Spirit Lake withdraws support for logo

[LFSPRO]

How do you "work something out" with an ever changing minority that believes it represents it's majority?

[Diggler]

I'm not saying it would be easy, but if you don't even try it certainly won't happen. I guess I don't see how UND making an attempt to reach out to the tribes could be a bad thing. Should the tribes say screw you, UND can just go about their business and keep the status quo. If the tribes say ok, something could be worked out and UND would have this to support the name.

[mksioux]

With the tribe support issue taken out of the appeal process the NCAA's decision will stand on it's own merits.

[sprig]

WDAZ's report on the Spirit Lake resolution.

[HockeyMom]

WDAZ's report on the Spirit Lake resolution.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

UND has no mascot. If the Spirit Lake Nation doesn't refer to itself as "Sioux" why do they oppose the nickname?

[Diggler]

What should UND do to honor Native Americans? Cynthia Lynquist says UND should do this, but provides no suggestions on how UND can do this. This is one of the things that bothers me, many anti-name people have complaints like this but provide no possible remedies.

[IowaBison]

The tribe never passed a resolution yesterday.  It was an meeting by tribe members to discuss the issue.  A vote is expected on Friday.  The AP got their information wrong, the Forum reported it wrong.  UND officials do not have a response, because nothing has been done.  Also, next Tuesday there will be a meeting amongst tribal leaders to discuss the nickname.  You can trust my sources, they are from the top.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The general assembly passed the resolution, the tribal council is scheduled to vote on the issue on Friday.

If anything the AP got the story wrong (which I don't think they did for the above reason). I'd assume the story was written by a Herald writer as they have a very similar story on their website.

[mksioux]

What should UND do to honor Native Americans? Cynthia Lynquist says UND should do this, but provides no suggestions on how UND can do this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If we've learned anything in this mess, it's that words like "honor" and "offensive" no longer have any objective meaning. If someone says they are insulted, it is objectively insulting. Intent, apparently, is irrelevent. And so too is whether a majority of people would find something "honorable" or "offensive."

Having said that, I always enjoyed the American Indian dances before the games. Perhaps having more of them would honor? It's difficult to say these days.

[ScottM]

WDAZ's report on the Spirit Lake resolution.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In the clip they say they don't refer to themselves as "Sioux". So what's the problem if we use it? Don't they undermine their standing by disregarding the name?

Oh wait here's some info from their website:

The Spirit Lake Nation reservation was established by Treaty between the United States Government and the Sisseton Wahpeton Sioux Bands in 1867.

More whoops

Silly inconsistencies ...

[teamsioux]

I can't beleive that you guys think GF should deny a casino simply because of the nickname.

[IowaBison]

I think an assumption is being made the UND didn't do what the resolution requested.  Rather than quoting Longie, please quote the exact language in the resolution that UND didn't do.  This is an honest question, because I don't see any obligations of UND other than a "zero tolerance" policy toward racist behavior (which UND has done), "to begin the process" of a "cultural awareness course" (which is quite subjective).

Is there some other "agreement" I'm not aware of.  Again, an honest question.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Obviously the resolution doesn't refer to such an agreement; however, I can definitely see a quid pro quo arrangement.

People from the Lake Region (like me), non-native (like me) and native alike, have a lot of respect for Skip Longie and if he says there was an agreement I believe him.

[HockeyMom]

People from the Lake Region (like me), non-native (like me) and native alike, have a lot of respect for Skip Longie and if he says there was an agreement I believe him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think anyone is saying there wasn't an agreement, I would like to know what UND did or didn't do as part of that agreement.

[KnowtheFacts]

What should UND do to honor Native Americans? Cynthia Lynquist says UND should do this, but provides no suggestions on how UND can do this.  This is one of the things that bothers me, many anti-name people have complaints like this but provide no possible remedies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Diggler, this isnt just a response to you, so please dont take it as such..

What can UND do to honor Native Americans or American Indians (for that one person who thinks "Native American" refers to everyone born in America)?

Well when you honor somebody dont you even bother to listen to them? Now all of the Sioux tribes except Flandreau (which by the way is the smallest tribe). That is, the MAJORITY of the Sioux tribes have stood up to say we dont want UND to use the Sioux name.

Now some of you bring up the argument that the Sioux dont call themselves Sioux. They call themselves Lakota/Nakota/or Dakota. They are both. There are lots of tribes that have multiple references to what they are called. For example the US calls many natives in Arizona the Navajo. They call themselves Dine'. Does that make them less Navajo? no. Same goes for Ojibwe/Chippewa/Anishanabe just that one is what other people called them and one is what they call themselves. It isn't one or the other. It is arguing for a technicality while avoiding the issue.

How come in all of this scramble, American Indian Student Services, Native American Programs havent been consulted? The administration is perpetuating all of these false or incomplete facts and no one is bothering to ask for the whole picture. If UND really wants to honor the Sioux people they will do it with honor and respectfully retire the name. It's been too long and too many people have been ignored for this to just blow over with a new logo (which is what typically has been done) or some other act of appeasement.

