of the blame for how that game ended. That was not hockey. But if you truly look at those final five minutes from an objective point of view, the biggest reason for the deterioration at the end (cheap shots, etc.) was a simple loss of composure on the part of the U.S. players.

In many of those cases, clean hits by the Russians resulted in cheap shot retaliation. Don't get me wrong - there were certainly a few questionable hits, but nothing to warrant Schremp's blatant retaliatory cross check or Borque trying to trip the Russina goalie when (seemingly) no one was looking.

Were the U.S. players antagonized and goaded into this behavior? ABSOLUTELY. That was the Russian MO. However, Team USA should have recognized this LAST YEAR and learned from it. Of course, that is easier said than done, and as I alluded to in an earlier post, Canada has certainly been guilty of losing their composure in previous tournaments.

This turned out to be a little lengthy....sorry.

[Vegas]

USA fans, if you want to get even with the Vancouver fans just stay away from the 2010 Olympics. I also hope that CBC lets Don Cherry give it to them on Saturday night but he has to be more careful about what he says after upsetting the Quebecers two years ago.

I thought about this last night as well. If you really want to get back at them then simply boycott the Olympics altogether.

The one thing that everybody on this board has to understand is that B.C. doesn't really like anybody. To them, everybody else east of the Rockies are Eastern Bums. And the U.S.A. Sucks chants really started in the 70's when everybody in the rest of Canada used to say B.C. Sucks!

[jk]

Canuck, I just watched the end of the game again, and the chippiness started when Skille got taken out with the elbow, followed very shortly afterward, on the same shift, with someone running Porter in nasty fashion. Shremp's high stick followed. Right after Schremp went in the box, Oshie ran over the Russian defenseman, followed by someone trying to take Oshie out. You simply cannot expect a team that is both frustrated on the scoreboard and being subjected to cheap shots to not retaliate. Call it poor sportsmanship if the losing team starts the cheap stuff, but when the leading team does it they are asking for trouble. I wish there had been a Greene type defenseman on the US team to really even the score. Nothing cheap, just a little old time hockey justice.

Cardinal, save for a few shifts here and there, JJ, EJ, Lee and Chorney have each pretty much played half the minutes since Butler went down.

[Tsiouxnami]

I have sat back and read many posts on this site and finally felt the urge to get involved. . . . I have no problem with booing an opponent, heck, it's part of the game to some extent! I attended the WJ tournament in Grand Forks last year, and the thought never crossed my mind to cheer against Team Canada, but that was my choice. I do take issue with the fans consistently getting on Jack Johnson and blaming all the bad blood of the tournament on him. . . especially considering this all started before the drop of the puck in the USA/Norway game? Hmmmmmm, lots of psychics in Vancouver? Anyway, how quickly those fans forget . . . wasn't Steve Downie the one that caused a TEAM MATE to lose 4 teeth with a cross check to the face at PRACTICE??? In my opinion, the kid should NOT even have been allowed on the ice for Team Canada. Oh well, this really has nothing to do with this post. . . so here. . . . I too felt Team USA had a few too many with their own agendas to succeed in this tourney. (I guess I have to look to Walt Kyle for some of that, as that is the job of the coach to get players to gel??) TJ Oshie has played awesome all tournament, best player on the ice last night for sure, and the best part is he will only be better next year. Too bad we couldn't have had a team full of Mr. Oshie's - we'd have been the heavy favorites for sure!! Go USA - beat the Fins AGAIN!!! And, in the spirit of a good neighbor - Go, CANADA, Go!! (Sorry this is so long winded!)

[Canuck]

Canuck, I just watched the end of the game again, and the chippiness started when Skille got taken out with the elbow, followed very shortly afterward, on the same shift, with someone running Porter in nasty fashion. Shremp's high stick followed. Right after Schremp went in the box, Oshie ran over the Russian defenseman, followed by someone trying to take Oshie out. You simply cannot expect a team that is both frustrated on the scoreboard and being subjected to cheap shots to not retaliate. Call it poor sportsmanship if the losing team starts the cheap stuff, but when the leading team does it they are asking for trouble. I wish there had been a Greene type defenseman on the US team to really even the score. Nothing cheap, just a little old time hockey justice.

I don't disagree, believe me. When I played hockey growing up, I certainly had times restraining myself during situations like that. You can't control how your opponent behaves, but you can control how you behave.

The situations you mention, yes, I myself would have retaliated as well. But how about tripping the goalie? What was his sin? The player that Schremp two-handed? Near as I could tell, his biggest sin was either falling (or diving) as the result of a Schremp hook. So in those two cases, it wasn't justified.

I still think it's a matter of perspective. A few minutes earlier, when none of this had really erupted yet, I also saw Paukovich taking liberties with his stick behind the net. But it was away from the play and nobody noticed, or the announcers chose not to notice.

As I said, plenty of blame to go around on both benches. One could also blame the head coaches for seemingly doing nothing to discourage their players from behaving that way. Or even the official for not issuing a warning to both teams when it was clear that game was on the verge of becoming nastier.

