Media Stories on the Sioux Name

[sioux7>5]

Hey PCM Josh responded to your letter on the Double A zone:

[ScottM]

Let me get this straight, it is OK for the NCAA to make money from using a sponser like Pontiac. But they think it is wrong to cheer for a team with a name no different then Pontiac. The NCAA just does not get it. UND uses the name Fighting Sioux with Pride and Dignity. They use the sponser for money, which is worse. I honestly think that the NCAA could take a lesson from UND on how other schools should use a Native American nicknames. Sorry for the rant. This is just my opinion and I could be wrong, but I doubt it!

As well as for the NC$$ to make money from the schools' names/logos who it has originally deemed "hostile or abusive", whether they've received a dispensation from Herr Brand or not. Apparently, if you give enough money to the NC$$ you can do what you want.

[Chewey]

[PCM]

Here's an interesting item from GF Herald sports editor Keven Fee's blog, Fee Throws:

From the believe it or not department: UND athletic director Tom Buning was never greeted by Dartmouth College athletic director Josie Harper at the Ledyard National Bank Classic last week in Hanover, N.H.

Buning said he did talk with a senior associate athletic director during the awards ceremony after the tournament. This same person stood behind Buning most of the time during the two-day tournament.

Buning sat right below the press box with his green suit on. Wonder if they knew who he was? They knew he wasn't a member of the Dartmouth Big Green club.

Someone might want to tell the president of Dartmouth that's no way to treat a visiting AD.

[Goon]

Thanks. I assumed that they were under one of the topics directly related to the nickname issue.

Sorry PCM that was posted for the main page that it was on. I should have been more specific. I will never let it happen again

[The Sicatoka]

Here's an interesting item from GF Herald sports editor Keven Fee's blog, Fee Throws:

What's with the "shadow" treatment?

[Goon]

What's with the "shadow" treatment?

Maybe Bunning should have looked for her and made a point to show her what a rude __%^ she was being. I am sick and tired of these petty empty shirts. I would have had the Media right behind me recording how petty she was being. I am sure the Dartmouth Review will be on this one.

[PCM]

Sorry PCM that was posted for the main page that it was on. I should have been more specific.

GeauxSioux gave me the link. I submitted a response, but it hasn't been posted yet.

I will never let it happen again

Yeah, and I also believed it when Zach Parise promised me he would never miss scoring on a breakaway again.

[Riverman]

Here's an interesting item from GF Herald sports editor Keven Fee's blog, Fee Throws:

That's odd she did an interview on the web cast me and a few friends watched...

[Siouxmama]

That's odd she did an interview on the web cast me and a few friends watched...

I saw the interview, too. Not a word mentioned about the visiting teams or the name controversy. She was there, so she had every opportunity to visit with whatever AD's were in attendance.

[Goon]

Yeah, and I also believed it when Zach Parise promised me he would never miss scoring on a breakaway again.

Has to go through the Handliers, I was tired when I got home from work last night at Mid Night it will never happen again today .

[PCM]

My comments to Josh Centor at the NCAA's Double-A Zone blog were posted here.

Josh, while I appreciate that you recognize some of the inconsistencies in the NCAA

[sioux7>5]

My comments to Josh Centor at the NCAA's Double-A Zone blog were posted here.

[Goon]

My comments to Josh Centor at the NCAA's Double-A Zone blog were posted here.

[Goon]

Joe's Dartblog article check it out.

This makes for an interesting read.

[ScottM]

Go Pat!!!

[dagies]

I'm pretty sure I'm never going to get into a public written pissing match with PCM on a subject he's passionate about.

[Sioux-cia]

What's with the "shadow" treatment?

To protect the masses from any possible 'hostile and abusive' behavior that out AD may have been compelled to exhibit.

[Goon]

To protect the masses from any possible 'hostile and abusive' behavior that out AD may have been compelled to exhibit.

I suppose that is probably from all the push ups and cheers that he has been doing. I think their AD is a hack, I have talked with Bunning a few times and I have to say that I am impressed with the COL Bunning. I sure she would have been out of her league.

[Riverman]

I'm pretty sure I'm never going to get into a public written pissing match with PCM on a subject he's passionate about.

Yikes!

[Gothmog]

My comments to Josh Centor at the NCAA's Double-A Zone blog were posted here.

[The Sicatoka]

Good try 'mog, but not quite.

The NCAA stated (letter to UND, Aug 9, 2005):

It is the responsibility of everyone associated with an intercollegiate athletics program and event ... to establish an environment of respect for and sensitivity to the the dignity of every person.

The same folks that don't like "Sioux" can't like a great Ottawa chief like Pontiac's name tied to a car, and especially when the car uses a (stereotypical) arrowhead logo trademark.

Yet, the NCAA has chosen Pontiac as an official sponsor which clearly flies in the face of "respect for and sensitivity to the the dignity of every person".

" ... everyone associated with an intercollegiate athletics ..." indeed.

[Gothmog]

Good try 'mog, but not quite.

The NCAA stated (letter to UND, Aug 9, 2005):

The same folks that don't like "Sioux" can't like a great Ottawa chief like Pontiac's name tied to a car, and especially when the car uses a (stereotypical) arrowhead logo trademark.

