Who Scores More Points This Year?

[sagard]

Toews, on the other hand, is a relative unknown.  We know that a few years ago he was considered among the top handful of Canadian forwards his age, and that he was the top pick in the WHL draft then.  Since then, he's toiled in relative obscurity in Faribault, MN.  (I know Shattuck is scouted, but it's nothing like the US program and the US WJC team for exposure.)  The big question is, when he reappears, in a big-time hockey sense, this Fall in Grand Forks: Is he still one of the elite hockey players his age in North America?  If so, then this might end up being a worthy discussion.

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I know it's risky projecting players without knowing their roles as freshmen. But given their common Shattuck background and all being either 1st round NHL picks or projected high 1st round picks I expect Toews to be in between these two.

Zach Parise 26 35 61

Drew Stafford 11 21 32

It's a pretty wide gap, but it think it does set a realistic ceiling and floor to what his production will be.

[Fetch]

Does DU have their goalie back ?

[sagard]

Does DU have their goalie back ?

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Both of them. That's why I have them pegged at a 40+ win season.

[Cardinal]

Both of them. That's why I have them pegged at a 40+ win season.

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Off topic, but DU loses more than you'd think, unless sagard was being facetious.

Fulghum (42 pts.), Drummond (39 pts.), Ulanski (33 pts.), Foster (29 pts.), and also two defensemen (Laatsch and Halme) who were rocks on the blueline.

[jk]

That's why I have them pegged at a 40+ win season. 

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So, you're just trying to take the pressure off MN? Denver has four with MN and four with CC, plus the regular tough WCHA schedule. (I would mention that they also have four with UND, but that doesn't exactly appear to be a problem for Denver.) Despite the terrific players they return, I can't imagine them winning 40 games.

[redwing77]

Off topic, but DU loses more than you'd think, unless sagard was being facetious.

Fulghum (42 pts.), Drummond (39 pts.), Ulanski (33 pts.), Foster (29 pts.), and also two defensemen (Laatsch and Halme) who were rocks on the blueline.

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There is also huge scuttlebutt going around that San Jose may try to sign Carle.

In any case, sagard, what you say makes sense. However, jk, I do have this question for you:

If Shattuck is viewed as a point of obscurity, then how come Stafford, Smaby, Parise, Thelen and even the pre-Rimouski Crosby had so much hype to them? Sure, Kessel and Parise were members of the WJC team, but Toews has had his share of international competition. I don't think Toews is as unknown as you think. He just didn't go to a marquis program like the NTDP. Does Canada even have something like that outside of major juniors (meaning, something that does wipe out college eligibilty?)

[tnt]

I have seen Kessel play approximately 10 games with the evaluation camp and World Juniors, and my assessment is that he is more weighted towards the offensive end. I would not say that I wouldn't want him for that reason or that I would rather have Toews for that reason. I have only seen Toews play twice and I guess I can't say one way or another if he is a great two-way player based on that. I think that is always a knee-jerk reaction by fans when one player is better offensively, they ultimately get the one-way player tag. I don't know anyone who wouldn't have wanted Kessel on the World Junior team because he wasn't as dedicated to the defensive end. If Kessel was going to be a Sioux, Sioux fans would be touting him as the next coming and gopher fans would be saying he didn't play defense. Unfortunately, or maybe not, it is how fans operate on both sides of the debate.

[redwing77]

I have seen Kessel play approximately 10 games with the evaluation camp and World Juniors, and my assessment is that he is more weighted towards the offensive end.  I would not say that I wouldn't want him for that reason or that I would rather have Toews for that reason.  I have only seen Toews play twice and I guess I can't say one way or another if he is a great two-way player based on that.  I think that is always a knee-jerk reaction by fans when one player is better offensively, they ultimately get the one-way player tag.  I don't know anyone who wouldn't have wanted Kessel on the World Junior team because he wasn't as dedicated to the defensive end.  If Kessel was going to be a Sioux, Sioux fans would be touting him as the next coming and gopher fans would be saying he didn't play defense.  Unfortunately, or maybe not, it is how fans operate on both sides of the debate.

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That's fair enough. When I saw Toews play, he was 15 or 16. I saw him against the Team Minnesota (or some sort of hodgepodge all star team) high school team at the Ralph He played really well, but I don't recall him scoring (Duncan scored, that much I know). However, he seemed extremely good in all of the other facets of the game when I watched him. He was fast, sure skated, solid on his skates, he forechecked, backchecked, had good physical presence.

However, that was only one tourney and not an entire season.

It would be hard to say how I would feel if Kessel was a Sioux recruit. I am not the kind of fan who enjoys only the offensive side of the game, so maybe my opinion would still be the same. I don't know.

[sagard]

[jk]

RW, For me it's a two-fold question: Who have they played against, and in front of whom? Kessel played against the best Under-20s in the world, drafted players. He was, in effect, weighed and measured, and not found wanting. And this was done in front of millions.

Toews played against "midgets." And though he was seen by important people like scouts, he wasn't seen by millions, or the press. Hence the absence of hype.