Edited January 4, 2006 by Canuck

[AZSIOUX]

I have sat back and read many posts on this site and finally felt the urge to get involved. . . . I have no problem with booing an opponent, heck, it's part of the game to some extent! I attended the WJ tournament in Grand Forks last year, and the thought never crossed my mind to cheer against Team Canada, but that was my choice. I do take issue with the fans consistently getting on Jack Johnson and blaming all the bad blood of the tournament on him. . . especially considering this all started before the drop of the puck in the USA/Norway game? Hmmmmmm, lots of psychics in Vancouver? Anyway, how quickly those fans forget . . . wasn't Steve Downie the one that caused a TEAM MATE to lose 4 teeth with a cross check to the face at PRACTICE??? In my opinion, the kid should NOT even have been allowed on the ice for Team Canada. Oh well, this really has nothing to do with this post. . . so here. . . . I too felt Team USA had a few too many with their own agendas to succeed in this tourney. (I guess I have to look to Walt Kyle for some of that, as that is the job of the coach to get players to gel??) TJ Oshie has played awesome all tournament, best player on the ice last night for sure, and the best part is he will only be better next year. Too bad we couldn't have had a team full of Mr. Oshie's - we'd have been the heavy favorites for sure!! Go USA - beat the Fins AGAIN!!! And, in the spirit of a good neighbor - Go, CANADA, Go!! (Sorry this is so long winded!)

who are you and where is the ORIGINAL SIOUXNAMI?? or is this him but with a new spin to his name??very creative with your screen name if its not...

whats next TPCM or TDIGGLER

[Tsiouxnami]

who are you and where is the ORIGINAL SIOUXNAMI?? or is this him but with a new spin to his name??very creative with your screen name if its not...

whats next TPCM or TDIGGLER

[sagard]

But I think the biggest reason is that hockey has been the one thing Canada has had over their bigger, stronger, richer, more relevent, more confident, better looking neighbor to the south. Now that USA's hockey program is on the rise and is becoming consistently competitive with Canada, many Canadians probably are starting to feel threatened.

I'm really not buying this. I truly think it's all political. In hockey the US has beaten Canada once in Women's, back in '96 in Men's World Cup and the '04 WJC. Compared to the Russians who have routinely schooled them at the WJC and who owned them for 50 years in the Olympics. No way do they hate the US more than Russia due to hockey playing. Everybody rightly or wrongly hates us for going into Iraq, it's trendy and the Canadians are simply getting in line.

[mksioux]

I'm really not buying this. I truly think it's all political. In hockey the US has beaten Canada once in Women's, back in '96 in Men's World Cup and the '04 WJC. Compared to the Russians who have routinely schooled them at the WJC and who owned them for 50 years in the Olympics. No way do they hate the US more than Russia due to hockey playing. Everybody rightly or wrongly hates us for going into Iraq, it's trendy and the Canadians are simply getting in line.

They are used to getting beat by Russia, but not USA. They despise the thought of USA as their hockey equals. That was my point. I was trying to give them them the benefit of the doubt. But the more I think about it, you're probably right unfortunately.

[redwing77]

I'm going to run down things I've heard here and elsewhere and let's see how much is agreed and disagreed upon.

1. No chemistry

2. Kyle didn't adequately use his defensemen (EJ and JJ being on the ice too much, others who may have helped them stay fresh too little).

3. Kyle didn't adequately use all of his forwards. Playing one or two lines most of the time and the other lines barely at all.

4. Goaltending was a weakness -- Though I'm not so sure...

5. Selfish play -- Again, not sure about this. Selfish play and getting it done is one thing. Selfish play and not getting it done is another. I guess the term used earlier in this thread is "agenda"

My take on things? I'm not too impressed with Kyle as a coach. He has one of the best rosters in the WJC tourney and all he basically had to do is ensure that he balanced and rolled the lines adequately and build chemistry. The rest is just reminding the basics of the tourney game and learning which players play better together.

Edited January 4, 2006 by redwing77

[Siouxdonyms]

I'm going to run down things I've heard here and elsewhere and let's see how much is agreed and disagreed upon.

1. No chemistry

2. Kyle didn't adequately use his defensemen (EJ and JJ being on the ice too much, others who may have helped them stay fresh too little).

3. Kyle didn't adequately use all of his forwards. Playing one or two lines most of the time and the other lines barely at all.

4. Goaltending was a weakness -- Though I'm not so sure...

5. Selfish play -- Again, not sure about this. Selfish play and getting it done is one thing. Selfish play and not getting it done is another. I guess the term used earlier in this thread is "agenda"

My take on things? I'm not too impressed with Kyle as a coach. He has one of the best rosters in the WJC tourney and all he basically had to do is ensure that he balanced and rolled the lines adequately and build chemistry. The rest is just reminding the basics of the tourney game and learning which players play better together.

Lack of chemistry has been a problem with this team. But you look at the 2004 gold medal team, and the majority of those guys had played together for 3 years for Team USA in U18 tournament and WJC. I questioned goaltending from the beginning, but I think Schneider did fairly well. My only complaint is that he goes down too quickly, Canada and Russia both knew that, and exploited it. The majority of this team will be eligible to return for next years WJC. If we find the right coach for that team (as I agree with you that Kyle was the wrong man for this job), we could finish in the top spot.

[Siouxdonyms]

whats next TPCM or TDIGGLER

Personally, I like PCM2 or AZSIOUX2

[AZSIOUX]

Personally, I like PCM2 or AZSIOUX2

[tnt]

JJ and EJ also played about half the tournament for the U.S. on the blueline, so those two wearing down late last night wasn't really a surprise.

I agree. With Butler out and Niskanen and Mitera not getting as much ice time all the defense saw more than their fair share of ice time, especially the Johnsons. I guess my point was that it isn't and shouldn't be a surprise to have a glaring gaff against the Russians at some point in the game, especially seeing the ice so much. The same can be said of the Russian defensmen. Kessel had that one Russian mesmerized and a few were grasping for Oshie a couple of times and eventually needed to take a penalty. With that kind of offensive talent and speed on the ice, I'm amazed they don't get caught flat-footed more. Hopefully they'll be rested and ready to go against Finland and at least take a step forward with a bronze this year.