Yet, the NCAA has chosen Pontiac as an official sponsor which clearly flies in the face of "respect for and sensitivity to the the dignity of every person".

" ... everyone associated with an intercollegiate athletics ..." indeed.

Well, you're probably right that the NCAA should not accept advertising money from GM if there really is significant opposition to GM's use of the word "Pontiac" (I'm not so sure that any such opposition exists outside this board).

The point is that the moral and ethical case against UND's nickname would not be invalidated by the NCAA's hypocrisy in other matters.

[PCM]

PCM, your "Pontiac" analogy is false. "Pontiac" was the name of an individual not a group. Using an individual's name many decades after his death may be questionable, perhaps even offensive, but it really doesn't seem to be quite the same thing as appropriating the name of an existing group of living people. Especially when there is a clear record of opposition to the use of that name from members of that group, and many other highly respected organizations. GM naming a car the "Douglass", after Frederick Douglass, would not compare to an historically white public university, in an overwhelmingly white state, nicknaming its athletic teams the "Fighting Blacks" for example.

In any case, the NCAA exists only to organize and regulate college sports, not automobile manufacturers. If you really do have a problem with the name "Pontiac", talk to General Motors not the NCAA.

Hey, Gothmog, a descendent of the Goths called. He wants to know when he gave you permission to appropriate his tribal name. (Hat tip to The Sicatoka.)

And, yes, I can complain to the NCAA about its use of Pontiac as a sponsor because the organization's leadership made the decision to do it. Even when the NCAA granted exemptions to certain schools that have tribal permission to use their names for their athletic teams, the association contended that the practice is wrong. The NCAA has also said that using any symbol or word related to American Indians -- no matter how generic they might be -- is wrong and violates its policy. Clearly, in applying the policy, the NCAA has not limited its application to specific tribal names or symbols or to complaints from specific tribes or organizations.

Look, you can play all the semantics games you want, but the entire argument revolves around a single core idea: Anything that belonged to or originated with American Indian culture, traditions, heritage, religion, etc. is owned by them and non-Indians cannot have it or use it. To do so represents "cultural genocide."

I don't care if we're talking about the Fighting Sioux nickname, Bear Butte, LaFramboise Island, the Black Hills, Devils Tower, dream catchers, Crazy Horse Malt Liquor, American Indian religious practices, artwork, a mountain carved in the likeness of Crazy Horse, eagle feathers, ancient skeletal remains, artifacts, beadwork, words or whatever. The argument from American Indian activists has always been the same, and the cotroversy over UND's use of the Fighting Sioux nickname stems directly from that core argument.

Either you buy that argument or you don't. The NCAA can't condemn one of its members for using an American Indian name and image at the same time it's accepting millions of dollars from a company doing the exact same thing. No matter how you attempt to portray it, spin it, sugar-coat, rationalize or excuse it, the NCAA is blatantly hypocritical.

[Gothmog]

Hey, Gothmog, a descendent of the Goths called. He wants to know when he gave you permission to appropriate his tribal name. (Hat tip to The Sicatoka.)

And, yes, I can complain to the NCAA about its use of Pontiac as a sponsor because the organization's leadership made the decision to do it. Even when the NCAA granted exemptions to certain schools that have tribal permission to use their names for their athletic teams, the association contended that the practice is wrong. The NCAA has also said that using any symbol or word related to American Indians -- no matter how generic they might be -- is wrong and violates its policy. Clearly, in applying the policy, the NCAA has not limited its application to specific tribal names or symbols or to complaints from specific tribes or organizations.

Look, you can play all the semantics games you want, but the entire argument revolves around a single core idea: Anything that belonged to or originated with American Indian culture, traditions, heritage, religion, etc. is owned by them and non-Indians cannot have it or use it. To do so represents "cultural genocide."

I don't care if we're talking about the Fighting Sioux nickname, Bear Butte, LaFramboise Island, the Black Hills, Devils Tower, dream catchers, Crazy Horse Malt Liquor, American Indian religious practices, artwork, a mountain carved in the likeness of Crazy Horse, eagle feathers, ancient skeletal remains, artifacts, beadwork, words or whatever. The argument from American Indian activists has always been the same, and the cotroversy over UND's use of the Fighting Sioux nickname stems directly from that core argument.

Either you buy that argument or you don't. The NCAA can't condemn one of its members for using an American Indian name and image at the same time it's accepting millions of dollars from a company doing the exact same thing. No matter how you attempt to portray it, spin it, sugar-coat, rationalize or excuse it, the NCAA is blatantly hypocritical.

First, "Gothmog" actually comes from the books of JRR Tolkien. He may, or may not, have gotten the idea from the tribe to which you refer.

Second, You certainly can complain to the NCAA about anything you want. My point is that the NCAA's hypocrisy is completely irrelevant to the question "Does UND have the right to use the nickname 'Sioux'." That's why this lawsuit is such a waste - it simply cannot resolve the issue. Win or lose, as long as Native Americans generally object to the nickname, UND has a problem. No amount of whinning about the big bad NCAA will ever change that. Your efforts to convince people that the NCAA is wrong, hypocritical, stupid, silly...are all in vain.