What about all of those native american programs??? Well guess what Miss Hispanic American? Those programs were developed by.... Native Americans...IF you have a problem with other minorities getting less, then make your way back to ND, get some grants, and start some programming for your minority interests. Im sure UND will be glad to find some space for a Hispanic-American Center.

Its not like white administrators developed native american programming because they thought oh, how can I honor the Sioux??? Now you are asking, "how can I honor..." , but really, I think it is too late. You havent honored in the past and the only reason you want to do it now is to keep your "hostile and abusive" traditions alive.

I think the reason Spirit Lake is clarifying their position is so they can not be used as an excuse by the UND administration. Find another scapegoat.

Then what? "we change the name" and no casino, you lose your programming, tuition waivers, ....... Are you trying to threaten somebody?? Is that your way of being honorable?

well, I have lots more to say, but I also have a life so I dont have anymore time right now... later...

[Diggler]

In the segment about the Spirit Lake Resolution, Lynquist says that UND should get rid of the name and find other ways to honor Sioux people. I'm asking what that is. I haven't heard many suggestions of what this could be. It's always change the name and then do some other stuff. My questions is what is the other stuff?

[HockeyMom]

What about all of those native american programs??? Well guess what Miss Hispanic American? Those programs were developed by.... Native Americans...IF you have a problem with other minorities getting less, then make your way back to ND, get some grants, and start some programming for your minority interests.  Im sure UND will be glad to find some space for a Hispanic-American Center. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Holy hostility, Batman.

[BigGame]

I would hope some people should be able to put there personal differences aside and look at the big picture, act like adults, and do what is best for the city. Bringing a Casino to town would probably be greater for UND than any nickname.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Doesn't that really depend upon your personal opinion of gambling. I have nothing against a casino in grand forks, but if a tribe is allowed to build a casino off the reservation, why can't a private company or business just open up a casino anyplace it wants?

[iramurphy]

Poor Kupcake,

I almost feel for for that invertebrate.....he pissed off the people for change, with this flip-flopping ways, now FS lovers will dis-own him after he loses this battle..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kracker,

Your recent postings show evidence of your ignorance and racism. I could care less if UND changes the name to the Fighting Irish or leaves it the Fighting Sioux. Your crude remarks about Kuppy go beyond what a self proclaimed tough guy like yourself should be doing. I have never been a big Kupchella fan but to call him names on a board like this shows what you are made of and what you lack. Your previous remarks about the Chippewa artist, Bennet Brien, being a "rabbit choker" is a good example of your racist attitude and inability to process thoughts that might exist other than your own. Your thinly veiled threats to those who disagree with you should they dare come over to the NA cultural center show your propensity for violence (especially if you have the advantage).

If you want the name changed, you and the tribal leaders step up and address the true issues of what your elders and ancestors did years ago. They gave UND permission to use the name. You may disagree with their decision, but to simply ignore that fact is why many people will be angry. If you and the tribal leaders wish it changed, then offer to participate in the change process and assume some of the substantial cost required to make the change. Stop the whining about how you think the UND issue is going to confuse your children about their heritage and raise them with enough pride in their culture to know the difference between racism and an athletic team name that their ancestors thought was a good idea. Raise those kids with a Mom and Dad who are commited to the family and getting those kids a good education. Be an example of what an adult should be so your kids have someone to look up to other than Russell Means, the Bellecourts, Banks etc. If you think this type of reference to Native Americans with athletic teams is derogatory, then change the reservation school names and logos first to show you really are affected and hurt by the use of these names. Quit blaming every wrongdoing and tough break you get in life on others and step up to the plate with something positive and productive. Be grateful to those people both NA and other cultures who have made the sacrifices necessary for you to get an education and increase your chance of success.

You may find that, if in fact, the Native American people are no longer willing to understand our culture and the diversity inherent in our culture, that we will no longer interact with your culture the same. Many will stop going to NA casinos and buying NA products. People like me may stop tutoring NA kids or supporting Native American language progams in our schools. Not because of the Fighting Sioux issue, but because of the hateful and racist way you and others interact with our culture. Not because of any NCAA verdict or ruling but because of the insulting way these tribal leaders and officials have treated our state and University. If in fact these tribal leaders are speaking for the majority of NA, many people will simply avoid the reservations when we can. How is that gong to help your kids? We already face a crisis in the Middle East because of the hate taught children toward those who are different.

You have done your best to convince me and others that we are not welcome to interact with your culture unless it is on your terms and in your time. That is not a healthy relationship in any culture. Does this mean you no longer want us to spend money in your casinos and on the NA products? Do we need to lobby our state officials to allow all of our citizens to be able to open and operate cosinos instead of only the Native Americans? Those are only a couple of the questions I would have asked the group gathered at Spirit Lake gathering.

[BigGame]

Hopefully the Spirit Lake tribe will cave to the political pressure and withdraw any support of the Fighting Sioux nickname.  Once that is done, Indians (not Native Americans, since anyone born in America is a native American) will no longer have any influence on the UND nickname issue. 