My point isn't that Toews isn't as good, it's that we don't know. To your question of SSM's obscurity, I meant it in a relative sense, in comparison to playing on international television. The hype that was attached to all of the prospects you named does not in the aggregate approach Mr. Kessel's hype, IMO.

[Sioux_Hab-it]

I know it's risky projecting players without knowing their roles as freshmen.  But given their common Shattuck background and all being either 1st round NHL picks or projected high 1st round picks I expect Toews to be in between these two.

Zach Parise      26 35 61

Drew Stafford  11 21 32

It's a pretty wide gap, but it think it does set a realistic ceiling and floor to what his production will be.

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Wishful thinking on your part Sagard as all of Toews numbers indicate that he will score like Parise and will be a more complete package to boot. He was the top player at last years U17 and how about comparing his scoring to that of Parise while at SSM (nearly identical). You can have your little hot-shot media hog while we get a hockey player

[Cardinal]

[siouxnami]

Isn't Toews basically a year younger than Kessel?

[cavedurtis]

[#1Hakfan]

They are both great players. when people think of Kessel they remember him blowing by the Swiss defensemen all night long at the world juniors. Those Dman probably couldn't play for Williston High. But Kessel is a great player with Jason Blake type speed and when he is going fast he puts it into a higher gear and can go faster.

Toews is a great player, very smart, great passer and yes he is a 88 and Kessel is a 87. I bet if Toews playes with a Spirko or Stafford he will be in the mid to high 50's and flirt with 60. I cant wait to see Toews. Getting to watch players like him is why hockey is the greatest game in the world.

Kessel will have a lot of points for sure because of the easy nonconfrence schedule and there power play percentage is always higher because they have more room to work it. He will benefit from playing on an olympic sized ice sheet. But he would also score a lot anywhere he goes because he is good. But don't call him the best american player ever until he has at least one nhl season under his belt. That is insulting to Modano.

I suppose in a year or two Jordan Schroeder will commit to Minnesota the gopher fans will think he is the Greatest PLAYER ever.

[tnt]

I guess one thing I will be looking for from both players are the intangibles -- the refuse to lose quality that a Crosby has for example. When their team is behind a goal late in the game, who is going to dig harder to get the puck out of a scrum and walk out of the corner with it, or who is going to inspire their teammates by example and giving themselves up for the benefit of a teammate. Let's hope Kessel has a chance to prove himself more than Toews on being behind late in the game. I would have loved to see more of that from Kessel in the World Juniors, but it's not as if the older USA players were leading by example in that scenario, so one can't fault a 17-year-old in those same circumstances. One thing I think will become clear as the year goes by-- Sioux fan's will be touting the intangibles, and gopher fans will be touting the points being put up, and I don't think either will be wrong for doing so -- it's what we as fans do. But can we at least agree to give credit where credit is due!

[Handyman]

First of all, this claim that Gopher fans are pumping up Kessel is ludicrous. Kessel has been the talk of American Hockey for what 3 years now? He was being touted long before he committed to Minnesota, so lets not act like the hype is all Gopher based. Hell it was Sconnie based way more than Gopher based, until it became clear he would rather join a convent than play for Eaves Gopher fans are excited, but they arent even close to the reason that Kessel is the household name he is right now.

Second, not to be insulting, but for all intents and purposes the Parise vs. Vanek debate is a wash. Parise had the better all around game but Vanek won the big games. I loved watching Parise (Bochenski more but I digress) and loved watching Vanek, but I wouldnt have traded Thomas for Zach. Thomas' freshmen year was nothing short of outstanding and his clutch goals made up for his lack of defense.

I havent seen Toews play, and only seen bits of Kessel play so I have no clue who will be better. But some of the excuses put forth in this thread as to why Kessel might outscore Toews are unfounded. Who cares anyway, if Toews has 10 less goals but leads you to a title will it matter how much he scored? Hell I dont care if Kessel scores only 1 goal all year if that 1 goal is in Milwaukee

[schmidtdoggydog]

Hell I dont care if Kessel scores only 1 goal all year if that 1 goal is in Milwaukee

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As long as it is scored during a loss, that will be fine with me.

[Duluth_East_Hockey_Man]

It was a tough choice for me, but I think Kessel will.

[#1Hakfan]

This is from some Canadien newspaper on Toews leading the Canadien under 18's.

Forwards Jonathan Toews of Winnipeg, Brad Marchand of Halifax and Sheppard were among the leading scorers at the World Under-17 Hockey Challenge in Lethbridge, Alta., in January in a tournament that featured regional squads from Canada in an international field.

Toews, who will play for the University of North Dakota this fall, was the leading scorer in the tournament and also scored the winning goal for Team West in the final.

So the six-foot-two, 185-pound forward is expected to be a top producer for Canada in the Junior World Cup.

"There's a lot of pressure to perform, but I don't look at it that way," Toews said. "It's a great opportunity to play with the best players in Canada for my age.

"I think our team is going to do great at this tournament. We've got a bunch of hard workers, a bunch of great guys on the team so I'm going to go out there and do the best I can and see what we can do to bring home a gold medal."

www.slam.canoe.ca Click on Hockey and scroll down to under 18's