UND can then move forward with yesterday's NCAA appeal.  With the tribe support issue taken out of the appeal process the NCAA's decision will stand on it's own merits. 

When the appeal is granted, we can put this issue behind us once and for all!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sweet, I'm native american or maybe I should still be an american. Can I switch back and forth whenever it works to my advantage.

[ESPNInsider]

GROW UP?  Great for GF? So more available gambling is good, we do not need more forms of gambling in the area. So taking money from local charities that have gaming in the bars and giving it to the Indians would be good, especially when most $ from these casinos on the reservations doesn't seem to do much good anyway. These charitable gaming organizations also pay the state millions of dollars in taxes, which the Indian ones wouldn't.

If you don't think that the name opposition doesn't lead to more opposition against letting Indian casinos come into town, then I don't believe you really understand the local people and culture. I'm not saying everyone should or does feel this way, but there sure are a good number of people way they feel this way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So maybe I was a bit harsh in my original post, but that is pathetic if people feel that way. Well, they don't want the University in our town to use their name, so let's not let them build a casino. That's the reason for my "Grow Up" statement. That is acting like a kindergartner. Most rational human beings would look at each separately and I would expect the GF City Council to do so. (although they aren't always so rational)

I still think the casino would be of benefit to GF. Not only personally for the residents who need to drive to DL, TRF, or Mahnomen, but for the people that would now come to town. You think that people from Fargo would rather go to Wahp or Mahnomen or GF. I think that's pretty easy. Go up, hit a Sioux athletic event, hit the casino, hit the bars and restaurants, stay in a hotel. $$$ I know part of the concern was that the casino would build a hotel and that would have to be squashed. The tribe did say that they had no plans for a hotel. That would have to be written into the agreement, although, I believe that as soon as it is ok'd the tribe basically has all rights on the land. Some agreement would be needed.

[ScottM]

Now some of you bring up the argument that the Sioux dont call themselves Sioux. They call themselves Lakota/Nakota/or Dakota. They are both. There are lots of tribes that have multiple references to what they are called. For example the US calls many natives in Arizona the Navajo. They call themselves Dine'. Does that make them less Navajo? no. Same goes for Ojibwe/Chippewa/Anishanabe just that one is what other people called them and one is what they call themselves. It isn't one or the other. It is arguing for a technicality while avoiding the issue.

No, the "issue" is that some of these people want to have it both ways. They say they don't call themselves "Sioux", but they represent themselves as such by official means, and then decry the use of a name they say they don't use because their little feelings are all hurt. If it hurts so damn bad, don't do it. Cripes, it's a f**kin' wonder their forebears didn't starve to death after getting pushed out of the woods with that type of self-pity. Red Cloud must be spinning in embarrassment.

Find a name, stick with it across the board and quit whining about a name that you say doesn't represent you. Good grief, if this argument was presented to a judge, they'd get thrown out on their ears. Frankly, the name "Sioux" is so far out in the public domain, you can probably use it for anything, as witnessed by the number of hits on the USPTO website.

[HockeyMom]

CNN Headline News just said that the University of North Dakota hasn't held up their part of their agreement with the Spirit Lake Nation regarding the Fighting Sioux nickname.

[PCM]

In the segment about the Spirit Lake Resolution, Lynquist says that UND should get rid of the name and find other ways to honor Sioux people.  I'm asking what that is.  I haven't heard many suggestions of what this could be.  It's always change the name and then do some other stuff.  My questions is what is the other stuff?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Have you thoroughly read this? It drives home what Kuchella said in his open letter to the NCAA:

"I've found after six years here that this is a debate that has opponents on one side and proponents on the other. Both groups made up their minds a long time ago, and no amount of talking seems to change very many people, if any, from one side of the issue to the other."

[IowaBison]

No, the "issue" is that some of these people want to have it both ways. They say they don't call themselves "Sioux", but they represent themselves as such by official means, and then decry the use of a name they say they don't use because their little feelings are all hurt. If it hurts so damn bad, don't do it. Cripes, it's a f**kin' wonder their forebears didn't starve to death after getting pushed out of the woods with that type of self-pity. Red Cloud must be spinning in embarrassment.

Find a name, stick with it across the board and quit whining about a name that you say doesn't represent you. Good grief, if this argument was presented to a judge, they'd get thrown out on their ears. Frankly, the name "Sioux" is so far out in the public domain, you can probably use it for anything, as witnessed by the number of hits on the USPTO website.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's a lot like black folks and the n-word.

[Diggler]

Have you thoroughly read this? It drives home what Kuchella said in his open letter to the NCAA:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nope. I have laughed at it though. When any website has this:

loses it's credibility on discussing an issue rationally.

Actually, I've read a little bit on the BRIDGES website, but since a good number of their links lead to page not found, it is rather difficult to find any answers to my question.

[IowaBison]

CNN Headline News just said that the University of North Dakota hasn't held up their part of their agreement with the Spirit Lake Nation regarding the Fighting Sioux nickname.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bad Press:Tribe fights !?!

Same Story in the SF Chronicle

Negative Story in the Trib (not related to the SLN)